Liam

You both make good points MJY and Arado. Both in SC1 and in SC2 there is varying outcomes due to the Play on both the Allied and Axis side, so this in mind, you're not seeing the bigger picture. I played many games in both SC1 and 2 where I could likely take England. Usually this meant 1 of 2 things, I was overextended and I lost the game to the Russian Army or I won... Literally, what you both predict happens when the Allies are played properly, but when the allies are not, then the game is over. There you go... There is no way for a successful Sea Lion in either game unless the Axis have an Uber Sea Strategy or Amazing luck, there will always be tremendous loss of life for the Axis, who historically had limited Divisions. Had Stalin known that 50-75% of German divisions were halted up on Isles and in North Africa it is believable to think he would invade. The only portion of SC2 that was weak, is the fact he doesn't immediately. Though as I said, losing England is no strategy at all, it's only for the meek plays. Now, after Barbarossa, it's quite possible if the Axis are rich enough, but at this point the game is already decided. If it's that easy the Allies are again weak. What I must agree with, with both of you is that there is no real gain for the Island. It's historically inaccurate in that the Axis would've lumped out a ton of Coal-Industry. Probably installed a Puppet Government and confiscated a portion of the Royal Navy. Egypt is not a fall back point but abstractly representing the Rebellious Imminent Threat of Loyal Generals, Government Exile of the Largest Empire in the World and one of the Most Power. Stalin would've never surrendered to Nazi Germany, nor would the USA. It would've been a fight to the death and to accurately represent their gearing for War, Production 5 and IT 3 on both sides the minute Sea Lion is performed would be accurate. It is not easy to retake England, the Ampibious Limitations of SC2 means that if properly garrisoned England is German for the rest of the game, the Amphib-capabilities of WW2 were not that great. Though the USSR can still outproduce Germany but win, I doubt. Stalemate likely Turkey and Spain joining the Axis would've meant very little... The USSR and USA cojointly fighting Germany is the outcome in my mind, working in Harmony toward 1 goal. Though I could be wrong, and perhaps one side would've sought a Diplomatic End... The Political aspect is indeed invisible in SC2 and I think because of the Unknown factor of what now?

Well Done

Heh, this time Rambo is a bloody man. The movie may get issues getting ratings lots of Blood. "YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!" BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG There was 1st Blood Part 1 now there is Even More Blood At least American Heroes from the 80s are back

All major powers possessed about the same construction ability. One way or the other... Either through slave labour or advanced engineering Gary Grigsby had this feature, annoying micromanagement as does HOI Not a SC quality or trait In my opinion

jadam, first of all, never ever transfer money to a bank account # of any kind! What you need to do first, get a grand total Price for the game with shipping from Martin. Goto your local Hungarian Bank and they will help you make out an "International Money Order," Then you must mail this to the address Martin provides and there you go. You might want to call your Hungarian Bank First, if you're in Budapest you'll have in issues, it's a HUGE city with lots of Options for you. You don't even need a bank account just the Hungarian Cash in Hand or Euros these days

Adam, rare that Hungary doesn't allow Paypal transfers. I have some various Ideas for you from my Poker Gambling Days. Hungary has some immense Hacking along with the rest of of Eastern Europe/Russia/China so I'll try to help the best I can. You will need a Hungarian Debit Card or Checking Account To use this feature likely. though: 1. https://www.epassporte.com/ this is a virtual online Visa that will issue you a card # to purchase anything on-line. However only worth it if you have a CC or a ATM Card. They have a surcharge of $5.00 per transaction 2. A Bank issued Money Order from a Hungarian Bank or better yet, if you live in a major city use a Foreign Bank like a French-British-Canadian-US Bank that will make it easier for Battlefront to Cash. It will have to be International. 3. Neteller.COM which was a company that got busted by the American FEDs but it back up in Business issues ATMs. ATMs which could automatically buy the game on-line It's like a Debit or Credit Card so it would be fine... 4. http://www.creditcards.com/prepaid.php just a few examples of PrePaids Get a prepaid Debit or Credit Card, if you've a valid bank account I see no reason why not. It's the easiest in the World to do. Get a GreenDot or whatever Hungarians sell. If not get one online... Type in Google Search and find the best deal and the deal that will work for Hungary and you should be in like Flynn. Mind you all the charges for all the above items do pee you off a little. But that's life... The most secure method of all is to get a Prepaid or get a Money Order... Make sure to get all the Foreign Exchange right if you do it yourself and if you have further issues just let me know there is no reason you can't be up and running with this game in 2 weeks! I've sold to Austria-Italy-France-UK and EVEN Hong Kong and Malaysia

However that is not naval combat may turn out. Some Ships, like Destroyers are specialized and carry Torpedoes and moving at fast speeds and are meant to sneak attack Ships. I.E. What they did in the Naval Battles in the Leyte, I think it was the Surigao Straits where the Japs brought up this massive fleet and the US Sent in their fast moving Torpedo Boats to just launch endless waves of Torpedoes and the big ships never had a chance. Would be like seeing the Italian/German Fleet in SC2 Smoosh itself against a Metal reef Various Weapons of War are varied... Even at sea, what might be used may be a Mine, it might be a torpedo, it might be a Naval Bomb... Lots of ways to die...

Yes, fellows it's a tough thing to implement. However you both can see the value. As Paras-Engineers have FOW protection it is invaluable or they'd all be picked off like sitting ducks. Part of my reason for raising this topic is again the humdrum I see your Barby Force, here it comes, "Whoa!" I gotta run... If for instance I did see it but an elaborate Hoax was created, and what really was going on was a Massive High Tech Amphibious Fleet landing on London, then that would change the whole Enchilada. Historically speaking, one might say English Intel would've caught this! Though actually, it might not have... If proper Recon wasn't done, if Intelligence wasn't invested into and if a few slip ups happened who knows. One could say D-Day was highly preventable, those Panzers in the rear would've rolled over our Doughboys like Dough. But Hitler held them back, not because he was dumb but because, "Calais, Calais!" The REAL invasion Perhaps certain large large operations should be more detectable, as they were. How can you hide 3 thousand tanks or 1000 Barges? But, my deep feelings and I'll reiterate them is that I know what my opponent will do normally 95% of the time. I post a cheap recon or lookout Corps-ship-plane and there you go. There is no skill here and it's not at all accurate. The Entire Pacific Fleet sat there while they were mauled because the Japanese caught them with perfect clarity, at Midway the complete reverse. The Whole War was about this constant back and forth action. Anyway... You get my drift but it would be nice to break away from some of the predictability and add in an element of I JUST DON'T KNOW... or better yet, I KNOW EVERYTHING! Something both sides faced continually, and it would add to the depth and interests of the game. I've never read that book, but I'm sure Stalin was a bit wiser than some make him out to be. What else were 3 million German Troops doing, entertaining Norwegian girls?

It's true, the cracking of their code unveiled much. It was however still difficult, codes get changed. Certain aspects of communications were carried through Ultra. As flakey as Hitler was as a General, and he was the GHC HeadMan from about late '42 on... It would be hard to predict what he might do or change. Depending on the Stars, Sun, what not... The Lucy Spy Ring, picked up the info on Kursk, allowing Stalin to dig-in reinforce. Montgomery setup decoys in the Desert to fool Rommel and it happened again with Patton's Ghost Army. These are just a few of the instances in WW2! Papers that contained the entire D-Day landing were blown out into the STREETS outside of Allied Command for the whole world to see. So much information and misinformation, intel counter-intel happened... Point being all in all, when 1 army showed up on a border pre-DOW USSR had no idea and no possibility other than to cross the border to see what was there and even then, it was partially invisible. In SC2 you see an HQ, 1 fighter, some Land Armies and you know the whole bloody Country is coming. If you had a variant in this, either being visible or invisible then it would be reflective on history. A player would have to prepare for whatever and predictability would be put out. Which can bore a game

Fleet Commander Experience would play a role with the overall individual and some luck. You assume since there are no Fleet HQs that the Fleets are automatically lead by the best men available. Midway was about tactical, recon, errors, luck, etc... The Japanese code was broken, the Americans deployed perfectly. The Japanese were not expecting to face off with 3 Carriers and I don't believe from what I recall, had any expectations of a carrier-carrier duel Really in spotting, AirSupremacy-Longe Range-Intel would all play a greater role than Command Experience, not to say it wouldn't play a role, it would As for AA on BBs... A limit would be okay, since Level5 AA on Ships would not quite work well. Resources are large as are cities and can pack up. But some protection from the Air could be afforded by improved AA guns... And believe me many MANY men lost their lives trying to attack Ships in WW2. Fleet Escort Carriers played a role too... Their air supremacy as Bill mentioned or their mere presence meant spotting alone! Let alone a few fighter planes to battle of NavalBombers

After having played Strategic Command 2 a great deal, and I've yet to upgrade but I shall. I have come to noticed something. A strategic limitation with the new Tactical aspect to the game. I know I will get barked at for pointing this out and some may disagree but it is a primarily limiting factor to the Poker-bluff aspect of SC2. Probably stretching into WAW. You should not know every move that is being made by your opponent and limiting FOW doesn't help. Similarly you should be fed misinformation because they never knew every move that was being made. This is War, and it's confusing... Bluffing, faking-out was used compulsory in every great Generals Agenda. Since the game is not SC1 and is not on a tactical level, this is the new age in my opinion. Intel-CounterIntel. We need to be more confused, to be more alert and to make the game more unpredictable but yet more realistic

Historically the outcome would've been probably fair casualties and there goes the Island. The Germans had a ton of barges ready to go. Lots of Gliders and a lot of Morale after France. I almost feel it was an imperative with the offensive mindset and the short industrial power of Germany and the ultimate strategic situation of it to take that little Island. So in my opinion Germany could not have won WW2 without first taking England... Going after USSR without it was fighting a two front war Now as far as SC2 is concerned unless it's so easy and cheap to do, it's not worth doing. If anyone makes it that easy, it's likely meaning the game is over or they've switched to North Africa. Really Africa should be a fall back not a strategy. Losing the Island should give the Germans a boost in MPPs, but since the early patches of SC2 the Creators have been trying to make it more difficult and less a gamey takedown. It's hard to simulate the actual SeaLion without ruining the game. Anyway, Fighting in North Africa has it's advantages, but taking England really does not in SC2 terms... As you're getting a Readiness Spike in the USSR and USA and you still have to fight for Egypt to win what, 1000 MPPs? Why bother! He'll get the MiddleEast all of North Africa and Supply 8, with that and a screening fleet, invading there is no fun, just as bad as England. As for England, 20-30 MPPs with Ireland just doesn't make it the Economic Powerhouse payoff it should feel like? It's like Owning Benelux when it produced thousands bombers, fighters and Tanks a year! Richer Industry than Italy or France

If a pilot matured at the age of 18 in 1944, he was trained during the war. Experienced Gained During the war mattered a great deal to Naval Aviators and any type of Aviator, I'm sure. I do not see how it could be any other way. As you see WW2, was unlike current times, Pre-WW2 the study of Airforce-vs-Navy was in it's enfancy. As for spotting I'm not sure if Experience would effect that. Certainly a better pilot spots better. Perhaps Increased LR capability should enhance spotting rather than Experience. Meaning Longer Up there more likely to spot Good ideas guys but I'm thinking this likely going to go into a patch wayyyy down the road

Good idea, those Ships were bristling with massive AA guns. Usually the end result is that a determined group of planes will get the job done but AA would cost a lot of lives. P.S. Certain kinds of planes are more vulnerable to AA attack from ships. Bombers certainly aren't but DBs yes and Torpedo planes yes... So Carrier Born Aircraft and DBs should be penalized with such a tech. Similarly you could have a tech, Naval Bombing that increased their accuracy and equipment

Moonslayer the one thing may be if your opponent plays Axis slowly, that means lower USSR readiness and naturally less units. Though the aggressive Axis players out there will raise your Readiness-MPPs to build lots... So may just be that ...

My usual Russian Layout by August 1941 for the USSR in a Vanilla SC2 Game. 3-4 Tanks, the 6 initial starting armies, usually no more armies right off. 12-14 Corps 1 possibly 2 HQs if my IT and Production Hits well. The 1st Fighter, plus an additional Bomber/Fighter depending on my mood. The only difference in all this if I hit IW and AT well, I will build more Armies instead of more tanks, which will mean 4-5 fully upgraded Armies. On top of all this 1 Engineer working fortifying key positions... Doesn't seem off to me

The British were divided up between the Atlantic, protecting the Home Island, The Mediterranean Ocean and what little it could do in the Pacific. The Germans were actually using their Resources worse. Bismark had no practical use. A big ship is a big target... All the Great Big ships and Legendary Ones were pretty much obsolete by WW2's end as we know Taranto and Pearl changed the whole game. 1 tiny little Aircraft can do what 500 salvos can do and with little effort

HC is right, it's a hypothetical investment. Though many of SC2's qualities are hypothetical. Also we should support this as it's making the game more GeoPolitical, even if a inch... and less ETO Isolated.

There were mistakes. Otherwise the story might very well have been different. The Rest of the fleet didn't do as they were supposed to do

I have always heard that the Hood was a BattleCruiser, Admiral Class. However I always hear the statement, BattleCruiser to me strikes me as a big ship with big guns... So to class her as a Battleship when almost every resource classes her as less, seems a bit weird. BUT, she had a MASSIVE escort fleet in tow, which meant she was probably operating much like a BB, so SC reference to her as a BB is no real issue. Any other tactical game would likely make her a BC, but the term doesn't exist in SC2 so they pick what she's closest to. Though by the way, her Admiral had a good plan to approach the Bismark and Eugen frontally, with 50 Knots closing, so that her vulnerable deck couldn't be fired on by Bismark...Also to engage Bismark at Night which favored British tactics. Also when the Fighting came down to it, the Prince of Wales should've lead the charge rather than the Hood, with a better armored Deck to take on most of the Fire...

From what I heard on the Discovery channel about the Hood Design is that the Deck was not thick enough because in WW1 physics didn't take into account the way a shell would land and where most of the armor should be... For it's time a great Ship but good by both WW1 and WW2 standards as you said.....merely vulnerable to Science. Therefore The Hood was doomed if hit by the wrong type of Salvo Hood was better protected than the Queen Elizabeth class battleships. Her main belt was 12" - QE's was 11". Hood's extensions were 5-6", QE's were 4-6". Hood had a mid belt of 7" lacking in the QE's, and their various armoured decks (each had 3) were virtually identical in simple terms with 1-2" +/- in the top 2 and up to 3" in the lower one. Turret face armour was 15" each, Hood had lighter side armour (11" to 13") but slightly heavier turret roof armour (5" to 4.25") "WW1 engines" is a crock.....the KGV class was 4 knots slower nominally (28 vs 32) on 19,000 less HP - 125,000 to 144,000, but also weighed in at 6000 tons less (42,000 tons vs 48,000). By comparison Iowa's got 33 kts from 58,000 tons full load (ie as a measure of size, they probably didn't get that speed when they were at 58,000 tons!) but took 215,000 hp to do it even with vastly superior hull designs. Hood was fast because she was designed long and slim - the classic shape for a fast ship - and had plenty of hp. All in all Hood was pretty much the ultimate in WW1 era battleships....but that was her trouble - she was a WW1 battleship........any WW1 battleship might have blown up if hit as Hood was....it is unfortunate that it was Hood with its inter-war myth of invincibility that did so.....the myths have all come together in another one...that she blew up because she was a battlecruiser and all battlectruisers were inadequately protected compared to all battleships. I hope I have shown at least partially that this was not the case....the truth is that all WW1 designs, be they BB or BC, were inadequately protected compared to all WW2 designs, because the nature of the threat had changed and skill of the designers had improved in the mean time. </font>

If it's on the map it will be used. And for those who think that the Oil out there was of no value, it's not so much what you yourself can do with the oil, but rather what your opponent cannot do with it! Also lets not forget the Italian Navy in WW2, it was Massive and strong enough locally to support the Nazis if they'd of ever used it right. Of course the Italians didn't and that's history, but for a brief period in 1941-42 the Axis Owned the Med, and didn't even know it... Because of the crippled RN BBs in Alexandria Harbor by Italian demolitionists. They just didn't do proper Recon... The transport capacity to bring that oil home to Italy and send it up the Boot to Germany was of no great effort. Similarly the Italians had conquored Somalia and probably could've occuppied and quelled any local rebellions in the Mideast... So long as Stalin stayed out... He had many issues with the locals, Muslims weren't particularly fond of a Godless Communist, nor of Imperial Western Power Regardless the actual value of the Oil pumped out may not be significant but the region may be more significant with the Greater Strategic Goal. Ultimately it gives Japan and Germany-along with Italy a place to meet up and talk about dividing up the World, with a Conquested China-India-Burma-Indo China...Perhaps the Japanese Army would've turned to Far East, Central USSR-Baku next... Which was a little bit vital for the Russian War Machine. Plus not too healthy for Australia-South Africa or India for the UK... Not that this is a gamebreaker for WW2 but certainly something that may have brought Churchill and the British people to the Diplomatic Board. I'm shocked we don't see a deduction of MPPs for loss of Suez for the UK, the Horn is just not as fast a place to do their business

I think the fact a BB never should go out alone without CAs and Destroyers is fact you don't send an Army alone into the USSR without a few corps cover it's ass

I think the idea is to give Arabia a meaningful existence on the map and something worth fighting for in the region. A Strategic Goal possibly, or a strategic alternative if the Axis have full gain of the MidEast in Vanilla SC it's not such a great gain with 1 oilfield and 1 shipment of oil to the West. I do not think it really represents the exact amount of oil extracted and mailed to the USA... Including all of the MiddleEast in the Axis sphere of influence would've probably been bad news for the Allies... For it would cost a greater Gem, India-Suez, the jugular Far East Support System of the British Empire

Considering the Bismark sunk an obsolete WW1 era ship the Hood and itself was a High Tech Modern WW2 ship the exchange was worthwhile for RN