Liam

It's not the airpower factor really. You are overlooking the real problems, air only means spotting, and striking ports, there are many ports of operation if the Axis player is smart. The only way to really harm the Germans in any Sea Lion is reduce all French occuppied ports to strength 4 till a certian time, reflecting the slow transfer of French resources to the Axis... Also include a British HomeGuard if invaded, which is historical, 2 or 3 corps entrenched fully 3, along with what that Player places on London and Manchester. That simulates fairly well... in the Battle of Britian, Fighterwise, they were pretty even... probably near 2 to 1, but Fighter Command was on the side of the Brits, so a HomeGuard HQ, with a rating if 9 appearing if a Sea Lion is imminent would make things more healthy.

Ought oh, I'm going to build about 50 armor for Rambo in our game

I'm hogging this topic, with BS rofl, but it's fun... it's an off topic situation now As far as Polish Jews, I do not count that as I put them in a seperate category.. as Gypsies and Homosexuals-handicapped. What the Third Reich Considered less than Human even less than Slav. God Forbid being in that category..that accounts for a good 9 million or so exterminated. Hell, much of the Nazi Hierarchy was mentally handicapped by Proffesional standards Including Adolf Hitler with a severe case of Manic Depression Liam, don't you count the jewish citizens in Poland as beeing polish? They sure were. </font>

Ahmen, and I'm not even fully American, I'm Limey mix. Both very bold nations, my little Nothing carved itself an Empire out of trade and diplomacy (and and an awesome navy) now they were some imperialistic types but a nation will take Power, like a little boy grows, so does a Nation.. It consumes more and becomes big and strong (Mature) sad thing is when that boy turns bad and inevitably in history that will happen.. Germany for instance, Russia, France, etc... The USA has more people wanting to move here than any other nation on Earth. I tell you, I'd love to goto Germany, if I had the money, I can't afford it though. They've got a great scene for my lifestyle! Perhaps one day I shall and when I do I will learn German and enjoy the richness of history, natural beauty and culture. Which Europe has, which the USA in places lacks, sadly.. It has some but it's a little young I'm afraid. The architecture here isn't quite as grand and ancient. People shouldn't knock this nation without facts. I had a Belgian on here, telling me how Holier than now Belgium was and that there was never a Colonial Belgium who aided to the Rwanda Massacres, he didn't even know of his own countries history, talking down the USA... LOL I do not point fingers as I know Man is Man, no matter what nation. The USA was made by idealists the best of the best, Elite. Sadly, since the bar has fallen and I look at myself and I realize being caught between two Great Powers (one now that the sun has finally set on) it's the individual that should make the difference. Should step up, not the nation. We shouldn't be judged for Our Nations actions when it's a hypocritical statement, for individuals we do not have that much of a choice. As far as the War in Iraq and in other Arab States, it has actually given those countries more freedom than ever. Most of the death and carnage since the Main Wars has been caused by their own Fanatics. Problem is they are not doing anything with this new found freedom, They're despots sadly and will fall into chaos and disorder more than likely an oversight by our Government and even my by myself who I actually see a bit more educated than my own Government when it comes to what will happen with things that part is sad, they are actually finding Weapons of Mass Destruction? Maybe you Euros need to kick the U.N.s ass into making a change instead of watching Massacres? When Americans do decide to Move, they are total and undeniably, they make change... of course noone is perfect

Well, France surrenders, Romania joins the Axis.. Italy is attacked by Brits, and they place their bomber in Malta, a little naval engagement shows Italian Superiority in the Med-we send it Axis fighters to kill the bomber on Malta... Game is running smoothly, we lost our legendary N.Atlantic Sub, not before inflicting heavy damage upon UK Battleships however... several damaged, 1 knocked down half strength. game is going exactly as planned

actually, I beat Iron Ranger as Allies as far as I can tell, that game is unfinished though until I get word from him. It was only his 4th match though

Without Oil, the MiddleEast would be like North America without Water.. Unsettled, and undesired and the locals would still be primitive. Only reason why the Locals have any history, tech and knowledge is from another Era when it was not but sand and stone and rest assured in one century it'll be all Sand and stone again. Not only is the Smart West getting cheap energy it's also selling them it's archaic weapondry Whats so wrong with the people living in the middle east? </font>

All this political Talk ::smiles:: I like it, sadly none of us do jack **** about it come poll time We elect 3 guys to be President they all are pretty worthless, We put Arnie Swarzenburger in as a Friggin Mayor? Senator? Hell, I don't even know, I do know I am likely as educated and as suited to the job as the man. To top it all off, my own President speaks worse English than Arnie! "Colonascapy?" I could probably create a better foreign policy than George Bush, and that my friends is what is sad about the USA today.. As far as the rest of the World, sorry but I don't have much more confidence, I haven't seen much better. Whatever has happened is just pathetic P.S. Remebers watching a memorial for the lost Soldiers of the Red Army during the liberation of Poland not too long ago on C-Span. Polack President giving the Ruskie one all sorts of Praise. Hmmm, me wonders who killed more Poles, Germans or Reds? The Hypocrisy of it ghouls and fiends, the Hyopcrisy. The World needs help.. ((( Revolution ))) for what? you don't deserve it ~Liam

Alright, here is the skippy on our game, since it's all PBEM now Axis have finally transfered West after a very very long siege of Warsaw, December.. However in the meantime, Benelux had fallen as written above and German forces penetrated deeply into French Territory. Rambo Parked his HQ on the S.Maginot to Die, and a French Army on the N.Maginot Died as well a few turns later. I captured the Mine early converting that resource 16 MPPs per turn to the Grey... After a few more engagements, it was obvious that the inferior BEF plus Corps and combined French forces from N.Africa/Syria stood no chance.. I surrounded the Parisian Armor, 6 entrenched, unentrenched it all the way, half strengthed it as well. France is falling later than I had hoped due to the fact of I have been careful not to lose too much, 1 dead German corps On the diplomatic Front, Hungary and Italy both have joined the Axis... Before Summer

That's amazing, cracking the Maginot without DOWing Benelux and capturing Paris? Rambo using Rockets IR fighting at the Rock

Agreed Worm, however breeding Christians? what about all the devoted Christians in Mexico though and South/Latin America?

John, ROFL

More people have starved to death, but that was 5 or 6 years... Tell the Pope to pass out condoms and sell that 150,000 dollar hat more people with die in Africa from unprotected sex in the next 25 years than in WW2 I'm certian of that

Cary, very insightful our Government isn't Centered around the Presidency, so many foriegners get the wrong idea. It's centered around the Government on a whole, and it's interests.. Big Business does run this nation does it not? Otherwise Oil for Guns wouldn't be our policy A Nation for the people or by the People blah blah blah... Oh, how our Founding Fathers would look poorly down upon us now, then again. They did march into Florida, that was in the interest of settlers in Georgia? Or in the interest of gaining another Colony? Who is righteous? I suppose in the end it doesn't matter. Might is Right and the lesser of the evils of the world is okay if we have to stand it? God I hate taking it up the rear.. Can't complain though I am not a Politician, wouldn't be hard to be one though, aye? Just sniff some coke and take about 4 years of school and be a good whoremugger. My humble, oh-so non-partisan opinion? Not who but what, and the answer is the Presidency. The founding fathers rigged our system basically so a bad or mediocre president couldn't do too much damage. In general a pretty wise decision: democracy is, after all, the worst form of government except when you consider the alternatives. And, all said and done, I'm afraid both Clinton and Junior have done a lot to prove out that maxim. Democrats from FDR through Johnson and then Nixon/Kissinger worked to re-rig the system to give the president a more decisive role in foreign policy. This may have been a good idea for the time, but it is inappropriate now -- decisions just don't need to be made as fast. And the system as it stands now gives any president way too much opportunity to foul things up. (Sure, there's the "terrorist nuke in Baltimore" scenario, but we've got to be realistic, the best decision to be made there involves who goes in to clean up -- I hate to be so brutal, but we know from Katrina that the United States can survive the loss of one of its cities.) </font>

Fart, if the UN did it's job we wouldn't have to. Just my 2 cents, they should all split the bill and more nations should be pushed into the UN and strengthen it. That is the job of the UN, solve world issues, resolve conflict and take care of the suffering in this world. All nations included even if the US one day should need to aided. Which will come inevitably People should be able to choose there own government, right? </font>

Hmmm, didn't think about the massive US aide to Isreal. Traditional Ally of the USA, but lately why do we aide them? That's interesting, and beyond my knowledge. They seem more than capable of defending themselves. Though they've the right policy toward their Enemies, instead of cowaring toward Terrorism, they are showing as did the English we're not bowing down nor tolerating. The IRA failed and the Palestinians will fail... Better to negotiate, they had nearly all the Desires, Just a little cooperation. Clinton had it worked out with Arafat and Sharon(Sp? again a subject I'm not a specialist in, and off topic. Soviet losses back on topic. How many I wonder died after Kursk? Though the Germans were now fighting for their survival? And here, in essence, you and I agree. I just have a teeny problem with the billion or so dollars we funnel to Israel every year: I'm not so sure it's a good idea to sacrifice so much for their freedom. This particularly when bombing Lebanon and reoccupying Gaza will likely "inspire" another 50-100 jihadis in Baghdad. I have all sorts of sympathy for Israel wanting to release its three hostages, but it gets messy when it means that the United States has to spend even more blood and treasure in the shooting gallery. ... apologies, ever so briefly I was on topic.... </font>

Cary, admiration for Poetry, commendable. Human life is an undervalued resource, less you're the one suffering.

We've spent how many billions in an attempt to give them something beyond despotism? That's why gas is 3 -4 bucks a pop in the SouthEast and why we shall lose Social Security for our elderly, to give them a Free Society.. It's starting to get tedious, they don't want to be free bad enough. Look at the Isrealis, look what they've sacrificed for their freedom? Now that is a people I can actually admire.. People should be able to choose there own government, right? </font>

Actually when you look at the way that Russians deported, executed, treated POWs, all human life during World War II. That is why I would come to that conclusion. The one resource the Russians had the Germans didn't have at the outbreak of war at least, was numbers and that stood strong throughout. You say to me they didn't use that advantage to the fullest, taking immense casaulties? Having firing squads shoot them if they should attempt to retreat for a Frontal Assualt on a suicide Position? As far Cold War losses, I know the US spent a hundred thousand dead between two Asian Communist Regimes. That is the Figure, I believe the Soviet losses much more Great. She is now a BackBroken Democracy, begging her arch old enemy the West for aid, selling her women on the black market and arms to the highgest bidder, putting 12 year olds in Uniform in Chechnya, and doesn't give two ****s what the UN thinks. So before you go shouting against the West, I suggest you do your homework. I know some people, in particular my Girlfriend Rallying for Human Rights in the Former Soviet Union, recieving Threats on the the topic... They care very little about human life, as they wrote back my girlfriend His Excellency Putin threatening her in words that would be hmmmm, contrived as being passive threats... Bush and Putin could be bunk buddies at least my President doesn't sell his Children for war and sex. Comming off topic here a little, I though it's something some of you America Bashers needed to know! Not saying I come from a Regime that isn't chasing Oil in the middle of Somewhere we don't belong either.. Everyone is doing it, that has the guns, the power and the knowhow? Sorry to get a bit heated, but it's all true, everyone has their point but think on this, Russia sold 45 thousand girls into the sex trade, it's legal there to sell your daughter for sex, and the Police will back you up if you do it and punish anyone who says anything against it. At least Americans fight with their young men, almost boys.. Mostly poor.. It's a matter of Wealth isn't it all? You are all argueing but if you have privledge in society you do not suffer the way that you do if you do not have privledge, that is why Hitler was so successful, the oppressed German People wanted more for their Nation, at any price. They then got what they deserved for taking that too far.. If all the men and women of that nation had said, "No," he couldn't have continued a War. People need to stand up for what they believe in and talk less.. Then the World will change... American losses... I gave you the figures... Start a War with the USA, so far what? 10 victories 1 stalemate I don't think there are many losses due to the fact our country isn't stupid and doesn't get involved where we know we'll lose a lot. It's not a bad idea.. Vietnam was a war of Popularity not of casualties, at any time the war would've been over, the Politicians feared letting the Generals do what they needed to do and the public was at the time smoking a lot of weed and fed up with spending lives and cash on a jungle in the middle of nowhere to be quite frank, I think America should stuff the Iraqi Democracy up the Arabs asses along with every other Arab nation, run a pipeline, suck it dry and give them Lexuses and BMWs, that's what they seem to want.. oh and add a few stinger missles so they can kill each other more efficiently, that's what the West has been doing for the past 30-45 years... How many Red soldiers died for a good battle and how many died for a fools errand? Ask yourself this, and you can see in stark contrast how the USA and UK well planned their operations. To minimize casaulties, and even the Germans till Hitler the last vestinges of his sanity. As to this, catch Rambo in a bad mood and he might argue with you for implying that Americans are cowards who put too much value on their own skin.... I'll save my breath on that argument. But have you any data on this? A comparison of Russian and American behavior in the Cold War doesn't really support your hypothesis: the U.S. seems quite willing to send boys to die for places like Kontum; at least given the casualty figures, the Soviets far less so. Granted, the Soviets are quite happy to spend North Korean, Vietnamese, or Chinese lives at a high discount, but that's not particularly a surprise. Do you account for the fact that in World War II Soviets were dying at home, while "our boys" were dying abroad? Can you give an estimate of the home-court discount on casualties? And finally... I detect a bit of sarcasm here, but wouldn't causing 4/5ths of the battle casualties the Germans suffered between 1941 and 12/44 count as bleeding the Germans white? I'd suggest leaving your PC fantasy-land to engage with facts. Granted, there's a little debate about the numbers Wiki used (Overman's), but it's at the margins and doesn't concern the ratio of losses between fronts. Further, the data is German -- ethnic stereotypes aside, the records are available and have been available for half a century, in contrast to the less-reliable soviet records. [/QB]

Numbers are difficult to put an precise digit upon. I've read since the age of 12, at least 10-15 different numbers for body count for Soviet Union WW2, all fairly decent sources

http://www.un.org/aboutun/ an interesting page of figures of casualties I like the way that they refer to the Reds having bled the Germans white.. Fact is since the Reds conspired with the Germans during the division of Poland they got a little bit of what they deserved? Had the USSR thrown it in with France and Great Britian in 1940 there wouldn't have been a WW2 so as far as all these USA knockers, I have one thing to say... Greed got Stalin nearly destroyed and history is written by the victors.. who knows the real losses and carnage.. One American/British life was worth 5 to 10 Russian lives, because we valued it that much greater, and bit less for a German... ~Liam P.S. what people like Rambo say about nations like Holland is true, those men didn't die for their Homeland...

Well, Since I had family in both England and the United States during both the Civil War of the USA and WW1. I should know how modern nations handle losses. The English paid a terrible price, Belgium and France worse being on the front. Can you say that England was a true Democracy though? For the most part... More of a Monarchy with a Prime Minister.. France however quite the opposite.. Both Americans and English sacrificed greatly. Relatively to their Europeans counterparts. The USA hasn't been threatened on Land, but if they were, if it's any sign their own native populations met near extinction before surrending their way of life, a quality that exists in us today. Who else was on the verge of total doomsday with 1 red button aside from the USA and USSR? The USA owed Europe zilch, the fact she sent men in was only due to the fact that the Germans screwed up at sea, sinking too many Americans and too many of our interests.. The blood and carnage was a European Affair... that we contribued what a hundred fifty thousand dead for Europeans is sad! I should also point out without those extra doughboys, I do not think that the war would've ended in 1918, they were needed for the final push against the Hindenburg Line for a swift victory. On the subject of deaths and losses, check the Armenians? Hell, it's a shocker there are any left, in the chaos of the Ottoman collapse and constant Rebellion what did they lose? I'm certian much higher than Serbia or the USSR-Germany in WW2 . Germany killed many Russians but she didn't kill enough. Plus Russians pulled on her reserves, which she did have. I head heard 80% of all men born in the 1920s Russia were dead by the end of WW2, but regardless. The Reds could keep marching, they could afford to lose 2 or 3 men for Germany's 1. Simply because they outnumbered Germany 3 to 1. Simple logistics, and they were in no threat by Stalingrad, they were using women much like Castro's Cuba by this point.. there are Women Aces in the Red Airforce, this is a quality the Germans would themselves adopt when desperate. Fact is matters didn't have to become so desperate, a little better retreat, could've preserved millions of Russians to fight it out later. The Reds were killed by the dozen because their leadership stunk and their foe was very hateful of them. The Poles a porportionate amount of their own population as did many other nations in World War II. Stalin was just too stubborn early, Purged his Leadership, ignored the obvious, a Grey Threat...and like Hitler just was oblivious, he did come alive.. but a good Leader in the USSR could've stemmed the Germans by Winter with much less loss of life IMO, I could be wrong but who in this room would disagree with me ? If you disagreed with Stalin you went to Siberia or you were re-educated Granted, the Soviets were right at the edge of destruction, probably unable to breath anywhere near easy until after the 6th Army surrendered in 1943. And, further, the duece and a half was critical in allowing the Soviets to make it to Berlin. But, contrary to an above post, my calculation is that the Soviets caused about 80% of the German military casualties between 1941 and 1945. Maybe I'm just PC to think that this is a significant contribution to the war effort. My numbers are here, admittedly based on wikipedia, but, well, if you're sure they're wrong, change them... http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=019963;p=8#000184 Hyazinth, in general I agree with you, but I'm not so sure about your first point -- France, Germany, and Britain all do quite well at bludgeoning each other into bloody pulps from 1914-1918. The Western Allies we would, of course, consider modern democracies, while Germany's resilience owed much to the concessions Bismarck and the Kaiser had made to democracy in the decades before. Granted, a drunk (Grant) won the American Civil War, but he was a democratic drunk. And, for that matter, the Franco-Prussian war would have lasted much longer had Napoleon III not been a fool and gotten himself captured. A more interesting question is what the world would like like today if the United States had made an even smaller contribution in World War I. </font>

P.S. As far as Soviet losses during WW2, they were High, millions, I don't think we'll ever know a precise figure, but you can guess likely over 10-20-30 million dead. Relatively 10-20% of their population, not so bad... Vietnam payed what 5%? and the USA 50 thousand to inflict it?

Heir Strachwitz, You're calculations of a Democracy in the fighting department is way off. During the American Civil War, we lost 600 thousand Soldiers in the field and that is not calculating the cost in Civilian lives nor the damage which still exists to this day! Few Wars aside from the Napoleonic had been as dreadful during the 19th century amongst civilized and modernized nations. For the Age that is Hellish...For WW2 conversion table that'd of been 2.5-5 Million Dead at least purely Soldiers and utter devastation of land.. The South still has Poverty, hatred and a weak economy 141 years later. Russia needing a Lunatic to save it?? Bahhhh! That lunatic, disorganized the entire Soviet State for Fighting, killing of it's Officer Corp and totally hanging anyone of any skill due to one man's paranoid delusions who loathed his Father. Not to say that Stalin was not successful, but he was vile and he didn't care about death, that is why is nation was nearly destroyed, that and a fanatical Nazi Germany much to oblige him. Quoting Stalin, "The Death of One is a tragedy, the death of millions a statistic!" If Politicians, would've done there job and backed Italy during German's rapid expansion and showed Hitler that Little Boys get punished for doing certian things they shouldn't, perhaps we could've minimized the damage, a war was likely inevitable, though I'm not sure that's entirely true if Hitler truly feared his Power and Almighty Omnipotence to be wrong? France and England both along with the USSR and USA the Main Powers with Italy all are Thralls to Hitler's Will pre-1939... Only Italy really complained much, odd? Il Duce paraphrazing, "Germany is a nation of Killers, I will not stand for this!" During the annexation of Austria..then he changed his tone when he realized he was alone. Strong men don't do much without strong guns to back 'em up... In the End in the West, it was never going to happen, not without more Men, Tanks and more Guns. Even with or without air, which wasn't always decisive and wasn't always useable in the poor European Weather. Germany had too few and less morale due to Stalingrad, Kursk, North Africa, Italy, etc... People lose faith in the losing side, it's just the way of things.. Wars of attrittion are never fun, Germany should've surrendered a week after D-Day and sought Pre-War Borders if any intelligent man ran the show. I would've sought it 6 months earlier. Fact is Hitler was an overly ambitious fool, who believed he was infailable, that's why he lost.. He had a bunch of Major Powers who weren't Mobilized, he Mowed most of them Down, couldn't get to England, an Island, feared Russia and the USA. Once they mobilized they Mowed him down. end of story

Absolutely, this has been a learning experience, I didn't even know that Liverpool being smacked would cut my supply, sorta a waste as there is still Scapa Flow and other Ports of arrival for British Supplies and would've been historically. I went on an adventure when I could've evacuated the entire Egyptian UK Force back home.. Should've thought it out, also you cannot relocate those forces to Russia after you conquor Iran, I didn't know this either... I put in quite a few chits in Sweden to try and recapture them, in this game we've spent a load on Diplo I know. at least 10-15 chits on your end, at least 8 or 9 chits on my end... I didn't push the USA as UK, perhaps that would've been a wiser investment. Scandanavia cost you, but you got lucky getting her back in and you got all the Balkans. Regardless the USSR had all the time in the world to prepare for War, unlike SC1 though I do not know if she can deliver the deathblow considering the Wermacht is pretty much still in tact and you have many Minors to conquor. We're far from over and I think it's about 60-40 Axis favored.. You will however lose a lot trying to take England if you manage it at all