Terif

To be more precise: If you take Egypt (means 4-8% russian readiness), but don´t do additional DoWs, statistically Barbarossa starts in average during October 1941. Readiness increase is random within certain limits, so it can be 1-2 earlier or later, depending on your luck (or you can influence it further via diplomacy) .

At the russian border you need in version 1.0 the following troops: - January 1940, both Warsaw and Königsberg have to be occupied. - January 1941, you need a third unit east of Königsberg (hex 97,15) Maximum you can have 5 units in and around Warsaw and 4 units in and around Königsberg or russian readiness can increase. If you have the proper amount of guard units and didn´t do too many DoWs, Russia will usually join Winter 1941/42.

Yep, for SC2 there is no bidding system so far . Here let´s wait for the next patch(s) to bring some more balance .

Yep, same as in SC 1 - new players there can also play without any bid and Allies are even in the advantage . But experienced players have to give Allies >10.000 mpps to balance it. In SC 2 it´s similar - Version 1.0 balanced for new players, but strongly in favour of Axis after some games experience .

Yep, can only second Hellraiser: In version 1.0 Allies have simply no chance if Axis goes for Sealion and the axis player has at least a bit experience and doesn´t make major mistakes - like neglecting russian border garrisons as Boron did in the other game. Unfortunately defence of England (and Egypt) is not possible with the current amphibious landing system since Axis is much stronger on the ground, but can land its troops without any possibility for Allies to prevent it. Since Russia and USA gear up only slowly and are not ready to fight before 1942, game will already be over at this point. In contrary to Allies Germany has tech and units already in 1941. So Axis either simply takes Moskov, or collects the minors. USA can´t do much anyway without a springboard for a landing and so it is Axis with income >500 mpps/turn against Russia, i.e. also no longterm chance for Russia. P.S. advantage for an attacker is in deed too large and attack values much too high with some tech (lv 4-5 tanks wipe out an enemy unit with one hit...), so defence is not really possible and games end only in a simple bloodbath at the moment where the side with the better tech and more units wins - strategy doesn´t matter much, and this is bad for a strategy game . But let´s wait and see what the first patch brings, since there will be a lot of changes in gameplay .

This is normal - your units are simply out of supply, so your HQ and corps have only 1 action point. But to move your units you would need 2 APs since you are in marshes. To free them you need a second HQ - but this one you should keep in supply or it will be caught there as well...

When Panzerliga starts its official League at July 1st, there will be provided a beginners guide - also including some possible strategies. But at the moment writing any guide makes simply no sense since you can throw it out of the window after the first patch . Besides, developing your own strategies and see how things work is the part that makes the most fun in a new game like SC2 - So..read the manual, play some games and see which strategies work against which opponents and what makes fun for you . P.S. @DD - SC 2 is not complicated, 98% are already clear and figured out Nevertheless it in deed needs some fine tuning and technical/interface problems solved first (especially to be able to do something useful during the enemy turn, i.e. beeing able to look around on the map to plan your strategy and to be able to minimize the game without loosing connection so you don´t have to sit up to 10-15 minutes before the screen twirling one´s thumbs until you can make your next turn...) before I will really start playing - i.e. hopefully after the first patch .

A HQ has to get supply from a city to be in supply. Calculate supply like for any normal unit and when the HQ gets one or more supply, then it is in supply. I.e. if a city is at 3, then your HQ has to be within 2 (clear) hexes (3-2=1). With 3 hexes away, it will get no supply (3-3=0).

Fourth game was a full game this time with Rambo Axis: Poland and France (Plunder 490) went like usual – France was a bit fast due to good weather for Axis (sunshine in the Winter ) so he was able to nearly march through when he attacked in November 1939 and France surrendered May 5, 1940 – only one str 4 french unit was left. In the sub hunt Allies had to search every single hex of the Atlantik and even got stuck in the ice Northwest of Greenland during Winter 1940 until they finally found and sunk the sub in the southwestern corner of the map south of USA. This time he also conquered Denmark after France. He obviously learned his lesson concerning Brest too, left the city for now to Allies and conquered it later in Mid 1941 when Middle east was history and he was able to concentrate his forces there . In the middle east campaign he used again his Syria first strategy – worked well in the first game, but this time Allies were prepared and able to evacuate everything from Egypt (HQ, tank, army, AF, 3 corps) with only one single corps lost in Amman. While Axis was busy, Allies tried a counter landing in northern Italy around Torino – but since ships have only a spotting range of 1, they had to sent their forces in without reconnaissance. So their first scouting unit (Gibraltar corps) had to report italian forces defending the city and invasion got cancelled. Gibraltar corps delivered a last heroic fight when several axis units operated to the battle and Royal Navy retreated after the Bomber at Malta spotted the italian fleet approaching. Diplomacy caused early Iraq convois to UK and after several diplomatic successes it never joined Axis by free will and they had to conquer Iraq with Barbarossa. Axis invested into Hungary and Romania that also joined Axis early. Allied diplomats convinced USA to raise their readiness by 14% in July 1940. Spain got a hit to 49% before Allies countered with chits. Barbarossa started in November 1941: Front cities undefended except Kiev and taken by Axis. Iraq conquered by 2 german armies and 2 tanks, Iran not much later by Paratroopers. Russia declared war to Finland and conquered it after a few turns. Axis known techs: Infantry weapons 3, Anti-tank 3, Motor 1, Heavy tank 2, Advanced Air 4, LR 2. USA joined June 1942 and Axis started collecting minors: Switzerland, Yugoslavia and Tunesia conquered. Axis offensive targeted Leningrad – city was well defended and Axis needed several months of siege by heavy ground forces, 5 german airfleets and a romanian one before it finally fell at June 28, 1942. Since Axis obviously invested heavily into air, it was very weak on the ground and so Allies started their counteroffensive in July 1942 after Siberians arrived and they catched up in infantry weapons (now also level 3), Anti-tank was not necessary (only level 1) since there was no single german tank in Russia: Russia moved forward fast in the south, liberating Odessa in the first strike, Kiev under heavy attacks. Simultaneously UK landed in France, liberating Brest and Bordeaux. UK rescued nearly all forces from Egypt, was therefore pretty strong on the ground and also invested into air: 2 bombers and 3 AFs in action, commanded by Montgomery while O´Connor supported the forces in France. When UK liberated Paris, several US armies and Eisenhower joined the fight. As used from Rambo, he immediateyl sent all his forces into counterattacks – leaving his entrenched positions in the Siegfried line in the west (7 corps were entrenched there) and moving his fleet into the battle of France. He also conquered Vichy France within 2 turns, and all his 3 tanks attacked from Marseilles the US forces at Bordeaux. In the east he operated his units from Leningrad to Kiev and Romania where he attacked in the open field between these two positions. An extremely bloody but short battle started – within less than 2 months the german Wehrmacht and also their fleet got fully destroyed: In the west Paris and Bordeauxs got lost, but the combined UK and US fleet made short process of the german surface fleet and their subs. So when Axis forces reached the coast and were in range of the UK air in England, they made scrap metal out of the 3 german tanks and their supporting forces with shorebombardement and the help of 3 carriers, 3 AFs and 3 bombers. In the east Russia started an additional Offensive with its northern task force as Germany shifted its forces to the south, conquering Smolensk, Leningrad, Riga and Minsk while the southern task force destroyed the bulk of the axis forces in the tank battle at Kiev – only that there were no german tanks, but 7 russian ones . German airfleets took out several russian tanks, but in the end they had no protection by ground forces any more and got attacked directly despite their long range when strong russian forces surounded Warsaw and Königsberg where they had their airbases while another task force entered Hungary and Romania. Since Axis moved its forces from Iraq to France, Russian forces that were placed at the border for defence, now also started an offensive there, attacking the last axis defenders and conquering the Iraqi oilfields. During this last big battle, Axis lost Manstein in the mountains of Romania and 26 ground units in the open field. Western Allies lost 4 units, Russia 10 units. When Axis surrendered in September 1942 there were 7 axis airfleets (5 german, 1 romanian, 1 italian) in the east at Königsberg and Warsaw, but only 5 damaged german ground units left (2 of them cut off) to defend them – russian tanks already west of Warsaw approaching Berlin. Summary: Rambo made the same mistakes as in SC 1 and invested too much into air. 5 german airfleets were definitely too much, especially since he fully researched in LongRange (lv 2 reached) and Jet tech (lv 4 reached). So combined with too much tech investment in general and too much operating/transporting he had not enough mpps left for his ground forces. Only 3 german tanks built in this game – but in SC 2 the emphasize is on ground warfare. Nevertheless, minor collecting still works and as soon as USA is in the war, Axis can conquer all minors in range without any penalty – so Axis was economically again stronger than Allies in this game. Fortunately the Axis commander was not patient enough to go in the defensive when it was time and sought the battle in the open field, counterattacking at the strong points of Allies. Without the loss ratio of 2:1 in favour of Allies in these battles it would have looked pretty dark for Allies in the long run.

Game ended pretty fast: USA was about to join and Axis passive in Russia, so it was clear Axis would try to collect the neutrals now and Allies prepared a preemptive strike at Skandinavia and Denmark (still neutral). So Axis run into the middle of the entire Royal Navy when they tried to invade Norway one turn too early (USA at 87%). After a little slugfest Axis surrendered. Only 2 german tanks spotted in the game, no axis defence in the Middle east and russian siberian reinforcements about to enter the area. After this we played some more games: Second game with Rambo Allies: Rambo went all in during France, sending its entire fleet into the Baltic when Denmark survived the Axis attack at str 1. Also landing UK army + corps around Kiel and in Denmark. UK airfleet even operated to Paris to defend the capital in the last days. But Allies only lost all ground troops, battleship, 2 carriers, airfleet and alarmed Sweden with their manoevers in the Baltic. France surrendered May 5, 1940 and so did Allies after they sacrificed everything. Defending France is not possible in SC 2 . Third game – Rambo Axis: After conquering Poland and France (Plunder 473) he split his forces, attacking Brest and Alexandria simultaneously. So he didn´t have enough forces at both places and his tanks and armies got slaughtered one by one at Brest and Egypt and he surrendered in November 1940.

Hmm, Liam - seems it is time we play a game with me as Axis . In SC 2 version 1.0 the Axis is in a huge advantage, same as in SC 1 with the original Fall Weiss. You only need to be patient, not to waste mpps and know the basics, then Allies have no real chance . 1941/42 Axis is much stronger than Allies if you did it right. Sgainst an experienced Axis player, only when USA gears up and western Allies are able to start D-day, Allies can be able to strike back somewhere in 1943/44.

Perhaps something for one of the next patches if it is possible to patch: When playing with the english version of SC 2 against a player with the german version, then the message about not having the same scenario in the scenario folder popps up, despite playing the original Fall Weiss scenario and nothing got changed. I guess this is because of the different languages and since SC 2 builds a checksum, a different language leads to a different checksum (will probably be the same with other language versions like the french one). But so it is not possible to say if the host changed the scenario or not since the message will popp up in any case.

In deed no need for a big debate - players will agree to the rules and scenarios they want to use by themselves. The original Fall Weiss will most probably become again the standard scenario as in SC 1, so the target should be to improve it as much as possible before the last patch is out .

Yep, first we need some work from Hubert for the basic conditions and then we can make a standard campaign - if it gets accepted by the community, why not the scenario you will create . I guess we came a bit away from what it was all about, cause in the end we don´t have a real disagreement it seems to me: - Version 1.0 is not balanced and needs some things to be fixed. I would say here we can agree ? - so you say we fix it via editor till the next patch, I say it is better to use house rules till the next patch. Here we have a time restricted difference. - with the next patch most of the major quirks will be patched and I also hope we don´t need house rules any more and as far as I can read what is planed for the next patch it seems this could already be the case. When the situation is stable and the general conditions are clear, then I am also for creating a balanced scenario via editor if it should still be necessary, cause then it is worth the time and effort to create and establish a new standard scenario. Nevertheless I hope this will not be necessary cause hopefully the 1939 campaign delivered and patched by Hubert will already be balanced - if not after the first patch, then after the second or third .

Ideal scenario ? Sorry, this will never exist - same as a perfect world - every human is different and has different opinions and preferences. For the mod community or to play fun scenarios the editor is perfect to create lots of different scenarios. But for competition games I prefer to have an official scenario (by Hubert ). P.S. we already agree that after the next patches most of the current house rules will already be abandoned - they are made for version 1.0 and nothing more . In 1.1 we will have to see which rules are necessary or if perhaps we can even play with no rules at all. Time and the next patch will tell .

@Blashy: Sorry, but the "No DoW on Majors and landings first turn" is a rule from SC 1 and I not from SC 2 - just read it carefully, rule is (see first post): "1. No allied DoW to USA allowed. Rome gambit forbidden (i.e. no attack at Rome in the first turn of DoW)" USA can´t be fixed in the editor, but will be in the patch. To allow taking Rome will simply ruin a lot of good games since this means an early game over for one side or the other if Allies try it - sorry but this has nothing to do with a strategy game, it is simply roulette. Second rule - the movement of neutral units can also not be changed via editor, but Patch will change it. And Cairo rule - simple and easy to use this rule. So it works how it should be and you don´t need a lot of time to explain the scenario changes to every (new) player you want to play with and the other one doesn´t need to look into the scripts before playing. Turkey can also not be changed via editor (at least not without a lot of effort) and so will need a rule till it is patched. In short why it is better to use house rules than the editor: The main problems ATM can´t be solved via editor (see above). For the small problems/unbalances every player will have a different solution if we start editing the scenario and this will simply mean too much time lost and troubles to reach an agreement before a game. House rules in contrary are simple, easy to use and nobody needs to have a look into the different scripts or learn how to use them before he can start a game.

@Blashy: Yes, we could fix most things covered by house rules with the editor by writing a dozen scripts or so, changing landscape (to avoid supply via Turkey) or give additional ressources to Russia etc... But this will work only for ONE single person ! That´s the problem. But if we play competition games, then an official standard is needed where everyone can agree to and knows what´s in. Probably there will be no balanced scenario even after the first patch(es), but with house rules it is much easier to balance it when we have a common basis as with the editor and a lot of isolated individual solutions and more important: it is for everyone comprehensible. So I simply hope forum input will help to improve the game and also make a more balanced official scenario possible - individual solutions are no solution here. P.S.: Yep, I am a bit lazy and prefer to simply agree to certain houserules with an opponent - needs perhaps a minute or two - than to change the scenario before each game in consensus with the opponent and we have to look it through/test it what will take several hours...guess not much players would be willing to do it this way anyway Edit: And Hubert is already working on it, so I have the positive feeling that not too far in the future we will have an improved scenario at our disposal [ April 27, 2006, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Yep, ATM it is not possible to play without certain house rules if you want at least a fair game and better: a balanced one . I guess the first patches will bring a lot of changes and until then it really makes no sense changing the scenario by oneself. Every player would have to look through a new player made scenario if it suits his preferences and to test which strategies work in this special scenario - not practible for competition games. Here you simply need an official scenario and then you can use house rules or a bidding system where you only adjust one parameter if possible. So every player knows what to expect and has the same chances. Worked in SC 1 this way and will most likely also in SC 2. In SC 1 there were several tries to implement player made balanced scenarios...didn´t work cause of the mentioned reasons and players always returned after a short period to the standard Fall Weiss with bidding system .

Yep, can only support this request . And a Hotkey to reach the war map with readiness percentages in one push.

Yep, Rambo also protests simultaneously - the editor is no real option in this case since we need a standard and not a bunch of individual solutions where then nobody will look through.

Sorry, but for competition games we need a balanced official standard campaign and not individually changed campaigns where everybody will use different scripts and OOBs - not practible in HvsH games. Perhaps against the AI you can customize the scenario since it will always share your individiual preferences, but not against human opponents .

Yep, Turkey is too easy to take without any possibility to prevent it for Allies (needs 3 turns maximum, can also be done in 2 turns) and gives way too much benefit for Axis in Version 1.0. I guess until this is fixed in a patch, for my next games I will have to use a house rule to forbid an axis DoW at Turkey - since this is in deed a sure win for Axis.

@hellraiser: Yep, that´s why it is a "wild" league at the moment and the offical league will start at July 1 . @Rambo: Yes, Saturday will be fine again.

We played another game with me as Axis – again no chance for Allies. Axis went through Turkey and then in a simultaneous strike via Kharkov and Caucasus into the heart of Russia where Allies surrendered in May 1942. Despite Allies beeing lucky with diplomacy (Iraq early went up to 34% readiness in favour of Allies - i.e. UK received mpp convois - and Spain never joined Axis despite 10 axis chits in it and 2 readiness hits already in 1939 (69%) and then nothing again any more), they had longterm no chance against Axis that was economically too strong. Only a few turns after Barbarossa started Axis again got (and this time without Spain) over 650 mpps per turn while Russia was below 200...Germany at full force and tech, containing 8 tanks while russian forces were nearly not existant any more. Allies (especially Russia) need to be strengthened (e.g. some more ressources - 50-100 mpps - in the Urals) to have a chance in the long run and to attack Turkey should be made a bit more unattractive as it is in the moment with the land connection it provides into the middle east (ressources go up to 8/10) and the broad front to Russia. At least an attack at Turkey should rise US readiness (20-30%), so Axis would think about it – ATM it doesn´t affect USA. And the land connection should be removed similar to Gibraltar, so Axis ressources in the mid east will not go up to full strength and the invasion of Caucasus will not be so easy any more (ATM supply 10 for Axis). [ April 27, 2006, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]