Terif

August/September: To lure allied ships away from Brest where they shore bombarded the german attackers, the german Kriegsmarine left the baltic and attacked near Benelux. But a costly move since the entire Royal Navy just had a meeting with its commander at London...so all 3 german cruisers got sunk immediately. Only the subs escaped since they dived against every single attack...despite only sub tech 1 - they really need to get an award . In Egypt Allies have to retreat to Alexandria after they pursued italians towards Tobruk and killed a corps. Now 2 german tanks, Paratrooper and HQ forced them to retreat.

June-August 1940: Axis concentrates on taking out the bomber on Malta - until now without much success. Meanwhile the italians practice bullet catching near Alexandria . In July Germany conquers Norway. Allies occupy Bergen, Trondheim + mine. In the meantime also Sweden got some hopes and is now leaning +19% towards Allies - so ore transports to Germany are cancelled. Brest still allied.

Hmm, in April first the sub in the Atlantic was found - dived 3 out of 4 attacks, but the following turn it went down to the bottom of the sea . France still holds during April and May and even HQ + AF manage to kamikaze themselves . Now at June 2, 1940 Paris will finally fall. Only one str 6 army left of the french forces. Kamikaze mission successful. Sidenote: Twisted worlds in SC 2...The defender tries to let his units be killed and exposes them wherever possible, while the attacker wants to avoid harming the enemy and tries to protect them instead of the own units .

Yep, perfect weather for Axis - only clear weather in his turns, mud in the french turns . So in November 39 the corps in Front of Paris survives at str 1. But the next turn Germany moves an already weakened army along the coast to kill the french tank that moved out of the city (replaced by a str 10 army from Maginot). And so this army gets killed by 5 shore bombardments and an army attack. The german corps with its str 1 at Paris gets removed too by force. So now in December 1939 finally the winter comes. Paris still surounded by french units, only Maginot had to be abandoned and 2 german units killed so far .

And the Poles are yelling: Kamikazeeee !! But here Condor even helps them to kamikaze themselves, unfortunately they have not enough success with it despite the support by Axis. Nevertheless plunder is much lower than it could have been . Denmark turn 2, Benelux conquered turn 3 by Axis with clear weather.

Simultaneously - same post, different posters

So the game start - Standard settings (FoW, no undo, soft build limits) and standard rules: 1. No allied DoW to USA allowed. Rome gambit forbidden (i.e. no attack at Rome in the first turn of DoW) 2. Italy, USA and Russia are not allowed to move transports or ships away from their coast before they are at war. Exception: Italy is allowed to move transports and ships from port to port. 3. Axis has to take Cairo as soon as possible after they defeated the defenders. Condor plays Axis, I am Allies.

Here our rematch with switched sides and the same rules as last time: 1. No allied DoW to USA allowed. Rome gambit forbidden (i.e. no attack at Rome in the first turn of DoW) 2. Italy, USA and Russia are not allowed to move transports or ships away from their coast before they are at war. Exception: Italy is allowed to move transports and ships from port to port. 3. Axis has to take Cairo as soon as possible after they defeated the defenders. First AAR can be found here . War starts and Germany moves cautiously forward towards Warschau, trying not to harm the peaceful polish units standing around them. German soldiers couldn´t believe their eyes when in the following allied turn polish soldiers threw their protection suits away and with „kamikaze“ cries on their lips looked for the next tank in the vicinity to kill as much as possible of themselves. The survivors jumped in front of the tank cannons up and down, singing the refrain: „please kill us“, but the germans didn´t want to... At least Poland surrendered in turn 2, fortunately without too much killed Poles, so plunder was ok with 277 mpps. After the experience in Poland, German command abolished the idea to attack immediately in the west: Winter weather would kill too many french soldiers before Germany could reach Paris to end the suffering. So invasion got scheduled for Spring 1940. Since in February there was still snow, invasion started April 7, 1940: Both Benelux and Denmark surrendered. French formed a defence line at Paris. Next turn german tanks reached Paris by carefully operating only 2 single armies out of the key positions, trying not to harm other healthy french units around them. But in the allied turn the same fever already seen in Poland infested the french units...they threw away all their clothes, running to the next tank throwing themselves between the chains when the tank crew didn´t look and chanted the typical song for this madness „please kill us, please..“ Unfortunately there was bad weather the following turn, so no unit was able to enter Paris and France got another chance to kamikaze its units. But June 30, 1940 finally the french suffering got ended. Meanwhile Allies gathered in the Med nearly their whole fleet, including 2 french ships (but they surrendered with France). After Italy joined strong allied ground forces including BEF army attacked Tobruk and managed to kill an italian corps before german HQ with several armies and AFs arrived in Africa and could end the siege. During this landing operation Italy sent its fleet into a huge naval battle to clear the sea path to Africa and lost a battleship and a cruiser in the operation, UK 3 ships and a carrier due to heavy axis airsupport. So Royal Navy had to retreat and since their return path to Egypt was cut off they moved towards Gibraltar. But due to the „Sitzkrieg“ during the 1939 Winter, Germany invested heavily into diplo (in contrary to England that sent its mpps to Egypt) and so Spain already joined the axis cause and was in the same moment sieging Gibraltar. England exchanged the defender once to enable its fleet to escape, but there was no escape any more. The german fleet already guarded the gate and sunk 2 allied cruiser near Portugal. So even if Gibraltar had survived long enough, the battered english Med fleet would have been lost. So in the end Allies lost in or around the Med 3 cruiser, 4 battleships and all 3 carriers vs only 2 italian ships and a spanish cruiser. To conquer Egypt was no problem any more with enough air and even naval support with shore bombardment and Axis conquered the country without own losses – nobody escaped except the airfleet. After this it was preparation time for Barbarossa. Researching, unit building and raiding the Atlantic with the 4 axis subs (3 german, 1 italian). Syria got conquered and Iraq joined Axis. After Spain England invested now also into diplo and increased russian readiness 10% towards war. So Barbarossa started with August 1941 a bit earlier than in the first game. Allies also established a backward defence at Leningrad-Moskow and Sevastopol-Kharkov. No russian attack at Finland, but they joined freely when Axis approached Leningrad and soon after conquered it with the help of some experienced german AFs. During this operation, Russia started a counterattack near Kharkov where the german line was a bit thin and killed a corps. But Axis already grew much too strong, so Russia had no real chance any more. Simultaneously Axis attacked via Iran into the Caucasus. Since the russian main forces were at Kharkov, only some corps in the cities defended, the fight was soon over and Caucasus with its 3 oilfields conquered. Germany had the full amount of HQs, tanks and corps and short after Barbarossa start also nearly all available armies. Axis income was above 500 mpps/turn despite no real luck in Industry technology (Level 2 with 5+1 chits invested there). Not only in numbers Germany was superior, also in tech with soon maxed out ground techs in all areas (Barbarossa started with HT 4, IW 2, Motor 1, AT 2 – until Summer 1942 they were all at maximum). Perhaps Russia would still have had a slight chance, but its commander was not willing to give up russian territory and defended every city with corps/armies and lost a lot of armies one by one at Kharkov, Moskow and Vologda. Since at this time he was technologically far behind with only IW 1, AT 1, HT 2 and Motor 1, they had no real chance to win these battles and Russia lost too many valuable units that revenged later. In front of Rostov the last huge battle started when 5 russian tanks (now Heavy Tank 3) together with several armies and corps attacked the german spearheads that were at low supply and killed 4 of them including a tank and an army. But he attacked too aggressive, so the retaliation was shocking: several armies/corps killed immediately and all 5 tanks cut off and killed without supply in the following turn. At the same time western Allies attacked the blockade fleet at Ireland with everything they had left including several bombers and an AF. A bloody battle occured including landings at Brest to attack a sub just resupplying at port. After several turns Royal Navy finally lost every single ship left + an amphibious transport and USA also 3 of its 4 ships. Axis navy was also quite battered with 6 ships lost. But still had all 4 subs, 2 battleships and 3 cruisers left. After this the game was over for sure and Axis wondered why Allies didn´t surrender – but they still had a surprise in their sleeves . When Axis approached the last 2 russian ground units that hided in the Urals together with 2 AFs, US Paratroopers with Long Range 4 landed in Berlin ! Nice move, nevertheless didn´t help Allies any more: Germany had Munich as a second capital and even if they would have captured it too: every german unit gives 3% chance the country continues fighting and minor units subtracted, Germany anyway had 40+ units in combat and therefore 100% survival chance . And so after their last secret weapon failed, Allies finally surrendered in September 1942 . Conclusion: Similar situation as in SC 1 – as long as Axis doesn´t know the basics and which triggers what, the game should be balanced for both sides. But if Axis knows how to play its side and especially the readiness triggers, then Allies are in a clear disadvantage. At the start of Barbarossa Axis was already so strong, not much could have stopped them.

Move a land unit to the port and capture it

Yep, Saturday the battle starts . In SC 1 the first thing my Allies did in every game against Rambo was investing in GLR since he always bought subs and/or carriers, so I am already in practice to battle him at sea .

My 2 cents: - Plunder connected to the surviving units may be more realistic from a historical point of view (and that´s probably the reason it was implemented originally this way in SC 2). But for gameplay this in deed leeds to the strange result that the art of war for defenders is to kill themselves in an as efficient way as possible instead of trying a real defence or to retreat units in time to save them for a later battle. SC 1 has clearly the better system here for gameplay that in deed creates much more interesting battles and decissions than simply to harakiri the units so nobody survives if possible . - attack values increase a bit too much with tech for my taste. At least Heavy tanks should be capped at lv 2 or 3 like Infantry Weapons and Anti-tank. A Level 5 tank does a damage of 10 points, i.e. one hit and the enemy unit is dead, not really good for the game...What I would like to see would be a tech to REDUCE damage taken from attacks to a bit even out the huge advantages of attackers and offensive techs.

Yep, 4 AFs is usually not too much - only added the "too much AF" point after you mentioned that yourself at ICQ in our analysis . So, after some online experience and discussions there are certainly some things that need to be covered by houserules - at least until they are patched . At the moment I will for the time beeing propose the following house rules for my future games: 1. No allied DoW to USA allowed. Rome gambit forbidden (i.e. no attack at Rome in the first turn of DoW) 2. Italy, USA and Russia are not allowed to move transports or ships away from their coast before they are at war. Exception: Italy is allowed to move transports and ships from port to port. 3. Axis has to take Cairo as soon as possible after they defeated the defenders. P.S. @Sombra: manual still contains some errors/ is not up to date in some points - if you look in the scripts, it is a one time event . [ April 19, 2006, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

@Aesopo: Same answer as Blashy - everything´s fine. What doesn´t mean we can´t disagree on some SC 2 points . Concerning topic: As TaoJah said, Royal Navy (or other enemy ships) can simply be ignored by amphib transports, as well as enemy air. That´s the key problem of the current landing system. And as Sombra mentioned: surely it is possible to defend against Sealion. But only if England spent a lot of cash in ground units. Cash they simply need for other things. At least they will have no chance to go for a different strategy, cause if Axis player wants, he then simply will Sealion them after Egypt is conquered and plunder up to several thousand mpps - so they can even get over USA/USSR joining earlier if they attack before they join anyway.

Egypt surely cost Axis a lot of mpps, nevertheless they were quite strong in Russia and nearly all cities in the Med and West were occupied by garrisons. But Axis obviously neglected tech investments, especially in IT and production that are key for a longterm war while Russia alone invested 23 chits... So Axis had enough units at the start of Barbarossa, but when the heavy battles started not enough income and production tech to replace their losses. Additionally Axis made the mistake to try to defend Finland against superior russian forces. So their best units were bound there and Russia was able to build up in the south and around Moskov without any threat or losses. In contrary, Germany had high losses not only in the siege of Leningrad since attacking from marshes and accross a river leaded the first rounds to no losses for the defender but 1-3 str points lost for the attackers but as well in the defence of Finland where they lost a unit each turn vs no russian losses. Another fault: Axis bought too many airfleets for their mpps, so they were a bit weak on the ground. But in SC 2 AFs are not needed any more for ground warfare. In open ground battles they are pretty much useless (compared to what they cost in mpps) and are only needed for special operations. Allies never bought air, so they had only their 3 starting/free unit AFs - one got killed and never replaced. Russia moved its forces a bit late to the north to close the trap east of Leningrad where they lured german tanks into an ambush, so supply got cut off for some time in Finland, but still in time to kill some key units of and break the axis neck when simultaneously the southern front went into the offensive too. [ April 18, 2006, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Yep, Allies have 10 tanks vs 2 german ones, over a dozen armies and countless corps...Romania and Hungary under siege with heavy losses for Germany there. In the west Allies gear up after tanks and several armies arrived with 2 HQs now. Allied tech at the end of the war (September 6, 1942): USA: InfanterieWeapons 2, Anti-tank 1, Motorization 1, Production 4, Industry 2 Russia: IW 2, Heavy tanks 2, AT 2, Motor 1, Advanced Air 1, Production 2, Industry 4

August 30, 1942: Russian forces in Königsberg area nearly completely wiped out by german air and experience armies/tanks - around half a dozen russian units lost and rebought now. Survivors retreat to Minsk except a tank that attacks a german AF in a kamikaze mission In Romania the oilfield changed the owner twice - german army killed, another one near Hungary. Since russian reinforcements and the finish task force can´t operate to the front due to scorched earth, they have to walk... In the west Allies liberate Brest, Bordeaux will follow next turn when the last 2 defenders get killed. US forces landed, Montgomery leads the troops in France. Current mpp income per turn including convois: UK 102 mpps, USA 152 and Russia 512

August 16, 1942: Last german sub U-47 found at the spanish coast and surounded by cruisers - will not survive the next day. Major landings in western France including UK tanks. Bordeaux and Brest under heavy attacks - defenders at str 1, 2 and 5 left. Approaching Paris. Additional landings in western Germany, Hamburg conquered by UK forces . In the east Finland surrenders, Leningrad liberated. Several german armies defend Romania, but oilfield conquered. Bloody battles around Königsberg and Warsaw, russian ground forces attack an experienced german AF directly after they wiped out a german army that blocked the path.

August 2, 1942: Tirpitz, Bismarck and U-30 sunk by the allied fleets. Brest under heavy attacks and at str 2. UK tank and half a dozen corps on the way or already in France. US troops ready to join the cause next turn. Russian forces conquer Kiev and Odessa, last romanian army destroyed in the romanian oilfields. Russian spearheads enter Hungary. German air and experienced armies are deadly near Königsberg, so Russia stays away and reinforces its units instead of advancing further. Helsinki under heavy attacks from all sides and will fall next turn.

Yep, perhaps more than Russia..but they are making 364 mpps, all Allies together around 600 . July 19, 1942: The russian summer offensive goes well. 3 axis minor units wiped out around Odessa, city surounded from all sides and cut off. Minsk is burning and german armies die like flies around Leningrad while russian forces already approach Königsberg. Only in Finland there is a fragile cease fire this turn since Russia is reinforcing and upgrading its troops - next turn Axis will be thrown out from there . In the Atlantic Prinz Eugen gets sunk, german sub survives at str 2 the attacks of the combined US and UK fleets. D-day starts in France: UK landings at Brest, city cut off, bomber and AF strikes weaken the defender.

July 5, 1942: Weather is clear and so Russia starts its own private independence day : Superior motorized russian forces move forward along the whole front from Leningrad to Odessa, killing countless axis forces including romanian and italian ones, not to mention one of the 3 german tanks. Kiev liberated, Smolensk under heavy attack, russian forces already reach the romanian border . In the Atlantic U 47 dives against all naval attacks...only the canadian Bomber has a shot at battleship Bismarck. USA joins, fleet leaves port to join the battle. UK prepares for invasion of France.

June 14, 1942: 8 russian tanks in action is a pretty nice picture . Russian task force starts to wipe out the german units around Leningrad...army with supply 4 destroyed. Second russian offensive between Kiev and Odessa begins. In the middle of the Atlantic the Royal Navy from Canada on their rendezvous course with the Gibraltar task force encounters Tirpitz and Prinz Eugen, unfortunately stormy weather so not much damage - but lets see if they survive the encounter with the entire british fleet .

At least they survive, despite heavy damages . But only 1 russian tank was in range of the armoured forces, the other tanks just catching up. Connection reestablished to Finland. Strange battle in the Baltic: Both fleets simply ignore each other and do shore bombardements instead .

April 19, 1942 - Mud: Finish expedition force cut off from supply by a german tank, but the german tank also now got cut off by russian forces approaching from Moskau and closing the gap. Weather is slowing them down, but now 6 russian tanks + 6 armies and several corps are gathered in the area around Finland .

March 22, 1942 - Mud: Another german corps wiped out in Finland, army survives at str 2. AF moves north to avoid the approaching german tanks. Gneisenau reduced to str 2.

January 25, 1942 - Winter, snow: German corps removed from Finland by force, Leningrad under siege and Smolensk german occupied. Russians rebuild industry in the Urals. [ April 18, 2006, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]