Edwin P.

Perhaps, Disband a corps and get one to four options 1. MPP 2. Increase Air Defense by 1 (if on a city or resource hex, one time only, air defense bonus is lost if hex is occupied by an enemy unit) 3. Build an Airfield (if on a non-city hex) 4. Fortify Hex (increase city entrenchment value by 2, other hexes by 1) 5. Increase Shore Battery Ratings (increase readiness of defending units on coastal land hexes by 70% or give then an entrenchment value of 2 when attacked from other coastal land hexes or sea hexes (only sea hexes) - reflects pill boxes, bunkers and coastal defense guns that guard the coast, Shore defenses are destroyed if hex is occupied by enemy unit.) 6. Build Supply Depot (friendly units in the city hex have their readiness increased by 50%, supply depot destroyed if hex is occupied by enemy units) [ October 28, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Sombra - I like your idea about the unit in Rome entrenching. I would have the unit in Rome start entrenching on the first turn that an allied unit is within 2 hexes of Rome at the start of the Axis turn. So if the allies moves a transport or naval unit next to Rome the Corps in Rome starts to entrench. IF the allies move next to Rome but don't invade for 2 turns then the Rome corps starts at entrenchment level 2. I would also vary the starting location of the Italian Fleet near Venice. Perhaps 10% of the time its starting location should be close to Albania. Along with this the starting location of the German subs in the North Atlantic should also vary to make it more of a hunt for the Allied navies.

It would be interesting to hear HC's take on the concepts that we have covered in the numerous posts listed above; 1> Middle East Events 2> Norway 3> Free Brits & Cairo 4> Ultra I like them but they may not mesh with his vision of SC2 or could be outside the scope of his project plan. [ October 27, 2003, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

JerseyJohn Thanks for the link to the threat it was most interesting to read your comments and the comments of others. The key element I think is my take that the Allies can block the invasion if they station naval ships off the coast of Oslo and that the AI can take Denmark, especially if it is programmed to attack Denmark on turn 1 and not wait until after France falls.

Now that's interesting. So, if Axis takes England then have Egypt become Free British with any UK units that are based within 5 hexes of Cairo becoming Free British Units (100%). Supply for Egypt increases to 10 as a merchant ship route is created from the US to the South Atlantic. As long as this route stays at 20MPP or higher Cairo operates as a level 10 city. The UK can build new units in Cairo reflecting troops from Australia, India, South Africa, etc. To make things simple the US can send war ships via the South Atlantic Transit hexes to Cairo and can operate Air Units there. Free Brits Also once the UK falls should 1) UK naval Units have a chance to become Free Brits, especially if they are within 1 hex of US or Candian ports or close to Cairo? 2) The UK be able to build units in Canada with any MPP produced by the UK or its minor allies? [ October 27, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Dear JerseyJohn I find reading your answers most interesting and informative. So here's one more quesiton for you: Since all of these events favor the Allies why not a few for the Axis? Norway As most Axis humans players will take the Nordic countries: Perhaps give the Axis AI a bonus by reflecting the surprise German conquest of Norway. In 25% of the games vs Axis AI have Norway surrender to the Axis after Denmark falls to Germany if no allied ships block passage to Oslo. This would give the Axis a small MPP Boost from Plunder and Production and eliminate the need to write an AI routine for conquering Norway. To secure Norway the AI would of course have to transport units to Oslo. Any thoughts? Would this unbalance the game or would it be welcome by players against the AI? Of course since most Human Axis players take Sweden too HC would have to write a routine for this or find a simpe way to reflect this. One reason why Humans do so much better as the Axis is that they start off with a much higher MPP base, if the game could duplicate this it would be much more interesting. Thanks for the information, an excellent reason to justify giving the AI information about the number of Allied units in Egypt. This would eliminate the current situation where the allied forces can abandon Egypt and the AI will not move in to conquer it. [ October 28, 2003, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

JerseyJohn Many thanks for your insightful analysis. Much appreciated. I really admire your linking of the chance for a Libyan revolt (after Italy(Axis) removes all troops) to the status of neighboring territories; Allies Hold Egypt +10%, Algeria +10%, Only Malta 1%, Only Malta and Gibraltor 3%. Hopefully HC will consider events such as these for inclusion in SC2. Now for some more questions: Question: If Germany launched a successful Sea Lion and conquered the UK wouldn't the chance for Turkey to move against Vichy Syria and an independent Iraq be even greater (much greater)? Perhaps close to 75%. I think so as they would have every incentive to regain their lost territories when the region would is in chaos. If Germany launched a successful Sea Lion and the UK fell what would the chances for an Egyptian coup be? I think that such an event would encourage coup plotters among the Egyptian Military. Perhaps as high as 10%? Would Turkey even think of advancing into Egypt if it controlled Syria and Iraq? Especially if an Egyptian coup occurred - wanting to control it before the Axis could move in. Say 25%? If Russia was losing the war could the Turks have been persuaded to join the Allies if Turkey already controlled Syria and Iraq (and Egypt?), perhaps in exchange for a promise that the Allies would recognize Turkish control over Egypt? and send them new arms via the Suez. I present this option as one way to occassionaly (say one in 20 games) offset the effect of an overly successful German advance against the Russian AI. It would be a surprise that would really spice things up. Also if the Germans launched a successful Sea Lion wouldn't the US have diverted forces from the PTO. Another realistic way to occassionaly (say 20% if UK Falls to a Sea Lion) give the AI a bonus in the face of an successful German Human player and make for a more interesting game? Of course with FOW on the Human player would not know of the US Pacific Fleet arriving in the Atlantic. Since all of these events favor the Allies why not a few for the Axis? Norway Perhaps give the Axis AI a bonus by reflecting the surprise German conquest of Norway. In 25% of the games vs Axis AI have Norway surrender to the Axis after Denmark falls to Germany. This would give the Axis a small MPP Boost from Plunder and Production and eliminate the need to write an AI routine for this. To secure Norway the AI would of course have to transport units to Oslo. Carrying this idea futher - say that it has a 0% at Beginner AI, 25% at intermediate AI and a 75% to happen at Expert level AI. [ October 27, 2003, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

JerseyJohn Since Hubert is on a roll with SC2 (and I am assuming that it will focus on ETO) I have been trying to think of "historically possible" random events that he might possibly consider to spice the game up and be included as a selectable optional feature. Any suggestions? Example: If Italy totally abandons Libya - what would have been the chance for an Arab revolt? 5%? 1%? If Germany conquered Egypt or the UK abandoned the Middle East would Turkey have considered annexing Iraq? say 5%? 10%? or even Vichy Syria? If the UK forces abandons Cairo in an AI game would the Egyptians have revolted?10%? What was the effect of Ultra on the War? Could a similar event give the AI - either Axis or Allies a similar advantage. For example - say a 50% per game that the AI player discovers an ultra device. This gives the AI knowledge of all Human player locations for until the Human player changes his codes (2% per turn). Thus the AI might have an intelligence advantage for an average of 25 turns in some games. For a human player the benefit from Ultra should be much shorter perhaps only 1 to 6 turns, apply to units on only one major power, and the chance of obtaining one should be only 1% per turn (1 in 100 turns, 1 in 5 years). I say only one maor power for humans as the AI might have trouble interpreting partial information. [ October 28, 2003, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Give Italy a Guiding Strategy 1. Guard Europe Against an Allied Invasion (30%) 2. Support Invasion of Russia (30%) 3. Conquer the Mediterrean Countries (Greece, Egypt, Vichy, Iraq, Spain, Portugal)(25%) 4. Rule the Atlantic (10%) by taking Vichy then Gibraltor and building lots of subs. 5. Take the straits and sail transports through them to Attack Russia.(5%) [ October 27, 2003, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Regarding the relative experience and training of new units May I suggest that this can be shown by giving German units that begin the game 1 Medal of experience. Future units receive none.

AI Items to be Fixed 1. Allies take Spain before France Falls and Axis concentrate a large force around a one hex wide corridor leading to Spain, never attacking Vichy france to attack on broad front or concentrating air power on the blocking unit 2. Allies take Sicily and Axis mount a large force to attack a on a hex hex front without enough air support to blast through the blocking Allied unit. 3. Allied hold Brest with one corps continually rotating in a new corps after transporting out the old corps. AI should attack port with air units or concentrate air units on corps in Brest. 4. Axis AI will never launch a Sea Lion even if Entire Allied fleet is in the Med and only minimal allied units are in the UK. 5. Axis AI often never probes an ungarrisonned Egypt or Suez Canal. Allied AI never probes towards an unoccupied Libya or Italy or Spain. 6. Even if the Axis AI takes Gibraltor the Italian fleet will not leave the Med to interdict US transports. Example IF Axis takes Gibraltor --- Allied Navy Weak and no allied ships in the Med (known from record of sunk Allied ships) ------If Yes does Italy build submarines and attempt to flood the Atlantic? (40%) ---------------And Does Germany also build subs in south western France? (60%) ------If No does Italy build submarines and attempt to enter the Atlantic with a large task force that moves in a group? (10%) -------------And does Germany build subs in south western France to support the battle for the Atlantic? (20%) If Allies Conquer Spain before France Falls -------Does Axis attack Vichy France to open a path to Spain (Yes 80%) -------Does Axis DOW Portugal If Axis Minors are Neutral After Date XX/xxand Russia is Neutral ---Does Axis attack Hungary ---Does Axis Attack Romania ---Does Axis Attack Bulgaria [ October 27, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Hubert, if you have the time for a quick comment; What are your thoughts on an improved Fog of War in SC2. Ie in SC1 terms - Reduce the chance for air fleets to spot an enemy unit if the unit is within range(or to the rear of) of an interception capable enemy air unit. Perhaps have the chance vary according to the number of enemy air fleets covering the area or the distance from the spotting units location or the strength of air fleets covering the hex (say 2% per str point, so 4 fleets x 10str x 2% = 80% cover vs aerial recon) or no arial recon of enemy units adjacent to an enemy air fleet. It always struck me as unusual that an air fleet could spot land units behind a wall of 4 enemy air fleets with 100% certainty. - No notification of a siberian transfer event to the Axis - Air Fleets have a % to spot naval units in non-coastal sea hexes adjusted for weather effects. Example: 90% to spot surface ships and 50% to spot subs. This would give a chance for a task force to slip into range (remember Pearl Harbor) unoticed. - Low cost & low strength air units that could be used for spotting but not interception or attack. - Some sort of intelligence/counterintelligence tech (aka Ultra). - Option for AI FOW OFF / HUMAN FOW On (As Suggested by Jersey John many posts long ago) to improve games vs the AI for those that play the AI often or some other toggable option to improve help the AI such as an option for AI units to get +1 spotting or AI knows when cities/nations are not garrisoned (ie Cairo/Egypt/Canada/Italy/Sweden/Denmark). [ October 27, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Blashy, I agree. The simplicity and quick play nature of SC is great. The things I would add is an improved AI, improved FOW, historical chrome and simple features that would make each game different: more techs, rare random events, and interactive events to spice things up and reflect the unpredicatability of war. Events and Turkey, the sleeping bear of WWII Random but Rare Events PS: Blashy, sometime ago I suggested the concept of minor techs you could purchase where you gain the effect immediately, but they would offer limited benefits. Ie: Minor Tech: Improved Air Defense. Offers immediate +1 Air Defense Bonus to all cities for 600 MPP. Minor Tech: Improved Submarine Production which offers a 5% reduction in the cost of producing submarines for 100MPP. Minor Tech: Logistics, allows a HQ unit to support 6 units, not five for a cost of 300MPP. Minor Tech: Cold Weather Prep, defending units in Russia or Finland gain a 10% readiness bonus during winter months for a cost of 250MPP. Minor Tech: City Defense, maximum entrenchment level in cities is increased by 1 for a cost of 200MPP. Fighter Pilor Training, increases readiness of intercepting air fleets by 10% for 250MPP. Minor techs reflect the allocation of resources resources to an area, not technological advances. Ideally, you would have 12 to 15 major techs (the current SC concept) and another 12 to 15 minor techs from which to choose. Each minor tech could be purchased only once. [ October 27, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Now that's a great idea which would also make for some interesting sea battles and lead to a gradual buildup of the US Navy and give Germany time to subdue Russia. [ October 26, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Curry and Jersey John I also like the Carriers as is, even though they are expensive to repair and replace and I often play the Axis. However, I would increase the value of Submarines to make it more risky to use carriers when they are not shielded by surface ships. How? Say that all units have only a 50% to spot a submarine unit in a non-port hex. This reflects the fact that submarines are harder to spot than surface ships. Each advance in submarine tech decreases an air units spotting chance by an additional 10% to a minumum of 10% as the subs are spending more time operating submerged. Thus a land or carrier based air unit would have at best a 50% to spot a submarine unit in spotting range. Submarine units should have a chance to avoid fire when moving into an unxplored enemy occupied hex equal to their dive percentage. Thus subs will be able to attack surface ships without being hit by return fire. Stronger subs will give the Axis more incentive to engage in Naval warfare and make for a more interesting battle in the Atlantic. [ October 26, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Thanks Hubert. Thanks Jersey John - I like your take on limiting air units to city hexes or hexes adjacent to city hexes was most interesting. Its simple and effective. What if you could disband a corps in a non-city adjacent hex to build an airfield. Thus adding a bit more flexiblity but at a cost of 125MPP and allowing one to station air fleets on Cyprus or Crete. Hoping for a merry SC2 Christmas.

Hubert Thanks for the post and your update on SC2. Looking forward to a SC2 with a deviously clever AI. And the chance for an independent Turkey to annex Iraq and Vichy Syria.

I understand that no patches are forthcoming; however, a simple update to the AI would be most appreciated, even if it included only 2 or 3 improvements to the AI. Ideas include; 1. When Italy Enters War French Corps in Beruit moves to Cairo. (Expert 100%, Intermediate 50%, Beginner 0%) 2. Occasionaly on Turn 1 the UK Fleet Next to Egypt starts to move towards the North Atlantic. 3. Italian Sub attacks merchant shipping in Med. 4. German Subs in North Atlantic do not always move towards Ireland on turn one or always retreat to the north. 5. After Italy enters the war sometimes the Allies will move Corps in Gibraltor to Egypt via the Cape of Good Hope and the French Corps in Algeria to Gibraltor 6. Axis Attacks Denmark on Turn 1 (Expert 100%, Intermediate 50%, Beginner 0%) 7. UK Researches Longrange and Jets 8. Germany relcaims all tech chits if Russia takes Warsaw or Allies Liberate France. (Expert 100%, Intermediate 50%, Beginner 0%) 9. AI checks to launch Allied invasion of Ireland at start of game and after US entersthe war. AI uses MPPs from Invasion to buy 1 chit in Long Range or Jets. (Expert 50%, Intermediate 10%, Beginner 0%) 10. French Air Fleet moves to North England and disbands itself after France Surrenders giving the UK about 180MPP. UK uses this to purchase 1 tech chit in Longrange or Jets. 11. French Army Unit Moves to Manchester to become Free French. 12. UK Reclaims all tech chits if London, Manchester or Edinburgh falls to Axis. (Expert 100%, Intermediate 50%, Beginner 0%) 13. Chance for AI to disband French Fleets & purchases corps. (Beginner 0%, Intermediate 10%, Expert 20%) 14. Allied Fleets goes to Med to Attack Italian Fleet and then returns to Guard England. If so then France does not disband fleets (Option 13) (Exper 30%, Intermediate 15%, Beginner 0%) AI Example: Turn 1 Allied Strategy Check (Occurs only on Turn1): Does AI Prepare to Sink Italian Fleet when Italy enters the War? --- NO then ----------Does AI Move UK Fleet in Egypt to Atlantic? ----------Does AI Disband French Fleet to buy corps for defense of France? ----------Does AI Attack Ireland? ----------Does AI hunt for German subs in the Atlantic with French and UK Atlantic Fleets? ----------Does AI send corps to coast of Bergan waiting to land if Germany attacks Norway? ----------Does AI attempt to protect Air Fleets and Carriers until D-Day. ---------------IF Yes then AI keeps carriers to north of Ireland and moves Air Fleets in UK North of Manchester to minimize damage from interceptions. ---- Yes then ---------- AI Moves French Naval Units to Malta -----------AI Moves UK Fleet in Egypt to Malta -----------AI moves UK Carriers south to Malta -----------AI moves Half of UK English Fleet to Malta -----------Does AI replace Air Fleet on Malta with Bomber? 15. Axis AI should know if Egypt is not garrisoned (5% per turn) due to Axis intelligence agents in Cairo . If not garrisoned then Italy should send a corps to conquer Egypt. 16. Italian Fleet should scout Eastern Med for UK Naval Fleet and if none is encountered then return to Guard Tobruk. [ October 26, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

At higher AI difficulty levels the "AXIS" AI may attack Spain and Vichy France. [ October 26, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

As Allies, to Keep my opponents off balance I frequently change my strategy for Egypt each game. As Terif says you have to realize that against a dedicated opponent the Middel East will fall, the question is how much can you make them pay for it. Sometimes I will base all my UK Airfleets and bomber units east of the Suez and hide a single UK naval fleet in the Suez Canal. Then I patiently wait until Axis transports come in range and then attack. As Axis, if I aim for the Egypt I will most likely attack Vichy france and take Beruit on the on the same turn as this will give me an airbase from which to push toward Egypt and to scout out the Allied defenses.

JerseyJohn Glad to hear that you liked it. Hopefully SC2 will include historical information and/or include tools that will allow users to add their own information to the game.

Shaka of Carthage Many Thanks for the info I will visit the SC COmmand site and download your scenario. I like how you handled the Middle East.

Bump - due to mention of chrome in other new threads. Question for Hubert - Will SC2 contain any chrome? or if not will players have the option to add their own? [ October 25, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

For those interested in including historical information - pictures and audio clips - visit the following thread: Chrome Thread - With Historical Audio Files The audio clips include radio broadcasts of major events during the war.

Many thanks Thanks for the clarification. I had not thought about taking Tobruk before attacking Greece. But I still think that the US can not reach Spain in one turn per your advanced rules and if Germans reduced the port of London ; an incentive for the historical German Blitz of London), the UK ability to launch a sea invasion would be sharpely reduced. Still, it would be interesting to play a game with these rules and see what the effect is.