SeaMonkey

Vintage stuff! JJ and Rambo, what a great forum, my first laugh this AM and much food for thought.....well at least from JerseyJ. JJR....your good for the chuckle though!

Now what, a234, do you really think the Western Democracies care a rats ass what happens to the Bolsheviks back in say 1939? Maybe you're right and they had enough forsight to bring USSR into the alliance, but I'm doubtful. My position is they wouldn't, they may have even assisted Germany with trade, and then is there any misgivings here that Germany would eventually control all of Eastern Europe. I'm sure with the Balkans and Greece getting pressured, the UK may have gotten France to present a united front at further German aggression and that may have been the trigger, but no USSR by this time, I'm thinking 1941. Now where would Italy be at this juncture? And what of Japan, who may well have been an ally of Germany's in the USSR escapade?

Now for the real contest. Once again as I was heading west, taking the Marianas and preparing for the Iwo Jimian assault the IJN came to do battle, this is the third time. No land based air to help this time as the US forces are well extended and bases are only now being prepared to receive aircraft. 4 DDs, 3 CAs, and a BB hit my forces, the screening subs and destroyers taking most of the impact and then my CVs spring to action stations. After the battle I move in several BBs to clean up what's left, adios DDs and CAs. So....I'm thinking Ho Hum, big deal, another USN extravaganza when what to my wondering eyes do appear, 4 subs, two BBs and a CV to clean up my BBs just northeast of Iwo. When the smoke clears I've lost the Massachusettes, Nevada and Alabama and my CVs have hardly any SBDs or Avengers left to counterstrike the counterstrike. This is unbelievable as my total count of IJN vessels to perish is 5 CVs, 7 BBs, 9 CAs, 14 DDs and 8 subs and they are still coming. Needless to say, once again all my CVs, still safe and sound, are headed back to Pearl for replenishment and all amphibious invasion activity is now on hold in the middle of June 1944. China, what a dumb AI the Japs are. Finally they have broken the Lanchow line and are scurrying towards the last National capital. Thing is they could have done it many moons ago, but the AI doesn't know how to shuffle its forces back and forth efficiently and huddles them all up behind each other giving them no room to maneuver. Anyway I have shuttled in all my B29s with fighter support and I will try to blunt the tide, not going to be easy and I fully expect China to fall before the end of 44. What a show of airpower is Burma. You know it rains there a lot, especially in the Summer and grounds the air forces, right? No matter, even grounded Japanese air groups are virtually impossible to kill and they continue to hold up the UK advance even in driving rainstorms. After 3 attacks by level 3 Armor, and IW2 corps at 5 supply, about the best you can get in the terrain, the Japanese air fields only lose about half their strength to be reinforced the next turn. Obviously this equals no progress, so I'm taking the entire RN to help an Australian invasion group I've put together to assault the Philippines. I'm shivering in horror at the thought of winter and clear weather coming to Burma in which case the Japanese airforce will continue the "killing fields" as anti- or advanced air technology has so far escaped the UK scientists. Overall, still a tough go for the Allies and I've yet to encounter the Kamakazis.

More about the Allied AI. Game is now in Sept.44 and the USN and RN are all over the place invading all seas except those in the immediate home waters. Java has fallen and Sumatra is barely hanging on as my CVs take pot shots at the Allied surface vessels. One thing I've learned, don't waste your attacks on subs because at this level they dive almost everytime. In Burma I almost had Rangoon, but now I've got to fall back as Chinese partisans are everywhere and the Red Army is coming down the road to attack Lanchow. When Chinese partisans take control of a city it is hell to dig them out, 4 HQ supported armies usually do the trick if there is some air help in the vicinity, but it usually takes two turns as they have entrenched. Speaking of the Red Army, they have been held at bay in Manchuoku, but there are so many air attacks from both directions I've had to operate in 3 fighter groups and I replied "no" to the question of transfering the capital of Japan to the Korean peninsula should the home islands surrender. I'm thinking as time goes on I will retreat to the coastal cities in China and Manchuoku, perhaps assaulting Vladivostok on the way back to a diminishing defensive perimeter on the western ramparts of the Empire. Only one problem. To gain the marginal victory I will have to maintain Chungking as Japanese occupied, so there will need to be a strong enclave created there. That's where the Burmese forces are headed. I still retain most of the original Pacific Island possessions although, other than the Marianas, I have pulled back most naval and air assets to the surrounding home island seas, except in the China Sea and Singapore since this is where most Allied naval power is being projected.

I'm wondering JJ, what if Hitler had not pushed those early Allied buttons, or perhaps a different sequence unfolded. Starting in 1936, let's assume Germany reoccupies the Rhineland, not much abrasion ensued from that act. Now further along Germany doesn't engage in Austrian or Czechoslovakian enticements and largely sets her sights on Poland. Why Poland, what better way to get to the USSR? Germany uses her diplomatic cards for getting the Allies to accept the appeasement of Polish occupation. Just like Sudentenland was the jump off for the Czech grab, the Danzig Corridor provides the same opportunity to get the rest of Poland. Now Hitler is free to follow his apirations of subduing the USSR without French or British hostilities threatening his western borders. So this WW2 "what if" starts with Barbarossa. Or...let's say Global begins sometime in early 37 with decision events. If you're playing as Axis and your intentions are to compete with the western democracies and leave USSR alone or to invite them as a co-belligerent then you may have to answer the question of building a certain class of naval vessels at the price of MPP deductions over a period of time or accept one less Panzer Group in your build Q. Maybe you decide to trade a few corps for subs, or an army for a cruiser, an airgroup for a carrier, you get my drift, now we're talking a Z plan. Anyway, you see the possibilities of making diplomatic and strategic decisions before the hostilities commence, molding your alliance into whatever endeavor you wish to pursue. This is truly how to explore some rather unusual occurrences for the WW2 "what if" developments.

That's a very good point JJ, even if, and it is highly doubtful as you state, Rommel would've got caught up in a Stalingrad battle he would have had enough recognition to know when to retreat regardless of the Hitler directive. I read these posts and the question beckons, how much time preceding the historical beginnings of WW2(Sept 1, 1939) would be necessary for the SC players to conclude their diplomatic and strategical aspirations and take their alliance into the "what if" conductance of the alternative WW2 scenario? One year, two? How much time to lay the groundwork for the things like the Z plan; how much time to change historical tactical/strategical doctrines like blitzkrieg? How much time does it take to interject a rift in the French-British alliance, to conclude a German/USSR pact of armed collusion, etc? Obviously the USA involvement contains the trump card of the conflict, what are the viable alternatives for USA contributions, sans Pearl Harbor type of attacks? What can really bring the USA in and can it be isolated to a particular theater? So many questions, so many outcomes for "The Brave New World".

Does this thread not bring back what was the best in our earlier SC forum years? Got to love it! To address the population comparison in light of a short conflict, 2 years at the most, for no one can doubt that the weight of the Allies will eventually overcome the Axis, you must examine the human psyche. Think about how easily human perspective is manipulated, there were and are people on the opposite ends of the spectrum, philosophically, idealistically, and their interpretation of "reality". Compare them to a flock of sheep, sheople with the overwhelming position of numbers, but they can be misguided, only takes a few wolves to change their outlook on survival. What the wolves have to focus on is taking out the sheepdogs, for if they are successful the masses' leanings can be changed. The numbers game(population) is really about the amount of sheepdogs and the sheperds who direct them. The sheople's will is easily broken when not protected. Interesting that the north to south Barbarossa campaign may have met with some success and I agree the main battle may have occurred in Stalingrad even with this alternative pursual. As difficult as the Volga may have been to cross, the primary error by the Germans was getting caught up in the urban fight. Obviously the Wehrmacht violated their primary strategy of bypassing large urban areas and focus on cutting them off. Of course as we know, Stalingrad turned out to be the struggle of two leaders' will, Hitler vs Stalin. Kuni, I seem to remember reading, not professing them to be totally accurate, that the actual migration of industry to the Urals was not that significant in the early war effort and that it was a couple of years before those relocations actually made a contribution. If so, all the more reason to vanquish the Soviet Union by the end of 42 or at least render them so weak as to not be a continued apparent threat.

With regards to the Mideast question of the Axis closing the Suez, eastern Med area, what JJ said is exactly right. One of the greatest shortcomings was the unavailability of maritime ports for off loading supplies which hampered both sides when extending their advances. I've often thought that the alternative would have been the advance through Syria and Palestine, essentially back-dooring the Suez. With Turkey's help that strategy would have been even easier, but still if Crete, Cyprus and Rhodes could have been enhanced bases coupled with the Italian fleet for securring the logistical cord then who knows? This may be a viable strategy to follow when Global comes out, I for one will try it.

Excellent compilation JJ, and as usual a very good summation of what I agree is the best way to approach the Eastern campaign, from north to south. In fact I have been most successful with that strategy in SC games. Now, how about a WW2 root beginnings scenario? I've been thinking about something starting early, something with the initial basis focussed on diplomacy and society/infrastructure improvements. Usually most of your technological/weapons increases come from the feedback of war conditions, so I would present a beginning that is not conducive to weapon systems upgrades until later after hostilities commence. There would be very slight leanings of alliances so that most possibilities are open for the players to explore and invest MPPs in, to cultivate alliances as they see fit. They could also use these MPPs to improve things like intel, infra, IT, and PT, perhaps some engineering units active in extending road and rail lines, if that is indeed an offered feature. Maybe MPPs could be used to bolster certain ports and cities on the map to have a greater efficiency rating. What I'm getting at is a beginning without combat operations, one that allows diplomacy and infrastructure improvements and of course an emphasis in force structure through building programs. Maybe a series of decision scripts allow the historical belligerents an ability to deviate somewhat as to what their strategic orientations will be and slowly but surely guides them to the cataclysmic event that was WW2. Perhaps this is the scenario Hubert alluded to before leaving on vacation.

I have to agree Ludi, when you really think about it, there's a lot lacking in the SC naval model, but somehow it works, not magnificently, but it provides a decent simulation. I really detest the "corral" aspect where a naval unit can be trapped by surrounding with enemy units and in combination with land tiles. It really makes the restricted areas deadly to any naval units and even the open ocean if your opponent brings enough assets. I suppose you could argue that if your opponent brings that many naval units to the battle then the surrounded unit shouldn't have a chance to get away, but with 50 mile tiles it seems a little farfetched to close a piece of ocean completely. As I remember the max AP for any units in SC is 25. You could have greater for land units with level 5 mobility and use the max 5 APs per level, then max is like 50 for land units. I did something like this for my mod PZAA and it added a lot to the fluidity of the situation, even the naval units had 25 AP. It made the simulation more base oriented. What I mean is the units tended to stay at a port location and would move out, strike, and then move back to port next turn. They could linger if you wished, but they were hard to track down as there was lots of open ocean. Carriers were particularly deadly as they had the 25 AP and then the max range of the CAG on board, but not double strikes. I still think all naval units should have a "silent" or "pass through" capability if that mode is chosen by the player where they have a good chance of not being detected or at least on enemy contact, disperse, especially in stormy weather conditions. Let's face it, all naval units had the ability to make smoke and cloak their situation somewhat(depending on conditions), especially in the task force configurations that SC naval units are suppose to represent. Maybe, given AP25 to all naval units, there should be a direct correlation to supply, morale and efficiency when using a percent of the max AP, break it down. Your unit loses 5% per 5 AP used per turn(1AP = 1% loss), so that if they move the max allotment first turn down to 75%, next turn they are down to 50%, 3rd turn 25% and finally after four turns using max AP, they're zero, all used up, time to make port and replenish, R & R leave.

When I'm ready to leave the game I just hit the "Esc" key and the thing minimizes to your taskbar. A left click restores it when you're ready to resume. But this action does not exit the game, only puts it on standby status while I perform other operations.

Hey Bill, any chance you can enlighten us on those CTV changes, perhaps some of the other parameters, like morale degredation, strikes, de-entrenchments, APs, etc. for the different units. Don't violate the NDA, but any bone your able to throw, we're still hungry, what with that master of yours discarding his Christmas table scrapts and then leaving us to fend for ourselves.

Maybe it was a consideration, but Herkules was supposed to be largely an Italian operation, but for my "what if" you've got to go further back. Consider this, how about Malta instead of Crete? Without the Fuehrer's intervention and backed by Student and Goering, Jodl's staff may well have had their way and opted for Malta what with Rommel's success in the Cyrenaica. If you think about it, the logical conclusion is to go with Rommel, neutralize Malta and forget about Crete which turned out to be a deadend strategic decision. Now you've got Malta, Rommel's on Tobruk's doorstep and all those assets lost in the Cretian campaign are still at the Axis' disposal. Crete was nothing more than a false vision of Hitler's to erect a bulwark against his southern flank and the Balkans for Barbarossa. You don't need that damn if you've projected that intention further to the south into the Western Desert. The Brits are the run in NA and what possible significance is Crete at this point?

I've got to hand it to you Rambo, you're probably right about that Mideast oil being available to the Axis, Italy and Germany surely needed it but its likely not possible within the time constraints of the historical WW2 era. Let's think hypothetically though, excluding Turkey's involvement first, and then possibly that the Turks may have joined later with a successful Barbarossa. Imagine, not so outlandishly, that Rommel had gotten a couple more Panzer divisions and Malta had been invaded and occupied(unimpeded logistics). Franco's aspirations for North African territories and oil commitments were guaranteed by Hitler and Spain joined, most likely undermining Gibraltar's position. Essentially the Med is closed as the Suez would have been reached by the AK. Now we've got to get that oil to Italy and Germany. There's no pipeline and shipping is mostly nonexistent given the RN dominance before the Med was closed. The question is, assuming a serious Axis investment, how long does it take to establish an oil lifeline to Italy? To Germany through Turkey(railcars) and into the Rumanian infrastructure that was already present? Finally, if the RN had been kept at bay sooner and Italy had not suffered so much loss of its maritime lift capacity, how long, from the extreme eastern Med harbors, would it have been before the ME oil could have been sealifted in sufficient quantities to make a difference?

Alright, back to the Japanese Pacific positions. My 21st recon Bomber group operating out of Singapore spotted a US amphib which later turned out to be an HQ that landed on Sumatra, but not without losses. This operation is backed by USN and RN carrier task groups and they are bombing Java locations also. I'm really not sure how much of a committment this will be from the Aliies, but presently I'm considering it a diversion, although I am tasking some ground forces with transporting to the region, just in case. I've also reinforced my garrison in Singapore and the railways are open if I need to send additional forces to the area. I'm thinking that its monsoon time and not much will be happening, but you never know with the stupid AI as its already trapped that HQ in Sumatra. In the SW Pacific many US and Australian airgroups flying out of the Bismarks and New Guinea continue to attack my level 3 anti-air unit in Lorengau, taking losses with almost every sortie. Where's the bombarding BBs and CAs? I believe a human opponent would be using that avenue of attack, at least to disrupt the supply convoys as I'm able to replace losses while maintaining 50% efficiency. Heck I don't know where the rest of the USN is! Only subs are showing up around the Marianas and along the Iwo Jimian coast and they are a tough bunch to eliminate. Even with ASW 1, I'm taking losses and one sub survived after 17 attacks from all IJN platforms as well as landbased air. The seas were stormy but it was a sight to behold as the USS Tirante continually dived and maneuvered out of harm's way. That's it! About the turn of the year 43 to 44 I usually start thinking of retreating back to the home islands in the face of an Allied offensive, humanly directed. With this AI and knowing that a tactical victory only requires Chungking and my home islands, its going to be an easy win, just like the first time I played the Japanese side. I've still got the Gilberts and Marshalls, the Carolines are all mine and I've really got a lot of reinforcements going into the Marianas, HQ supported. So for all you guys looking for a more formidable AI effort, I would stick with playing the Allied side against the Japanese AI, at least that's the present situation. Here's hoping it changes, but I'm pretty much on the defense right now and that does not bode well for the offensive incompetence of most AIs.

Hey, yeah,... you're right, but this is a study, its why I keep soliciting peolple's opinion of the time necessary to complete a turn. I'm evaluating the feature bleed. There's a certain point you get to where the game is on the threshold of being cumbersome as far as doing turns, PBEM or AI. I'm afraid we may be on the brink and if so perhaps a different line of thought will be required for condensing certain mechanics. Not sure yet, maybe I think about a turn too long, maybe I should take notes. What do the players of this scenario think?

Now in early April 44 I'm herding my Japanese land and airforces into Burma with exceeding successes. After four turns in a row where UK indian airforces had good flying weather vs my Jap airgroups being continually socked in, Lashio finally fell to General Hata's army group. That, coupled with GHQ Terauchi attempts to cut off a British HQ group in the vicinity of Chiengmai, vastly improves the situation and may unhinge the Allied positions all the way to Mandalay. I have 4 TACs and 2 level 3 fighter groups supporting this operation and as long as they can get into the air, the Allied forces are toast. The Communists have fallen easily back at the turn of the year and despite intermittent partisan activities the region is somewhat stable. There are 3 Japanese combat formations supported by an HQ policing the area getting good experience training against those marauding terrorist bands. Now in Manchuoku the Red Army operating out of Vladivostok have taken numerous losses from General Homma's forces strongly entrenched and backed by massive artillery batteries from Yenki to Kiamusze. This fortified defensive line is backed by Tanks that form a opportunistic counterattacking reserve force for General Homma's leisurely use. Further, around the Tasitsihar region, General Okamura's mountain screen was brushed aside by Soviet Armor and Infantry teams supported by roving dive bombing groups. The rest of the army group is likewise strongly entrenched, a fighter group organizing for aircover and Tanks are on the way to form the reserve countering force. Time to play Santa...I'll be back with a passage describing Pacific operations.

I'm going to break this down a little more, probably like every quarter as the action is obviously heating up. The last I left y'all with is, me as Allies, had just beaten off a very large attack by the AI IJN forces in "the slot". Well, after taking my licks, repairing my naval vessels, and completing the embarkation of a number of amphibious formations, I was headed west. That came to an abrupt hault as the IJN showed up again, with 6 DD groups, coupled with 3 CAs and 2 BBs with a CV group in the center, all highly teched. I immediately took losses but managed to barely get my transports out of the fray, with many taking damage. My idea was that since I had decimated the IJN in "the slot" that there would be nothing to impede my progress and I would take Rabaul, Truk, and the Marianas in one successful swoop. What misplaced optimism was that?:eek: Obviously I was at the mercy of failed intelligence...so what else is new???, so I backed off and brought my carrier groups forward to deal with this incursion, my timetable now severly interrupted. Finally after dispatching this IJN naval armada and sending half the fleet to Pearl and harbors in Australia for repairs I managed to take Rabaul and Truk, while Paratroopers landed on Eniwetok in the Marshalls. After securing and repairing the newly occupied installations land based airgroups were brought in to continue the advance to the Marianas at the end of March 1944. Elsewhere, the stalemate continues in Burma. The Japanese airforces have been deadly to any UK land units that venture into terrain where they do not have good aircover and the weather has been conducive to air operations all through the winter months. I need rain, storms, monsoons, I don't care what, but those damn Japs need to be grounded before I can go forward with my UK mobility upgrades. I don't want to even mention the disaster that is taking place in China. The Commies gone, the Japanese AI pummels anything of opportunity, with very high tech/accurate TAC bombers and Advanced 2 Fighters. there is no way to replace the losses so it is just a matter of time before this attrition allows the Jap Armies over the Lanchow mountainous terrain. The one probability to restrain this final push is to rebase all the heavy bombers the USA possesses, but one problem exists, no fighter escorts. After consultation with industrial leaders, the last remaining fighter airwings in the USA build Q have been initiated of which all 4 groups will be available by August 44. The question remains, can the Nationals hold out that long or perhaps the US bombers will have to go it alone? This situation is truly grim.

I agree Colin, this SC mod has the most open ended strategies of any I ever played, but the drawback is that it takes some time to complete a turn when everyone is active. I wouldn't mind if I could budget my time better, but life is full of interruptions and its a lot more satisfying to conclude a turn in one sitting. What is your estimate of doing a turn, timewise with some thought of course, when all the belligerents are at war and their OOBs are full.

I'm finding the 1.03 AI of PT is providing a refreshing challenge from either side, but especially the Japanese AI. Crank it up at "Expert + 2".

Indeed "challenging" my dear Ludi, excellence is, but never the less a worthy goal.

Agreed Rambo, the best, GW, it was all downhill after that, that moral public servant image, i mean.:mad: Kind of makes you want to get back to the basics? The simplier way always had that ease of understanding, not the "gray" areas the lawyers are so adept at creating, interpretation of "truth". What happened to "it is" or "it isn't"?:confused: The "Constitution" and the "Declaration" together are less than 10 pages. Where is "Luchenbach" Texas? Wayle...on!

Don't worry Hubert, Kuni's got things under control, you enjoy your holidays and we'll be chomping at the bit for that Global release. Told you that "what if" global would be the thing, I suspect it'll be the new mano vs mano watermark.:cool: Thanks for all the SC fun and enjoy your time off, Merry Christmas to all and to all a happy new year!

JJ, you're good, we know you would never champion any author as the final word, it is as you say, "food for thought", your reputation is highly respected here, so relax. Ludi, I have read "An Army at Dawn" and it is excellent, its a part of my library, but I cannot recollect "Day of Battle"...:confused:.....time for a visit to "Half-Price"......well maybe I'll check my bookshelves first, I'm warming to the title, but its not a recent read.

Currently I'm reading "The Path to Victory" by Douglas Porch, a good examination, albeit in hindsight of the Mediterranean campaign, my favorite theater. Its a great read but like so many historians offers multitudes of anecdotal recipes based on that Monday morning quarterback philosophy. The fact is, these guys never seem to elaborate on the intangibles in realistic terms, just like we do when we try and recreate a "what if " with these games of WW2 simulations. No man knows. Its very hard to not use your knowledge in hindsight and try and put yourself in the decision makers' shoes facing an unknown conclusion, hard to ignore what has already concluded. I'll be the first here to discuss the possibilities and passionately defend my line of reasoning with circumstantial evidence, but remember my friends we can't really know, just like the historical players, how a different decision here, an appropriately conceived action there would have opened up a whole set of different conclusions, its impossible for us mortal beings. But we can contemplate. Just remember its pure conjecture, so don't be so quick to judge the historical figures based upon hindsight, for a different route offers many branches and it was not us that was in the position of power making that educated decision, or so they thought. Many times we take action, when perhaps no action was required, but what's the price of inaction? We have history to shed a light but it is by no means bright and the many possibilities of the alternative will forever escape us....for no man knows.