Desert Dave

Well gee, I too have done some of the treacherous moaning & groaning, but, see, the things is... I INTENDED TO! Seems to me this is a fairly normal human undertaking... if we want to be tough as roofing nails, or really truly STOIC, we might consider a comment from an ORIGINAL... Once, when DIOGENES was mocked by the highly conformist people for having been sold into slavery by his native city (... forum), he said: "The people of Sinope condemned me to banishment, but I condemned them to be themselves and to remain where they are." And so it goes.

Sure wasn't, which is why I have long advocated breaking this category into two, or possibly 3 or even 4 separate research areas. And no, this would NOT cause undue complexity... how long would it actually take to peruse the options? After all, you are essentially subsuming the ENTIRE Industrial apparatus, with its many myriad intersections, into only ONE catch-all category, yes? First, IT would merely be those airy-scary theoretical advances, attained in think-tank type Laboratories... this should be less costly than any others, since, as we know, ScienCultists are a dime a dozen. More importantly, we might assign the most extreme MPP cost (... RE: another idea that has been floated... different MPP costs for EACH research category, a really great idea whose time has arrived... maybe, let us pray) to the area of... INFRASTRUCTURE, that is, applied Science, or "hard" improvements such as train tracks and factory stacks and mysteriously pale structures stuck willy-nilly on some oddly shimmering hill. The 3rd area could be LABOR. Training the work-force, and/or coercing reluctant Nihilists and Existentialists to agree that mindless manual repetition is indeed food, nay! and indeed!... a salving NECTAR for the Soul. BINGO! This would go a long, long way toward solving the apparent inequities in the various Nations' economic potential. If you wanted to be really elaborate, you could even have a 4th researchable area... EFFICIENCY, which would improve (... given that manual endeavors gradually degenerate... IE, Industry deteriorates over time if fresh and dedicated approaches are not ideally applied... the interface of human with Machine is NEVER static or predictable) with each success. This would be different than airy-scary theory, since it would entail actual management of resources. Very much agreed! This is the principal way that Germany in particular soars to an unrealistically high level of MPPs. The "underground resistance" in each conquered country would not merely be composed of active partisans, but RELUCTANT participants in everything from ball-bearing factories to greeting card companies. (... Ve haff annihilated wee kleine Country, in the name of greater prosperity spheres, vish yee were here!) Ah yea, that last part, IMHO, is the MOST important... if you can use SPECIAL EVENTS to alter the schematics of ANY of our above Economic Model suggestions, then you are achieving a measure of... UNPREDICTABILITY, ... which would perforce perfectly mimic the usual state of affairs when playing most other humans... the awe-full Gestalt is NEVER easily deciphered, at ANY particular moment in a "normal" Human apprehension, and so... it shouldn't be thus & so in a war-game, neither. :cool:

LOL! Mine don't work so fine neither! ah me, T Leary, that merry old band, that goofing & ghostly rambunctious - Hippie Clan! ... flowers stuck in rifled barrels, flowers stuck in hang-loose hair, flowers plucked from day-glo gardens, flowers - wild flowers! crazily waving - everywhere! ... but alas, those flowers, no, they just can't last whence tractors, or tanks, are smartly amassed, or... Presto! transform! the towering stacks of no-glo Lucre a-glowering so dumb-ly in high-shine banks... but, they may and they might! freshen the air! all around... a grave-site, or a Prophet's sorrowing stare O! yea... even frame a fey face! of a long lost lover, who, at long, long last, ...still cares... :cool:

I do. It mostly has to do with paying $50.00 for an item that was not remotely finished... in fact, was a muddled mess. Perhaps there are those who don't mind throwing away hard earned cash, but I am not one of them. And it has everything to do with providing a product that didn't match the exalted claims, not by a long shot. :eek: The ONLY way the word will get around about extremely shoddy merchandise, is... if someone makes it quite evident that they do not care for this kind of sloppy marketing, yes? Nothing wrong with that.

Extending your reach eh? Good idea, and given their many millenia of hard-learned experience, these 2 would surely know a little something about... War & Peace. Also, it will extend the parameters of this forum... be interesting to hear more from our European friends. Am looking forward to it.

Congratulations on a very fine piece of work. The over-all impression is one of... subtle grandeur. :cool: If you are also working on the map for SC2, I wish you luck... and, think... LARGE! (... to include most of Scandanavia, Persia, South Atlantic to mid-Africa, and... all the way to the mighty Mississipp!

I have been on this forum for nearly a year. There is a good and simple reason for that... I LIKE war-games. I like playing them and I like talking about them. I have started a separate thread in order to cover a couple areas of concern... to me and a few others. I only ask that it not be presto chango! consigned to Outer Mongolia... if the moderators deem it necessary, I would prefer that it be locked. Also, it is not fair to another if I "hijack" their thread. They have usually posted it for a good and specific reason... I will try to heed, and honor that personal impulse in the future. (... and, without doubt, there will be some, or many who will be uncomfortable with the confessional nature of this thread... that's expected, and so I hope you will just... whistle a little kick-heels tune and... nimbly pass on by) THE STRANGE: Recently SeaWolf wondered aloud if I were "on drugs." At first blush this seems to be a put-down. More serious thought might suggest that it is, or might be... a frustration... with the strange. We do not always appreciate the strange. We desire... Order out of Chaos! and when one of our immediate group is acting odd or unusual, we will call them out. Mostly, we do not simply say: What the hell is WRONG with you! No, that would be impolitic and impolite. We allude to some OTHER aggravating factor, and drugs is a common and handy device. We prefer to have Order. This is not merely an Evolutionary Imperative... it is also a matter of comfort. Who wishes to be made... uncomfortable? Yet, and this is vital, we will ALSO chafe at the arbitrary. We don't care to be circumscribed... to have a choking Circle drawn around our immediately perceived World. By anyone. Landlord or neighbor or Governor or even, a friend. All right, what am I saying here? I am saying this: I AM NOT taken aback or offended by SeaWolf's comment. Conversely, I am glad for the implicit challenge. I am glad that my narrow view has been... enlarged. The EMPATHIC: I will offer two examples. This is often better than mere explanantion or exegesis. 1) Can anyone here imagine just how difficult it likely... no, SURELY is... for the American soldiers in Iraq? They are asked to be considerate, and exceedingly careful of the built environment, and simultaneously, a social worker and some sort of Magic Man capable of inspiring immediate relief... AND accept the complaints and organic miseries of an unfamiliar family, so to speak... complaints!! that have built up over 30 torturous years. Meanwhile, they are circumscribed (... inserted in that choking Circle) by superior Officers, and the whims of Politicians, and the expectations of a very critical American & Foreign public, and loved ones back home who must be nearly frantic with worry. THEN! They are also asked to BEWARE! Any moment ANY person imposing or small might arrive... with a bomb or a random bullet. And so, as soldiers then, they are asked to... fight or die. To be empathic means that we can LITERALLY put ourselves in those exceptionally treacherous boots. And, we can also put ourselves in the place of all the people who have had their entire world turned upside down. Who is in charge? Where are the basics of Life, the water and clean air and safety for my family? Who could even do this, AND, with everywhere and everywhere at once! an EXPECTED success? 2) Example 2, in the way of a Hypothetical. Let's say there is a guy on this forum who is mostly concerned that all will get along. Who considerately welcomes every new participant. Who often acts as mediator and diplomat when some will become abrasive or impatient. Let's say that this guy asks for... oh, just a little scintillate sing-song in return... MAYBE, that he might be allowed to post a picture now and then. After all, this is a supreme and serious ART, when you can deftly combine words and images. But, another person blithely makes a comment that rudely intrudes and appears to denigrate the other one's innocent intentions. Empathy asks that EACH person TRY to put themselves in the other one's place, and TRY to see the greater world with another's eyes. From another perspective. Sure, it's damn near impossible to do! We can only TRY. And this can be complicated. Who could ever precisely match their OWN mood of the moment with every OTHER (... and constantly changing) mood that is out there? And so, it is true, we sometimes will... PROJECT... our OWN frustrations. If I were to say that someone SEEMS to be "controlling" or "impatient," it is very possible that I am worried that... I... am indeed the one who is... controlling and impatient. Upshot: I apologize to JJ (... in a recent incident where I was meaning to be jocular and at the same time, expressing a particular preference), and in fact, anyone else who is the recipient of some ignorant and perhaps even accidental comment that I make. Well hell, it is not "machismo" to act like this. Many will be... impatient with that attitude. But, I do NOT apologize for that. I have lived long enough to realize that words matter. Thoughts, even if imperfectly realized, CAN have some certain and serious effect. Instead of sparrows in the trees, today, these are the things to be, briefly, considered... the Strange and the Empathic. They seem not to go together in any usual way. Well, they CAN... dance a merry dance, and do. Strange to some is not strange to... another. And Empathic is required... in EVERY instance, if we are brave and able, and NOT just for those we like or admire. No, it is especially required for those with whom we are... unfamiliar. Well enough of this. Thanks for the time, and the space. It is, or can be, a gentle place... often ENOUGH... that we can breathe... fair and easy, now and again, and make of shared Life... a delightful embrace!

Likewise. Gee, Seawolf, if you only knew just how far off you actually are about that drug-testing remark... which only goes to show, you don't know me. And I don't know you, it's true. Meantime, I TRY not to abrade or chafe ANYONE... I do appreciate when they STAND UP and tell me if that's the case, as JJ has done... Agreed. If there was in fact something about any of my posts that was offensive, I hereby apologize. To all and any and sundry. Time to move on along and enjoy the brief breathing space we are allotted in what is really and actually... trust me, a terribly short life.

Seems like an EXTREME reaction, JJ, to what was a simple declaration that I personally can do without posted pictures. There are the rare times when you tend toward a "controlling" and "impatient" attitude. If you cannot accept some very MILD criticism, then... can you EVER appreciate something new? Insofar as some private concept you have of an "old Immer" or an "ACCEPTABLE Immer," I can only tell you that I TRY to live my live spontaneously and in grateful accord to the immediate moment. What I do NOT ordinarily do is edit my comments to fit some existing criteria, such as: "I wonder what JJ (... or anyone else for that matter) would think?" Hey, how about... let's go easy... go with the flow, eh? There are plenty of real and imposing issues in this fast breathing world to be concerned about. I have to wonder... is this one of them?

It's an ancient and arcane Latin expression... Hominus, Ominus Indignus... or, In English: There's a sucker born every minute!

Well... you DID make it for a whole eleven lines before the "urge" struck you again, that's pretty good! For myself, I don't really need to have pictures... I remember listening to baseball games in the 50s as a kid, and the one great thing about it was... you were required to make up your OWN pictures... somehow that was much more fun than having them supplied by a TV editor.

JJ, I think you and a few others are making this a bit too complicated, yes? I believe Hubert has endorsed an idea proposed long ago, where the subs would have "silent running" and that would allow them to move to & fro with a greater degree of freedom. Of course, they couldn't do any damage while in that silent state, but at least they could survive long enough to get to the Atlantic in the first place. I wouldn't favor having special "entry-exit" hexes however. Presumably we will have a larger map in SC2 anyway, and so the Royal Navy will have to cover a somewhat larger ocean.

And sometimes... pretty-petty politicians just... TAKE WHAT THEY WANT. :eek: (... Walt Kelley KNEW, intuitively, what he was saying... IF everyone could TRULY take a good long look in the mirror and NOT shy away from the strangeness :eek: that they see... ummmm, maybe, just maybe ...) As for instance, currently in the USA... now lorded over by a SELF-ish Plutocracy... say? whatever happened to noblesse oblige? ... Jeffersonian Democracy long, long, long time in decline and "the people" without sufficient education or resource (... and/or, TOO MUCH "Bread & Circus"... ie, witless Celebrity culture and mindless, mesmerizing T.V.) to re-assert the Common Good... sure, Alphonse! there USED TO BE... such an EARLY-Christian-like thing... from the neighborhood on up. LOL!!! The Mass Media has BECOME the Government, and occasionally, vice versa. :eek: You have to look, and look again, to find the avante-garde (... yet another GREAT French word!!) ideas that will... eventually... re-establish little-guy Democracy in America... it better happen soon... personally, I think it will. But, relentless vigilance is ever required...

Occam's Razor ... nicely applied! Same benefit should go to USA. ***In fact, I would like to see VARIABLE rates for each country... PERHAPS... even depending on the date. For example: Russia would start out at 7% in 1941, and max out at 10% by 1944. Italy would begin at 4% and go up to a top rate of 6% by the end of the war. Each country would have a certain rate that... :cool: ... would even be different... DEPENDING on our new random EVENTS. These "variable rates" would have to be rigorously play-tested, sure, but of course... yet, these would go a long, long way toward balancing the game WITHOUT making so very many intricate alterations, yes? As for the rest... I favor WAITING, patiently, for SC2... personally, I don't wish to spend another $20 bucks or so for a partial patch or update. I would rather spend the $30-40 (????) for the new and improved version. :cool:

Well... doggone... I just CAN'T do that... never have been able to do it... no matter WHO the authority figure... whether the old man or swaggering cops on the curb-side beat or... a certain ROTC shave-tail from Ohio State U. who in 1968 thought he was an Avatar arrived on Earth with a special mission... ah, no matter The Top got 'im straighted away lickety-split quick... these high ranking sergeants are the back-bone of any Army, etc, or... well, you get the idea. To the point, I am still NOT convinced that your premise is sufficient or justifying. I am no man's tank commander, and am approaching this quasi-intellectually, as you, but... How many soldiers can a limited series of HE shells knock out of action on any given assault? 10? 20? Even if it is in the hundreds, how many men are in a corps? An Army? 60-100,000? What is the terrain? What kind of concealment? What sort of AT weapons? ***Perhaps the armor could REDUCE READINESS instead? Against every single unit that it contacts on a given turn. Which suggests that I WOULD favor two movements for the armor unit... at 3 MPs per... AND, it could attack AT ANY TIME before or after either of its movements. As for your other comments... and BTW, your commentary, earlier and later, is excellent and surely contributes to a valuable discussion... in general, I am inclined to mostly let Hubert's design decisions alone. There are certain reasons for his choices, and I am satisfied that he did a great deal of research and careful application. However, deconstruction does have its purpose, as long as we all realize that changing one aspect will effect many many other parts of the game. Mostly disagree, since I am personally satisfied that tanks CANNOT perform the role of heavy artillery, nor "blow holes" in anything larger than a squad or company sized unit. Agree, but given my response to #1 on the list, I would go for: TA=2, TD=3. Excellent idea! :cool: I would rather see this an optional purchase, and not AUTOMATICALLY assigned. Sounds reasonable. You could also have... a base change of 8, without having to use the Operational move. OK. Also as optional purchase. Another good idea... has been proposed and championed since last Spring, I believe. I would also like to have separate tactical bombers. :cool: Maybe not. Special corps units that exceed average Army capabilites, such as the Marines or Commandos... were and are quite common in any era... often as various task-specific and detachable brigades. Far better to simply provide separate "special" units. Yes indeed, but I would ONLY give this benefit to the Tanks, as indicated earlier, which would make it JUST powerful... enough.

Exactly. :cool: FOR THIS PARTICULAR GAME DESIGN, soft-attack values for the armor do not change. Why should they? How else would you effectively counter the already imposing Axis advantages? If you increase the soft-attack values for each level of tank research, THEN the Axis superiority would be even more pronounced, yes? The way it works now, you have the Axis with armor advantage at the beginning... into the middle game. THEN, the Russians (... after all, WHO ELSE can, or should be able to turn back the bloody black tide?) will GRADUALLY achieve some EFFECTIVE counter. If they can, or are able to build more tanks (... INSTEAD OF putting money into research for anti-tank weapons), then you will surely see those huge tank battles on the Eastern Front. According to zappsweden's helpful chart, we can see that you have to reach L3 Anti-Tank in order to surpass the armor's static soft-attack value of 4. In all the games I have played, Russia rarely gets to this point... MOSTLY due to inability to afford many research chits until later in the campaign... until mid 1943 or even later. This seems appropriate, since we appreciate that "tank defense" also includes improved tank-destroyers, better doctrine & tactics, engineer units, as well as the task-specific small & large anti-tank weapons that become available. The early blitzkreig was successful due to mobility, and NOT some almost magical power that tanks might possess... they couldn't ASSAULT a corps or army sized unit in the beginning, nor in the middle, and certainly not towards the end of the war. Therefore, it MAY be appropriate that the soft-attack value WOULD NOT change over time, especially given that the tank REMAINS a basic artillery piece on wheels... sure, the gun size can be increased, and the armor improved, BUT, you still cannot blow a BIGGER hole through established corps or army sized units, can you? In a certain sense, the PzIII was EQUALLY as effective, early on... as was the Panther or Tiger later in the war. That being the case, why would the soft-attack value be increased? NO, the intrinsic value of the armor unit would still be its mobility, and ability to attack weakened units in the rear, to include HQs and AFs (... and artillery if it was a separate piece). Therefore, my conclusion would be: THE GAME AS DESIGNED is perfectly satisfactory AS IS. No need to fiddle with the combat values of tank versus anti-tank. Besides, it is up to each game player to ADJUST to given parameters... AND NOT up to a game designer to necessarily respond to each suggestion... which is actually an INDIVIDUAL preference, yes? I ALWAYS buy a certain number of tank units, no matter if I have achieved ANY tech increases. They are useful as shock units and encircling pieces... they needn't necessarily be posited as modern frontal-assault behemoths.

Well, that is one of the coolest aspects of this game. :cool: There is not a lot you can do with a typical WW2 game design, given the map and unit limitations, other than allowing for... some VARIATION in each strategic encounter. ****It's also true that Experience matters... which is why I NEVER play the +2 experience level... but that is another discussion. So. Most games (... especially those with nearly equal opponents) will depend on WHICH side gets WHICH research advances, and WHEN. But, this does not mean that the counter-techs are TOO POWERFUL... it merely means that you need be FLEXIBLE enough in your tactics so that you can take advantage of what is presented to you. If you try to adhere to a "favored approach" too strictly, then you will likely miss subtle but genuine opportunities to exploit the opponent's relative weakness, even if that opportunity is fleeting. In most cases, you will hop-scotch back & forth, always seeking the area where the opponent HAS NOT achieved their research advances. Specifically, I mostly don't bomb cities or resources with my Strat Bomber (... though you can occasionally catch subs or fleets in port, if you have gotten the long-range advance)... and hopefully SC2 will improve this important area... instead, I use it to reduce entrenchment (... this makes a decided difference, AND no hits are taken by the Air Fleets) and to keep the sea lanes clear. As for "anti-tank," you can invest in heavy tanks. Until you reach parity, or superiority, just utilize the armor for breakthroughs (... possibly attacking HQs, AFs, and decimated units pulled back for reinforcement) snatching cities that have been cleared, and as a kind of "super Recon unit." Sometimes we fall into the habit of ASSUMING that a game parameter NECESSARILY should PERFECTLY MIMIC the real, or the Historical... of course it shouldn't! It is sufficient that the possibilities be reasonable, but MOSTLY... EXCITING to consider, and execute. Serious credit is due the designer for providing a mechanism for making each game different... how many times have you CURSED the screen, or your cat or pet ferret, while you were waiting for a particular research advance... that REFUSED to happen... as though the program was quite literally and deliberately DEFYING you? And ONLY you! :eek: From reading the posts on this forum I am satisfied that nearly everyone has complained about the "luck" factor in one way or another... that is a good sign. It means that each game will offer new and fresh challenges... IMO, not enough has been written about how this variable research aspect of the game is actually... A GREAT EQUALIZER. Kudos to Hubert for insuring that VARIATION will maintain considerable interest. The proof is easy to realize... I have NOT tired of trying to counter all these UNEXPECTED events, and apparently many of the other players would agree. SC is the ONLY game I have played recently where that is mostly the norm, and not the exception.

Well hell, now what? :eek: All right, so JJ provides a clue and so I go on over to the General Forum and I read all that bountiful BS awhile... and, ahhh so! Look Les, like the old song says... "... nobody's right if everybody's wrong." Intellectual palaver ain't NEVER gonna cut it. It didn't mean anything back in the times when we all were breathing thick sweet air in that Garden Eden, or out on the Tundra or Savannah, and it won't next week or next year. Blah blah blah... who cares? Forget those guys who parse & moan and split pretty hairs... instead of tonight's kindling wood, and get back in here with the SC gang where you belong, yes?

Every game, whether played solo or against the AI (... actually versus... H.A.L.) is different, depending also on mood and daily inclinations and electrical storms in the area, etc. In general, I would say that 1) Anti-Air, and 2) Strategic Bombers are tremendously under-rated. . I almost always buy some of each of these. :cool: Of course, as we all realize, Industrial Tech is first & foremost important. No question, no debate, which is why I have always suggested that there either be NO REFUND on infrastructure improvements, or, that IT should somehow cost more... anyway, something that delays the powerful effects... which would also go a long way toward reducing the start-of-game Axis impact.

Both of these, Brad T's and CvM's AAR's were exceptionally well done, and I enjoyed reading them...

And here a few might have thought something daring or nefarious was afoot... :eek: The thing is, this kind of ACCIDENTAL outcome is the USUAL case. It is good to be reminded that - in EVERYTHING we do, see, or imagine, there are indeed many, many, many, many, many, many, many Possible explanations. Next time we read the newspaper, or look at a fancy Internet site, or converse with the neighbor, we will allow for all these kinds of OTHER EXPLANATIONS, And not be fooled or Chagrined so much.

I have been following this debate, if that's what it is, since it first came up some months ago. I would have to agree with those like Kuniworth who argue that it is... NOT WORTH the COST! So what if it delays the conquest of France, then Norway, or vice-versa? It hardly matters WHEN you complete the "... rounding up of the usual suspects," does it? What else are you going to do in 1941 anyway? There are only so many fertile fields to plow, yes? As Axis Hegemon, you may be briefly delayed on your research, and with your desperate purchases of mighty ME-109s & Stukas (... TOO MUCH Air Power is NOT, I repeat NOT... such a dilemma as many would have us suppose), but not by a lot... AND, as Mr K. and others have confidently stated, the early entry of Italy and USA is a certain boon! to the Allied prospects. :cool:

Ah La La, JJ... The New Jersey Dance Man A-parade in the street... you teeter Un-sheathed claw to heel, Like that mad cat in the midst Of a mid-summer leap - ! ! ! Between, Three bird-infest trees... sure! you bet, It's a pleasure :cool: To see... Poetics, Plain & simple. Far Far better than it's diametric opposite: Babbled foul language, That's East-West Unblessed, and... purposely Misunderstood... and, yea, Belmondo surely awaits, :eek: But fugue awhile and re-call, That was... a '57 Black & Gold FORD Fairlane w/blown-open 2 8 9 engine, And nifty Hurst Synchro-shifter, If you please!

If you do not post here, does that mean? That you do not exist, officially? :eek: If you do post here, but DO NOT indicate any preference, does that mean that you DO exist, BUT you are indecisive, or possibly worse, merely being... CONTRARY? If you make a comment like this, does that mean that you are megolamanic, melodramatic, or, like most of the 60s sort, then AND now, just... Self indulgent? I like Marlon Brando's line in The Wild Ones (... which, for all forum Cinema buffs, was originally titled - "Hot Blood") when someone asked: "What are you rebelling against?" He, outfit in VERY CLEAN, unsullied leathers, replied: "What have you got?" Well, survey or petition or plea, socialist, capitalist or green, I cast my vote for... some of each!

It's been said... "it's the little things in Life that truly matter," and, having lived ordinarly, and really quite strangely, for awhile, I can attest that... that sort of approach is truly too Cool... :cool: I concur with kurt88 about appropriate pictures for Special Events, and I sure hope! we will have many, many of these Events so to avidly ogle at. Also concur that better sound effects would increase aesthetic pleasure... speaking of which, Whether a GS turn-based game, or hip hip! a Monet-like holiday along the banks of the flaming gorgeous Seine , or... ahem, the desert-roughened Rio Grande... for those who... witlessly INSIST that "the French" are worthless human beings and hardly deserving of God's (mostly-American) Love, let alone! the discreetly divine approval of Television air-heads... well, anyhow, these "little things" can make ALL the difference in... le Monde oops, sacre bleu!! excuse Lately Incorrect me... I mean, The... for-ENGLISH-only World... ... whether you become IMMERSED in the Gestalt, or merely thrash your way through, yes, etc. I would also agree with Edwin P. about MORE DETAILED silhouettes for the various fighting equipment involved in that "Good War" - WW2, wherein Ancient Evil was apparently quite easy to locate and annihilate from a distance... though, Knights of Olde would surely shudder in their OLD Europe grave at such long range and REMOTE kind of one-sided contests, oh anyway, and etc. So, let's have NATION SPECIFIC silhouettes! on the events, AND on the small unit counters... just another example of some tiny thing that charms the hell out of the free-thinking Participant... akin I would suppose, to noticing and naming!! ... all the exquisite butterflys! that pirouette (... EGADS!!!!!!!!!! damn near IMPOSSIBLE to ELIMINATE those horrid! French words, ain't it... Kilroy! - gimmee some FRENCH fries, please...what? Freedom Fries ... nah, forget it Scam-Slinger, I ain't that back-brain Chauvinist, I'll just amble on over to somewhere else...) ... and sublimely flutter all across the banks of the... oddly despised!!... Seine... :cool: