Desert Dave

I would also disagree. "NO WAY" is an overstatement, if not an outright challenge. It surely is a fine line that Britain must walk, but they are quite capable of reinforcing the Med with just enough units to form a potent strike force near Alexandria and then proceed to steadily manuever westward toward Tobruk. This would necessarily preclude any great assistance to France, but delaying the inevitable in that theatre must be weighed against insuring that the Med remains a British lake. The transfer around the Cape allows continual and gradual reinforcement as long as care is taken to protect the shipping lane leading south. The German player can either commit to a bombing campaign against England -- in preparation for a possible Sea Lion or as a simple harrassment tactic...OR place sufficient Air in southern Italy/North Afrika to assist the spoiling black shirts. It costs a LOT -- either in MPPs if you Operate expensive units here & there, or in time, if you merely fly the Air to where it's needed. Also, they must choose when and if they will construct U-boats -- which might sortie and interdict any British troop movement headed 'round Africa, and Air and Army and Tank units, which could be gaining valuable experience in Norway or Sweden or Yugoslavia or Greece, etc, for the upcoming campaign in Russia. The thing is, I don't believe they can do all and everything, to include a Med-first strategy, and still contest many other areas. And, now that research in general and Industrial Tech in specific are slowed, they usually cannot field sufficient forces in these many multiple areas, AND build infrastructure and military units with any eye toward taking on Russia and USA. It will cost more for Axis to do the same thing that they used to do before the latest tweaks to the game. Perhaps extensive gaming will prove your point to be true to some unknown degree, we'll see. But, for now I am inclined to suggest that the Brits CAN counter any Axis forays into the Med. As with many other aspects of this game, it is all in the selection of strategy, both on-board and in research. And, in good "dice-rolls." And in timely research gains. And in how your opponent is feeling that day. And in... well, you get the idea.

Very true. This campaign sounds intriguing and I shall play it and provide some feed-back. Eventually, we may well reach a consensus on what is the best, and most balanced '39 scenario. Until then, everyone! let's have more mod ideas!

Take all the time you want! In what -- the Fairy Land, abound & grand! Only, while you are whiling awhile there, In that leaping, laughing! elfin air, Don't forget -- the purpose of your stay... It's a dream come true! -- Yay Hooray! The great beginnings... of -- SC2! :cool: As far as I know this is the very un-official announcement we have all been waiting for. It's pretty clear to me, at least, that we will indeed see an SC2, and I couldn't be more thrilled, both for Hubert and for all the greatly satisfied SC-1 game players. Sure enough, the making of an original game has quite likely been -- "a long strange trip," as some old hippie garage-band would arise to say, but surely worth it, every single step, false or static or true, eh? [ December 08, 2002, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

And so JPW, you have precisely stated the problem. Not enough ports means limited places for amphibious invasions. Since the number of ports & cities are tied into the economic value of each Industrial State, you cannot just plunk down ports wherever you please. If the next iteration of the game retains the present economic engine, then you are restricted as to possible solutions. If a potential SC2 has a larger map and a different economic engine then you likely will not be faced with this particular problem. As for the game as-is, the idea of A3R style bridge-heads, or beach-heads, as rambo has suggested, is a good one. Additionally, you could consider a "marine unit" that could attack the shore directly from shallow seas, and then advance if the combined assault from Air and Ship bombardment clears a space. If it fails to help clear the hex, then it will rightly be stuck in landing craft as a "sitting duck." This marine unit would be special, with appropriately higher cost, in order to serve the unique function of clearing the beach hex. It might be assumed that a mulberry or Seabees style engineer unit would be attached, and presto! when it lands, there is your temporary bridgehead. Temporary for what -- 2-3 turns maybe? With diminished supply capacity, so that turn 3 would provide you with less intact supply to draw from. But of course, all of this would have to be refined and approved by Hubert, IF it is even implemented in a possible SC2. As is, invasions are problematical because of having to first clear a hex near a port. Even the relentless AI has trouble doing that unless there are 5 or more greatly experienced air units. This is not the ideal solution, since there are invadable hexes (... and especially if we see a Pacific, or whole-world version) that do not allow the massing of nearby Air Fleets. What is always interesting -- there are countless ways to make a game better, and there are vast numbers of people dedicated to strategic gaming. We have waited a long, long, long time for a playable and reasonably historic WW2 GS game. Tremendously lucky for us, the game designer is open to a creative dialectic, and my gradually gathering sense is that the making of SC2 will be... an amazing adventure. :cool:

Couldn't agree more. Each of your statements is right on the money, which, apparently, is where most of the people involved in this absolute FIASCO of premature release... have put theirs. Worship the golden calf and expect some eventual prophetic-like comeuppance. :eek: Game companies are like renegade governments, who will continue to rely on pretty propaganda and mighty "mis-statements" if they suppose that they can get away with it. It is up to the gaming community, of which I have been a member for over 40 years, to put a stop to it. So, all right mister big talker, how? Example, I'll consider buying this game WHEN and IF it's done. Now, I wouldn't give you 5 crumpled bucks for it.

Yes, very nicely done! :cool: Let us know when all the units will be available for download. I am confused as to your comments on the medals. Ready for download, or not yet available?

Not in the least do you sound like a shill for SC. IMHO, a shill is like Jeff Vitous over at Wargamer.com who did not WARN anyone that HoI is very nearly... JUNK. That the game as presented is just not playable. It claims to be about WW2, but that is a very vague resemblence indeed. :eek: What are we to suppose? That Jeff V and all the other reviewers (and there were many other shills, just look around) got a copy of the game that contained no bugs and actually had an AI? Then, a true Paradox, inserted all those problems AFTER they reviewed HoI? What possible worth or function are these reviewers supposed to have -- merely to SHILL for a game that is incomplete... I recall NO comments about the bugs and unplayability out of the box. It is NOT for a game designer or publisher to tell consumers that they MUST wait for some future patch that may or may not fix the game, as advertised (... these guys didn't even include some of the items that they stated would be in there). That is nothing but utterly insolent nonsense. Where are your shills? There, amongst the incompetent reviewers, are your shills. :eek:

Big dreams, amazingly small results... too bad, especially for those who expected a playable game right out of the box, but at least Paradox gave it the old college try. Alas, IMO, a truly sophomoric effort. :eek: I would guess that it's mostly because -- we who are WW2-GS fanatics have waited so awfully long for a computerized game, and we tend to be easily seduced, AND easily disappointed. Perhaps a middle ground of harmony & balance, and as Bill has suggested -- patience. I am satisfied that SC has FAR more potential, since I personally do not belive that RTS is possible with such a massive canvas as... economic, and diplomatic, and industrial, and technological, and multi-militarized WW2. I would contend that it almost requires turn-based play, for the simple reason that there is just too much happening all over the place for any one human to keep track -- who wants a desperate click-fest? That kind of game works better when you have smaller battlefields and limited objectives. The next several months should provide us with some understanding of where Hubert and Fury plan to go, and so, we are invited to provide comments and suggestions that might enhance a potential SC2. It will be mighty exciting, all over again! :cool:

Very nice portrait of Napoleon. For those who like to know such aesthetic things, and I am always one of those, this is a re-presentation of a Baroque painting done by Jacques-Louis David, entitled: "Napoleon Crossing the Saint-Bernard." Based on an actual historical event -- Napoleon leading his French army across the Alps into Italy in 1800. Truth be told, he actually crossed over riding a donkey, which is no shame at'all, since Jesus the carpenter & radical rabble-rouser did the very same (... and not over the Alps, at least not literally , no, rather, into Jerusalem I mean to say) some 18 centuries prior.

So CvM, you are "partners" now in this excellent enterprise? ... next thing you know... Of course! now, a devoted secretary is required! Then, a logistics staff and maps of Northern Europe plastered all over the walls. Tiny magnetic tanks and planes and boats in a box near-by. Sure it's true! all staff members will attend night class to learn the Finnish language. And boots and snow parkas and snow-goggles stacked in the closets, just in case. Then the staff will be packed up -- kit & kaboodle, and moved to Helsinki. Media Advertisements will appear all across stunned and wondering Finland -- "Sign Up Now, See The World!" Certainly, the life & times of Alexander the Great will be memorized; essay test following. And gosh -- what's this? :confused: Trouble with Russia? Subs patrolling too close to Finnish shores? Putin REFUSES to become a soul-mate? Ah... it's just a pretty little day-dream, isn't it CvM? ... CvM?? :eek:

Those kinds of brain-stem-stunned accusers are like the very ones who condemned Socrates, so I wouldn't worry a jot over them. No doubt the war-profiteers have benefited from EVERY WAR in human history (... as the oil cowboys are intending to do... NOW), but at some point, just enough people will wise up, and put a crow-bar in those Clown-waving-stupidly-on-Unicycle sorts of shenanigans, you bet! :cool:

It may be very, very wise indeed. No need to unnecesarily trash another developer, but in this instance they have pushed that game out FAR too prematurely. :eek: There are more BUGS in that game than there are crooked movie-agents in Los Angeles, and trust me, there are a whole helluva over-flow of those! This is an example of extended beta-testing being done by the game-buying public, and it is B**S***, plain and simple. Sure, the patches will help (... maybe, just maybe by V 1.03), but many, if not a majority of game buyers DO NOT patronize forum sites, and so -- what are they supposed to do? When they expect to open the box and be able to play right away a REASONABLE re-creation of WW2? Retailers mostly won't refund if the game-box is open, and how many game companies will send a refund check? At least, SC is playable right out of the box, and now that we have a chance to compare the debut of both games, it is surely fair to say that Fury and SC have done a much better job of providing quality assurance. **BTW, the Wargamer site has recommended SC in it's Holiday gift shopping guide, so yet another positive statement by those who usually know -- the latest and greatest state of wargaming.

Well done CvM! :cool: And, already 500+ visitors! Soon enough you will have streaming banners and pop-up ads for day-glo skateboards and Gothic headbands, yes? Being from another, less techno-savvy generation, and given that I didn't have a computer until 5 or so years ago, it always amazes me when someone is able to set up a fully functioning web-site. My son did it for his movie company, but I still don't have the slightest notion how, even though he tried and tried to explain it... I have been hearing that blog-sites are all the newest rage... ah it's all right, I'll stick to the Raven-feather & built-in ink-well on my desk.

There are many of us, and I am absolutely one of those, who surely believe that a realistic Battle of the Atlantic is not merely some side-show, but a necessary component of WW2. :cool: I realize that the size of the Atlantic ocean is the main difficulty here, so one solution would be to change the focus and divide up the seas into Zones. You would then have to use search -- utilizing available air and pure chance encounters (... you could place ships into "patrol-mode" by way of a drop-down order -- hey, while we're at it, let's allow German surface ships to be raiders as well, AND have Murmansk convoys also!), as a method for determining whether there will indeed be a battle. Or, as Hubert has suggested, allowing subs to run silent or be a raider or operate normally on the surface. The idea for stepping-stones as with Iceland is also possible (good ideas JJ) but somehow I do hope that we CAN implement this critical aspect of WW2 in a future SC.

Given the intense interest in WW2 -- not only for gamers, but Historians and film-makers as well (... after all, it is the ultimate Good vs Evil encounter, and the technology was just on the cusp of mutually assured destruction) then the only surprise is how long it took enterprising developers to get to this point. Maybe it was programming and computer capabilities finally catching up to sincere and ancient interest (... many of us have played AH and SPI games for quite some time, but realistically, we do not make up a huge market), or the flood of WW2 movies and Big Media supported nostalgia for the older generation's "good war," but whatever it was, we are benefitting from it. As Bill has said, it is rather daunting to consider a RTS in this GS genre, and I tend to prefer turn-based games since there is so very much that is happening all over the map. I was never fond of "click-fests," but some developers are now trying to combine the best of both worlds, and the jury is out. Whether HoI can pull it off is questionable, but good to see them try. More choices are usually better than a few, which is what consumer capitalism is all about, yes? (... disregarding the debate about whether that is good or bad for the Earth ecology) I too am yet partial to SC and the potential remains enormous. As is, SC is the one WW2 game that allows a combination of comprehensiveness, a pretty good historical framework and pure and simple game-playing FUN. From what I have seen, HoI has some ways to go to attain even that.

It is my opinion that there should NOT be ANY Free French units to argue about in the first place. We have the strange instance of French naval vessels that have been sunk, re-appearing in Vichy ports. We have the even stranger instance of a full Free French corps helping the Allies defend Britain or North Afrika. Can anyone establish historically -- at what point in the war the Free French made any APPRECIABLE difference in the strategic outcome? Sure enough, marching in with colors streaming AFTER a grateful city has been reclaimed is important and vital for post-war French resolve (... in particular, for prescient and realpolitik warriors, in French Indo-China). Yet, just as with the Maquis, the French participation -- post-collapse of '40, is truly over indulged... perhaps, in appreciation for the deservedly renowned museums and other "catholic" cultural achievments? However, IMHO, this is one "gamey" aspect of SC that definitely needs some tweaking.

No doubt about it. I have long argued that Industrial Tech should be a separate category. Not only for the cost of placing a chit in research, but also -- there should NOT be a refund at all. If the new patch does indeed implement the 50% penalty for moving chits around, then you are most asssuredly going to see some different strategies. Who can afford to blithely throw away 500-1000 or more MPPs? :eek: We will have to be FAR more selective when we choose what to research, and when... and this can only help the game balance. For instance, I can foresee some players spreading tech-chits around to such an extent that they might not have more than 2, or possibly 3 in any one area. When you start totalling up the other military units that could have been purchased with those 1000+ MPPs, you are entering a whole new arena in terms of balance, most especially when it comes to playing a human opponent. With the AI, you can indeed make small and fairly non-consequential mistakes. With a very good opponent you will pay for each and EVERY one of those seemingly insignificant "research calculation errors."

And that's the way that I play it as well. Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean that is SHOULD be. This applies to gaming, and, in the interests of harmony and balance and this-worldly contentment, just about anything else that can be named. Besides, with the small ocean, and equally under-represented North American continent, to do otherwise is taking advantage of a quirk, in that USA and Canada are merely place-holders for MPP production, and not genuinely intended as strategic targets. Though, perhaps some might enjoy doing in the game what would be IMPOSSIBLE in real life, whether 60 odd years ago, or now. The USA is not a collection of states, or even a geography --it is a sort of unique Utopian IDEAL, as Plato once spoke about in his Republic and those are not so awful easily conquered, true?

Actually, it is quite easy to play another human. TCP/IP (... which we sometimes take for granted; not many have done it as well as Hubert has) adds a dimension that encourages daring gameplay, since you have to constantly react to things you've never seen before -- you are a Stranger in a Strange Land, over and over again. PBEM is good too, though you do have to be more patient. In either event, you can use the ample chat space to get to know your opponent and that alone makes it worthwhile... resulting in more diplomatic and considerate exchanges instead of misunderstandings due to... "two-dimensional ignorance." Solo play is also great fun, and no doubt there are AI strategies that can be easily circumvented, but the scenario mods that many have created enable you to try out different approaches. I have played just about all the WW2 strategy games, both computer and board-games, and I have rarely had so much sheer FUN as with SC, and you know what? IMO, it's only going to get better. :cool:

I am thinking that the next patch will address that issue. Better research development and achievement will tame that unruly Air beast. While I can understand the desire for more control over air units, and more detail in terms of specific activities, my feeling is that SC models the Air war pretty well. :cool: These good ideas can be debated for SC2. After all, this is a GRAND strategy game, and some finer aspects must be generalized, as is done with Anit-Tank and otherwise improved unit categories. One thing you do have to pay attention to -- the placement (or, removal -- out of range) of Air Units. This can be an "art" in itself, paying strict attention to which HQs are where. Given the parameters that have been installed, it then becomes necessary to adapt your strategies to the particular game at hand, and, as is mostly the case in this instance -- or indeed any real-life situation... not the other way around.

Boy, that's for sure JJ! Would be nice if the AI would just act like stand-up, face to face, straight shooting humans! That way, if something was gone wrong, or somehow misunderstood, then you wouldn't have to deal with arcane and obtuse messages, yes?

I'm not convinced that the interceptors do indeed take more damage than the attackers. IIRC, Hubert has already stated that it is NOT the case, and lacking sufficient evidence to the contrary, I am inclined to agree. I have played many games, both solo and VS human opponents, and I would suggest that it might very well be better to actively contest any Allied bombing strategem. If you keep your most experienced and highest rated HQ in northern France, along with your 2 or 3 most experienced Air Fleets, you can effectively counter any Allied bombing campaign. This serves two purposes: 1) Prevents Allied Air Fleets from gaining easy & excessive experience, and 2) Provides Axis HQ and AFs with additional experience. At the least, and more usually, both sides AFs remain about the same in experience levels, since they tend to whittle each other down. You can then either keep one or two there to counter premature (... at least by the AI) invasion of Brest area, or transfer most to the East Front where they will prove plenty powerful indeed. Now, this will prevent other uses of the Air Fleets, but I have found that they are not really needed elsewhere -- until Barbarossa. They are marginally effective in Sweden. A one-turn conquest of Norway surely would require their use, but I will often fly what is required up to northern Denmark (without using expensive Operational moves) and then fly them back to northern France. I would agree that Strategic Bombing could use some tweaking, which will likely have to wait for SC2, but there are ALWAYS counter-ploys that you might enact, especially in regard to Air experience. Why would you want to just let the Allied Air build up massive amounts of experience for their AFs and SBs? When the invasion of Fortress Europa occurs, it is then extremely difficult to counter those vastly experienced Allied Air units. Forgot to add: very true that researching AA (AND achieving some advances!) is also quite helpful. Against the AI, I routinely invest at least one chit in AA. Against human opponents, it all depends on their choice of air doctrines. [ November 18, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

I agree, and I don't go there anymore either. The Net can be many things, and there is always the issue of having to make enough $$ to survive, but they ought to re-consider this policy, especially for something as (relatively) insignificant as a game review. If I were an executive in a place like that, I would offer game reviews for free, much in the way that grocery stores will have plenty of "loss leaders." You may merely break even on some products, but those are necessary for "good will," and to attract new customers. (... I would imagine that this is part of the rationale behind game forums -- word of mouth will sell more games than any advertisements, no matter how clever or enticing) Wargamer's site apparently makes it over the top (barely, they always say) by soliciting contributions. Others by using those annoying pop-up advertisements. Gamespot is just not that good, IMO, to get away with premium service charges. You have to really offer something unique and in demand to do that.

You guys are the cat's-pajamas, you bet, And thanks for the encouragement. Ain't no cartoon-Joe gonna dis-rupt The goings on at that Club 47, no, no... (... well, tried again, and I still get URLMON.dll rejection notice on that there thread, and nobody told me what? even though I asked, so I just don't know...) Alas, Too many things to do, Like tie 3 or 5 shoelaces, And visit some awful exotic places, And buy a shank of mandrake root, And a twice-rumpled undertaker's suit, And also, read the signs-of-the-times In the upper left corner (as you face the back wall, trying mightily NOT to panic) of the tiny closet where Saint John of the Cross was Once upon a time quite rudely imprisoned, see There's something there That greatly interests... ... Belmondo? That time traveling super-spy? What drives a midnight-black '57 Ford Fairlane Rag-top -- has this shard of lightning-gold so Bold to behold! on the side? And a hi-rise Edelbrock manifold With dual-quads sittin' spittin' Special-refined octane, on top? Well, Haven't heard from him of late, And don't know what naked lunch is on 'is plate, Although... Mabel Terkel called And I was sore troubled to learn Of her recent day-dream... seems She was visited and then adept-ly soothed, But doesn't have a clue (... do you?) About what it all means, ..nor do I. But when I do -- you be-bop hep-cats With Charlie Parker horn-notes enhancing Odd dancing in yer eyes, Who's got shades shaped like the deuce Of spades -- stem down and side by side! Will be the first to know, you bet! :cool:

Moderators: To add to the anecdotal evidence: The other evening I tried posting a message, and after I hit "add reply" it just disappeared (I made a comment about it on that "History..." thread). That had never happened before. It was a reply to this rambo character. Also, I cannot post in the Free French thread. I keep getting kicked out, and that also had never happened in 6 months, so perhaps something has been tampered with there as well? I mentioned that I thought it had to do with coding for inserting pictures. Well, it's happened again. I was about to post a reply to General Bilote a couple minutes ago, and the quote I copied suddenly became something else entirely. Seems like there is some strange activity still going on. [ November 16, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]