Desert Dave

Well JJ, I appreciate the reference to Babe Ruth, But, truth be told, I more accurately resemble Wally Pipp, or Walter Mitty... also very true That you are an old ball-playing Adept, Closely akin to... Walter "Big Train" Johnson... and more likely that I have Quite accidentally connected With a dipsy-doodle oofus pitch From Satchel Paige (... don't look! Back, somethin' might be Gaining on you!...) The thing is, ANYONE can become too immersed, at times, In anything at all... but, not a problem, Since this mostly happens when you CARE About it... and it is very apparent That you do indeed care about SC And all of the folks who post here... :cool: Sometimes I just take a little time off From the board, to catch up on other projects, And that seems to help me Keep a necessary perspective. (... but, for the love of Dance-Man Bojangles, THROW AWAY that half-eaten green bologna sandwich!)

LOL! Ah JJ, Lord love a Guppie, You Sir, surely crack me up! One can just picture you (... perhaps, Walter Matthau, in The Odd Couple will do) Hunkered over spluttering, muttering, in the official SC game-playing computer room, a half-eaten green bologna sandwich on a little plate decorated with blooming blue flowers, and hair sticking up every which-a-way and here comes!! Doggone if it don't! :eek: CHAOS yet again! to meddle most malign and malicious! in your night and in your day... ... as knitting needles flip & fall Clickety-clack, to the next-door floor, And refrigerator magnets take wing & tear away! And thumb-tacks crash from the bulletin board, And Ying becomes Yang - and look! Listen... crash-bang! The plow-share hath replaced The hasty harsh word and the dull, puny sword... Well, NOW I can sleep soundly And dream of pretty damsels & dames, and winsome waifs a-dance in the rain, sure, you bet!... since ol' JJ Has set it all! ship-shape and straight! Chaos has been fooled, schooled & befuddled (... see, who says things've gotta make sense... better by far when the dish... DOESN'T... run away with the spoon) And ALL such-like scam & tomfoolery, (... always! skulking oddly about) Has at last! ... once and for all! ... been put to the rout!

Terrific RIFF on the beleaguered Male, JJ! LOL! One can nearly hear... the blue-note catastrophe clash of... Miles Davis... lingering in the background, like little Shoo-Shrew birds tripping on an apron-string... ... although, Latest research from Bio- and Psycho- and Socio- realms... :eek: The current Western Female is becoming ever more INDEPENDENT... of monetary inducement, of old patriarchal imaging, AND Of American Males in general... just a cautionary note, ah, so la, perhaps it is Charlie Parker listless on the slam-street lam... But, the current generation of Go! Getters might have to appreciate that the current generation of not so easily Begottens... Do not heark & cotton to the old ways of slick seduction... well, I don't have to worry... I wonder who does? Wish to work, co-exist, co-ingratiate, with a Female boss?

Wow! :cool: Many tremendous and thoughtful ideas have been proposed of late, as befitting a hard-corps group of gamers, for... another game. Probably not Hubert's game, but, some sort of designer's work-shop game that would be interesting to try out... I am looking forward to the eventual Demo. Likely, MOST of these great ideas were, at one point, considered, then rejected by Hubert. Very true that most of these ideas, including mine, already exist in some other board or computer game. Hard to imagine that Hubert is not already aware of them. William of Ockham, a Franciscan monk of the 14th century, had some fine advice: 1) No unnecessary assumptions should be made (... the word "cat" does not remotely describe any PARTICULAR cat that you might see sauntering along the alley-way) AND, 2) The most parsimonious/simple explanation is the best one (... all is not relative). And so, I shall propose that there is ONE FINAL PATCH, knowing full well that this is quite unlikely to happen... Hubert has already hinted that he is looking forward, toward SC2, and not backward. To solve the apparent imbalance that remains (... at least, among Grogs... not to forget, however, that well over 99% of Fury's buying public does not comment on any forum) I propose 3 simple adjustments. This would go a long way toward satisfying the LESS THAN ONE PER-CENT of us who would indeed like to see the Allies arise right up! and smite the unholy Reich. 1) Reduce the plunder by 20-25%. Or, add one more category (... with new experience level at 1 & 1/2 medals). 2) Adapting a suggestion originally made by Bill Macon I believe, change USA and Russia's Industrial Tech benefits to 10-10-10-10-10, keeping it at 5 for each advance for all others. ***3) Reduce the combat benefits of attacking with EXPERIENCED units... by 20 to 25%. RATIONALE: The first two would be OPTIONAL, so that essentially we would keep the same game that we currently have. Without experience benefits, the perceived Air Power problem would be diminished, if not eliminated altogether (... as indeed it would be by the other two suggestions). With better results from Industrial Tech advances, USA and Russia would gradually and eventually become stronger, duplicating the historical situation. And, the reduced plunder would not allow the Axis to command TOO MANY units, which seems to be a simpler method than having elaborate manpower/unit restrictions. Well, we all have had our own ideas about how to improve the original SC, and what we would especially like to see in SC2. No doubt this is a favored past-time, one that I enjoy immensely as well. I hope Hubert will keep them in mind. And so, like Alexander the Great, boy wonder, Hubert will likely apply his very own Razor to these many interesting and thoughtful ideas, which are... a unique kind of "Grognard's Gordian Knot." No reason to act in a hurry or in haste, No need to wield the gem-studded Sword, (The Eastern Bull is not so easily gored) Raise the blade - high, and higher! A simple, parsimonious FLASH! slash! Of ol' Occam's Razor, Is all that's required.

Surely, We all do it differently. Whether wondering - to what purpose? The Lotus, or Cactus Flower, Or, how we contribute on a Forum - some Will provide historical insight, Some will deftly make a mod, And others will... analzye. Me? I TRY (yeah, yeah, I usually fail... so what?) to Provide some... ah, serious Or clown-like Aesthetic As the mood might strike me. So, hip hip, here we go, *************** Tale #1: If you examine Michelangelo's stupendous statue Of David, you will sooner than later Gasp! to notice that David's... HANDS... are Out of proportion! to the rest of his Physique. They are far too large! :eek: Signifying... what? Michelangelo wished to portray the latent POWER Of David's acts & intentions? After all, he had only recently slain That plodding but imposing! Goliath! Does he mean to say? That David's hands represent a potential Creative imagination... well, sure they could, Symbollically. Or, was it a delightful ACCIDENT of design. (... realizing right along with S Freud, that there ARE... NO... accidents) And, to the point, That Michelangelo deliberately skewed The usual norm, And, could actually CARE LESS what Any might make of his personally achieved Work of Art? The designer of any unique thing, including WW2 games, may or may not choose to say Why or what-for. He or she is ENTITLED to A secret nonchalance. ******************* Tale #2: As a one-time shade-tree mechanic (... I might Summon from the ever-morphic world That which I know best and somewhat understand As a method of... imperfect communication) I present to your discriminating view, A random array of assorted gears & devices And otherwise minutely machine-tooled parts. Once, I insist, This constituted a transmission From a 1957 Studebaker Golden Hawk. Then, I carry the pieces to a flower-flush park. I arrange them on a picnic blanket. I post a sign: "Please, all passers-by, tell me what you see." 1st passer-by: "Hmmm, this must be a disassembled Machine of some sort, perhaps For... perpetual motion?" 2nd passer-by: "No, no, it is a secret project Intended to carry stray Aliens Back from whence they came!" 3rd passer-by: "You are both confused and as Clueless as can be. I should know, I am a retired Automotive Engineer, Thoroughly trained in recognizing Any and all mechanical devices! This my foolish friends Is a Transmission! Broken down and modernly de-constructed So that precise Deduction Might carry the day! And hey by the way, It is... from a 1956 Buick Roadmaster, You know, that grand Detroit design That had the port-holes On the fenders?" ************* Well, we can all point out our very own Deduced & de-constructed impressions of SC. I have done it, You have done it, We each have done it. May we remember this: Hubert has created A very unique and quite accomplished game ... OUT OF THIN AIR! :cool: It DIDN'T EXIST last year at this time! He deserves more than merely appreciation, He deserves CONSIDERATION. How hard would it be for any Creator To have to listen to constant And (... mostly well-meaning) critiques? It would be hard for me. How about you? I am NOT suggesting that we forego Our suggestions and comments. I am ONLY suggesting that we take a moment And fully realize, and appreciate, Just how unusual it is for a designer To actively participate In an ongoing forum. That's ALL I mean to say, Aesthetically, as is my peculiar bent :eek: , And, In a cautionary way.

Well, we have arrived at a similar idea almost simultaneously... but, the thing is, what if you wanted ONLY marine tech but not Airborne? It doesn't seem that much of a problem to include several more Tech areas, especially in terms of game time necessary to assess your specific strategic needs. There could be limits on how many of these "Special Op" units could be deployed, AND, the expenditure required to build and research these areas would likely limit their use. Only those nations with over-riding interest in deploying them would invest in them, yes? Nonetheless, your "Operational Tech" idea is a good one, and might well prove to be the better solution.

Shaka of Carthage (... great name BTW... how did you happen to choose it?): I guess I am presuming that the original concept of Air Fleet power (... and, shore bombardment) will be reduced/modified in some new potential iteration of SC. Evidence from my many games reveals that all too often the Air and Ships -- to include Carriers, are simply not enough to dislodge the defender. This is especially true if you employ the strategy of contesting Allied Air assaults right from the very beginning. Then, they cannot build up so very much experience that they are nearly impossible to counter-attack once D-Day has finally commenced. As we realize, the Axis player can simply rotate corps from the northern to western side of France so to foil almost every Allied invasion (... and here I presume that by far the majority of games are solo against the AI... it surely matters that a workable solution be found for all of those who play solo, yes?). After all, the Allies, no matter what the Air superiority, cannot eliminate enough defending units in order to establish a viable beach-head. Sometimes they will get one or two units ashore, but they are then quickly surrounded and pounded down at the defender's leisure. And besides, IMHO, it is not realistic to expect Air and Shore bombardment to clear a hex. I would agree with all of those who argue that Air power, no matter how dominant, simply cannot "kill" a corps sized unit. Reduce readiness mostly, but, that is another thread debate. And so, unlike your premise, mine does NOT assume that we will always be invading an EMPTY HEX. The powerful marine unit is needed to help clear an OCCUPIED hex.

I definitely like Bill's idea of having readiness reduced according to how many turns are spent at sea. This seems more realistic than actual strength point losses. Also, risking one of your very valuable HQs at Sea should indeed reduce the amount of readiness loss. :cool: In any event, I would favor some certain game device to curtail all those gamey nuisance raids. JJ, as for your idea about limiting the number of amphibious units allowed, this would be problematical. After all, just ONE corps sized amphib unit is rarely going to be able to establish (... and then hold) a sufficient perimeter to permit eventual reinforcement, especially in France. There will probably be instances when 2 or 3 marine units will be required in order to attack an entrenched defender, allowing one or more surviving invaders to land. Perhaps the expense of creating such a marine unit should be the only limiting factor? Although here, 4 Xs the transport cost seems a bit high... how about 3 Xs with L0 tech and this reduced by one level for each advance? And consequently, in regard to the research improvements, I would suggest that these areas do not HAVE to be L0 all the way up to L5. Why not allow some researchable techs to only go as high as 2, or 3? Thus, the "marine tech" (... which would include all of those many myriad factors which you have previously alluded to, JJ) would max out at, say L2. L0 would allow the most rudimentary landing operations, whereas each of the next 2 levels would incrementally improve the attack strength of our generic "marine" unit, AND reduce the amphib transport cost. Speaking of which, several other tech areas could also be reduced, such as rockets. After all, why can't the various techs all have their own maximum level? I am presuming (... praying, actually) that our Tech Tree will grow a little larger, so that the new Airborne tech! could also max out at L2. And of course, the various techs would each have their own unique costs to implement. Finally, I would favor a reduction in the effects of shore bombardment, BUT... the range increased to 2 hexes (... however, only coastal hexes may be attacked). I fully agree that the "invasion support" concept includes random movement and evasion, and does NOT necessarily imply that the bombarding ships are standing static, 100 miles from shore.

My intention was to assert that there should be NO amphibious landings at all, unless a "marine" type unit is involved. A "marine unit" is not merely a unique USA-type Marine Corps, but a combination of: 1) 15,000 or so marines, 2) 15,000 or so Army (... historical landings in the Pacific indicate this to be true... the Marines mostly fought ashore at the first, but in our game scale of 2-4 weeks, the Army was indeed IMMEDIATELY behind them, if not actually part of the initial invasion), 3) various support and beach-clearing brigades, 4) specialized landing craft and handlers, 5) small naval vessels involved in coastal harrassment and defense against mines & the enemy's smaller craft, and 6) sufficient supply & HQ type attachments, etc, etc. All in all, just about a "corps" sized landing unit. Trying to dislodge a "corps" sized defender, which also includes such specialized personnel as City or Port Security, coastal batteries, civilian resistors brusquely handed small weapons and told to fight or die, and of course! JJ's citizen soldiers running about with lanterns & broomsticks. The sole intent is to get a viable and sustainable military unit ASHORE. Also, to avoid having to take a port on the first few turns, which incidentally makes Brest entirely more important than it actually was. I have never been one who would take everything "literally" and suppose that a "Marine Corps" was actually made up of ONLY 60,000 specially trained marines. Like many other game concepts, it would be a generalized unit that would surely include all the other support craft and personnel that I previously mentioned.

LOL! Ah lo, say it ain't so, Joe... Well, "dem Bums" are now "dese Corporate entities."

JJ & Shaka: If your invading unit is merely a Corps, then you have the problem of trying to establish enough STRIKING power to dislodge the (... sometimes entrenched) defender. If you do not allow a special marine unit, where does this invasion POWER come from? A plain old corps with "amphibious ability" would not have enough attack strength to even get ashore, would it? Since it is generally agreed that Air alone shouldn't have quite so much power against ground units, and that shore bombardment is just too potent relative to actual historical performance, you are left with the problem of how? to eliminate the coastal defender. If there were retreat rules, this could be fairly easily solved. But there aren't. So. Provide a Marine unit, which would be more powerful than a mere corps, AND have an invasion turn attack bonus (... I appreciate the concern that ONLY the USA, and to some extent, Britain, had very many of these highly specialized marine troops, well, we can assume that a "what-if" game would allow other countries to build them... one way would be to tie it to a specific research tech, which would provide sufficient rationale, yes?) Just enough of these very expensive units (... which would also partly alleviate the problem of the casual and aggravating nuisance raids)and you could clear 2 or 3 consecutive coastal hexes and then land a Mulberry, and at last... slowly and eventually establish a perimeter that can be reinforced. Success would not be guaranteed, but at least the Germans would have to defend Fortress Europa with somewhat substantial reinforcement, thereby relieving the pressure on the East Front.

Les the Sarge, Rather than try to explain the how & why of Hubert's connection with the glorious game of baseball, I offer a reprise of a post that I made last July 14th: ********** Another good review, so what's that? Hubert's batting 3 for 3! Which is better than any of the current crop of Toronto Blue Jays, eh? Hey! I've got it! Now that Hubert is becoming rich and famous, he can buy the Jays , re-name them the Toronto Fury and who knows? In 20 or 30 years they can challenge the mighty New York Yankees! And, to save a little money -- no need for an error-prone human manager, they can use Hubert's Amazing Logic, or... H.A.L. for short. I can see it now, Summer of 2003... HAL: Lay down a sacrifice bunt. BENCH: But, Skip, we're down 13 to nothing and it's the bottom of the 9th already! HAL: H.A.L. is infallible. BENCH: And there are two outs! HAL: H.A.L. is not only infallible, but has uncountable friends in extremely high places... BENCH: Who's that? -- Spiderman? Yeah, is he still hanging around town trying to solve the garbage collector's strike? HAL: ...and in low places as well, like the waterfront docks of 'Jersey. BENCH: ... Hey Mack! Lay that baby on down... ********** If you were wondering about my reference to Joe Hardy , well, he was the main character in a fictional book from 1954 entitled "The Year the Yankees Lost the Pennant," by Douglass Wallop. It was later made into a successful stage play and then a movie starring Ray Walston (... quite comedically devious as the Devil) and Gwen Verdon as the temptress, with Tab Hunter as the average Joe. It was a take-off on the ancient Doctor Faustus legend, where a man trades his soul for "success" in the material world. In the story, Joe Hardy is an old Washington Senators fan who bemoans the Damn! Yankees (... the title of the movie musical) who seem to win every year, and so, one very strange evening he is visited by the Devil, who barters with Joe and gives him temporary youth and... an extraordinary baseball ability so that he can play for his beloved Senators and help them defeat the mighty despised Yankees. Anyway, there you have it. I wasn't deliberately trying to be obscure.

Ah, this IS good news, When the Pinstripes are awkwardly strewed, Or beautifully askew, sure, ... God's in His Heaven, And all's right with the World.

The simplest solution is to provide special Marine units. Presto! their higher cost would account for the specific landing-craft required. Alternately, this could be another tech to research on our expanded tech tree. Also, as several have suggested, there can be some sort of Mulberry or otherwise established temporary port, say, lasting 3 turns. Then, either capture a port (... sure enough, there needs be a larger map and a couple more ports in northern France) or another one must be landed. I also like the idea - I think it was in another thread, though I forget who came up with it, sorry, but... for each turn (after the first) at sea, there is a 1 strength point penalty, which would allow for the usual attrition due to failure of physic or psychic, and/or casualties from shore batteries and the like. Absolutely no doubt this MUST be high on the list of changes for a potential SC2, since the utter inability of the Allied AI to get ashore in France is the major reason the Axis can ultimately defeat Russia. :eek: Solve this particular difficulty and you have eliminated MANY other proposed solutions to the apparent imbalance in the game.

Well, I suspect Hubert is down in Gold Coast, Florida, trying mightily to whip the Toronto Fury into competitive baseball shape. :cool: Now but of course this may well be a treacherous proposition, given that them Damn! Yankees are trying every scam-scheme imaginable to buy yet another pennant! :eek: What is needed, I think, is for Joe Hardy to come out of retirement, or Purgatory (... after all, he DID have truck with that dastardly Devil) and sign up for Hubert's struggling ball club, yes? Since as we all know there ain't enny Senators outfit no longer which he could moil & toil for.

"There is really no such thing as bad weather, only different kinds of good weather." -Lord Avebury Well, but of course! You need have weather variables in a potential SC2. If for no other reason than it is THE most commonly apprehended phenomenon. We ALWAYS talk about it (but can't personally do much about it, etc). We walk around to & fro among it. We stick a wetted finger amid it. We spit in-to or at it. We stare at it a lot and... Pascal-like, wonder and wonder. So. Weather zones akin to what Minotaur has suggested are a right fine idea. Rather than hex-borders though, I would rather see the entire hex shaded. Rain = very light, unobtrusive blue Mud = very light brown Snow = very light white Fog = very light grey With penalties for movement, combat, supply and spotting. **That ice-shellacking on the East Coast of USA of late?... ah, just another dire variation of what is actually... good weather! (... ie, if you are experiencing ANY weather, it means you are spryly alive... and kicking!) :cool:

Yeah, this is one thing that was great fun to fool around with... adding or modifying rules to fit the kind of gaming experience you actually wanted to have. Seems like the game-makers sometimes get CLOSE to what you really want, but... not... quite. Another thing I like to do is add unit counters from other games to a board-game that has a fairly realistic map-layout, such as Axis & Allies Europe, or Pacific. I took some mechanized counters from PanzerBlitz and some naval-air counters & individual ship counters from World in Flames and some other assorted counters from Advanced Third Reich and... blended them in with the cool pieces that you get with A&A Europe (... love that AA-88 artillery and the Panther armor unit). It helps if you have saved all your old board-games as I have (... couldn't ever just pitch them out). The rules I re-wrote easily accomodate these new units and after a test-game, I find that everything fits together surprisingly well... it allows you to have the exact complexity that you prefer and you can actually play the game in less than 2 years!

Playing against the AI when it has +2 experience level is unrealistic and gives the impression that the computer is cheating... losing 5-6 strength points on a Panzer unit when it attacks an unfortified corps is a truly mystifying result. :eek: One thing that I do (... IF keeping the +2 level)is use the editor and give all of the starting German units +1 on experience (... in addition to other equalizing changes to each side's OOB, too numerous to mention) level. This will allow you to carefully build up the experience of the ORIGINAL German units in the various campaigns from France to Norway to Yugoslavia, etc. Then, you will at least be on equal terms with the French and Russian defenders, which is actually akin to playing at +0. Of course, any new units that you buy will have to be carefully placed and nurtured, else you will sooner than later pay a heavy price. But, this hardly helps the poor Italians... well, perhaps that is actually more faithful to historical reality... example: their numerous but haphazardly-commanded navy will be hard pressed to inflict much damage on the RN. I would like to see the experience levels changed... instead of +2, make it +1 and 1/2. An easier balancing solution would be to allow the gamer to alter ANY country (... for the '39 scenario), even if not at war. :cool: [ February 18, 2003, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

Great idea Les :cool: Let's get EVERYBODY hooked on these games... that way, the resulting catharsis will eliminate bristle & bravado and BS all around the town! I recently gave a whole stack of computer games to a nephew and he is really thrilled... he innocently asked for my old board-game of War at Sea and... I just COULDN'T part with it, damn, why on earth would I still be attached to that... I told him he could borrow it but ... maybe I'd leave it to him in my Will... LOL! Heuristic... as for my house, well, it's actually haunted and I had the devil's own time just getting him to put aside youthful superstitions and... adventure on in... :eek:

Blue helmets, Black heli-cops, Scarlet letters burned on an incubus breast, And god-favored gunslingers too! Riding-riding... through a hot purple haze, hey! I wonder-wonder who? Wouldst distribute: foodstuffs, medicine, Refuge... for all the rest Of the have-not fools, who Stuff emaciated faces! with locusts & dust On the very best of days...

Interesting and informative post... I would agree with your assessment and would therefore favor the idea of having a ONE-TIME VARIANT for the first winter effect. This could be random (... but, a HIGH chance of occuring; and, more likely in historically wintry months... or not, after all weather is extremely variable) and would create all kinds of mayhem for the Germans, in terms of lost organization & supply, and perhaps certain penalties on attack and defense. Maybe even have some of the HQs randomly reduced, say from 7 to 4, which would cause even more problems. :eek: Otherwise, the ice & snow & sleet & mud & rain might be iconically portrayed ON THE MAP (... loved the way some games would indicate seasonal changes with NON-INTRUSIVE and appropriate shading & cross-hatching) so that the weather would affect ALL arrayed forces. Also, good point about the partisans... I would like to see them appear ANYWHERE. When you KNOW that they will ONLY erupt in the swamp areas, then you can easily anticipate and neutralize them. How about -- they would appear LESS OFTEN, but MORE RANDOMLY throughout all of occupied Russia?

Shaka & JJ: You seem to be forgetting that the results of placing Diplomatic Points (DPPs) would mostly depend on a RANDOM factor. For example, Axis may put 1 more DPP into Spain on any particular turn, BUT... this would merely increase the likelihood that Spain might move a little further along the DPP-Track towards the Axis (... the further along the greater the tangible gains). So. Spring of '41 Germany spends 2 DPPs to try and influence Franco's Spain. Anticipating, Britain places 1 DPP. Instead of, say, a 5% chance that Spain will agree to MORE political assistance (... these variants could be hidden or clearly stated, no matter) by granting economic aid, or actual lent-forces of Armor, etc, NOW there is a 7% or 12%, or 16% chance, etc. Depending on how much is spent, these DPPs will only SLIGHTLY increase the chances of overt assistance, they will NOT drastically change the historical flow of the game. This way, you have more Variant possiblities. And, the assistance provided may be anything from Intelligence (... say, reducing FOW in some areas) to shipments of material resources (... as Rumania providing Oil even before they enter the Axis side). Now, this may be just another factor that would help Germany & Italy become TOO STONG early in the war, since the Allies cannot realistically afford to spend so many DPPs, given that they are hard-pressed to even muster sufficient military units or research. But, if the DPPs were PRECISELY expensive enough, the dipomatic efforts by the Axis would surely hinder their own future operations in the field (... could afford fewer units), and/or ability to research new technology. It is this random element that would keep the game essentially historical, BUT would provide even more variability so that each game would be slightly different. Too, receiving some favorable diplomatic result would THEN change that side's strategy. For example, IF the Axis suddenly received some economic MPPs from Greece, the Allies would then have to decide whether it was advisable to alter their entire Med strategy. Apply more diplomatic pressure? Blockade Athens? Even, invade before the Axis? The more random variants in any one game, the more possible strands in the web, yes? Some have decided that this would be too intrusive, and would create bothersome micro-management... in reality, how long would it take to decide IF or WHEN or WHERE you wish to exert diplomatic influence? Well, about the same amount of time it takes to decide whether to invest in research... which is nearly neglible. Therefore, I absolutely favor some additional diplomatic gamesmanship in SC2. :cool:

Shaka & JJ: You seem to be forgetting that the results of placing Diplomatic Points (DPPs) would mostly depend on a RANDOM factor. For example, Axis may put 1 more DPP into Spain on any particular turn, BUT... this would merely increase the likelihood that Spain might move a little further along the DPP-Track towards the Axis (... the further along the greater the tangible gains). So. Spring of '41 Germany spends 2 DPPs to try and influence Franco's Spain. Anticipating, Britain places 1 DPP. Instead of, say, a 5% chance that Spain will agree to MORE political assistance (... these variants could be hidden or clearly stated, no matter) by granting economic aid, or actual lent-forces of Armor, etc, NOW there is a 7% or 12%, or 16% chance, etc. Depending on how much is spent, these DPPs will only SLIGHTLY increase the chances of overt assistance, they will NOT drastically change the historical flow of the game. This way, you have more Variant possiblities. And, the assistance provided may be anything from Intelligence (... say, reducing FOW in some areas) to shipments of material resources (... as Rumania providing Oil even before they enter the Axis side). Now, this may be just another factor that would help Germany & Italy become TOO STONG early in the war, since the Allies cannot realistically afford to spend so many DPPs, given that they are hard-pressed to even muster sufficient military units or research. But, if the DPPs were PRECISELY expensive enough, the dipomatic efforts by the Axis would surely hinder their own future operations in the field (... could afford fewer units), and/or ability to research new technology. It is this random element that would keep the game essentially historical, BUT would provide even more variability so that each game would be slightly different. Too, receiving some favorable diplomatic result would THEN change that side's strategy. For example, IF the Axis suddenly received some economic MPPs from Greece, the Allies would then have to decide whether it was advisable to alter their entire Med strategy. Apply more diplomatic pressure? Blockade Athens? Even, invade before the Axis? The more random variants in any one game, the more possible strands in the web, yes? Some have decided that this would be too intrusive, and would create bothersome micro-management... in reality, how long would it take to decide IF or WHEN or WHERE you wish to exert diplomatic influence? Well, about the same amount of time it takes to decide whether to invest in research... which is nearly neglible. Therefore, I absolutely favor some additional diplomatic gamesmanship in SC2. :cool:

Those were the days! JJ, O holy Luis Aparico, those were the glory-days... Once upon a 60s time, I was sittin' in a bar in Coos Bay, Ore-egon, it was a Tuesday nite I do believe and not much in the way of high-roller delight, and anyway, This guy sez - sittin' right next to me listening to my braggart routine, he says -- I bet! you can't name the en-tire startin' lineup, and best 3 pitchers too! Of the Dee-troit Tigers... oh no! NOT this year... 1957! Well... who used to collect bicylce-spoke ball-cards when e' was the barefoot, ball playing youth? and so... Listen up! brother Tom, the terrible Doubter... Frank House... "Earl of Snohomish" Torgeson scrapin' the dirt out around first... Cool Cat Kuenn... and Ol' "Paw-Paw" Maxwell swattin' butterflies out in the pasture in left... etc, etc, NOT to omit Paul Foytack! smokin' them pennant pretenders with that fast gas... and on & on and sure enough, I got 'em all... the guy wudn't believe, so he got out the book... yep, yep, you got 'em all alright! One free beer comin' right up! :cool: Sure I was proud as punch and sittin' high & fancy alright, but... it wasn't me went home with the uptown babe that night... no, no, it was... he... :confused: ... too bad, but that's the Saloon ways of West Coast life... saw that same Duke-of-Earl dude a coupla months later, out at the bonfire by tha ocean... O so sorrowful was he, yep, was, and complainin' up a deluge -- O woe-to-me... I got this a-ffliction cast upon me... well, having been around and downtown too, I guessed what it was, and, see that's the nature of classic Tragedy, sure, you just can't esscape yer Fate, nosiree, and it ken be a mighty long fall... And so, I never did tell him -- just got up and wandered off and fetched another stick for the ocean-side fire... but... I gotta come clean, see, I MISSED the starting third-sacker for that Tiger club... shoulda been Bertoia... I'd said Montoya... One free beer, one back-packer cat sad as a little lost forest deer... hey, that's Life! how it goes in Coos Bay Ore-egon an a slow mo Tuesday night... when the lights are lurid low and there ain't many... cheers?

Great story... the thing is, in this Warhol Era of Erstwhile Ersatz Delights, he would ALSO hit 37 homeruns! No matter he is over 70! :cool: Those old guys were wiry & tough and desperate for vittles & rent money, you bet, an Old-Timer would merely reach out across the plate, one-handed and with this little FLICK FLICK - smack that pill over the opposite field fence! Hey, even you and I could play now and hit .239 with 19 cracker-jacks and we'd be hailed as Conquering Heroes! Then, when the Economy goes on the fritz (... or then the owners forget their outlandish grand-standing and decide for fiscal responsibility), we could join our down-trodden Union brothers and claim that the owners are... in COLLUSION! Refusing to pay us 10 Million bucks - or MORE! for our deathless contribution! After our one big breakout season! So. What to do? Sue! Sue the spats right off of them Yankee Capitalists! Sure, we would march to & fro in our Seville Row clothes and DEMAND that the miminum-wage ticket-takers and parking-lot sweeper-uppers JOIN! our Mother Jones Crusade! AH, what a wonderful world... moderne Baseball as only these Aquarian Avatars could play it! and indeed -- Achilles and Hector would arise singing mythic Hosannahs! from out of the blood soaked dust...