Desert Dave

Pzgndr is already digesting, fine. I haven't yet gotten the fork to my mouth. And we are eating alphabet soup! :eek: Actually, there are going to be many nice surprises in terms of how you can "model" the entire Economic War. Hubert has been doing his deep calculations, so be prepared for... astonishment # 109!

Very true that adding "minor ports" WILL change the aggregate MPP values for each particular country. So. You carefully (... and, with many personal beta testings) adjust the other resources. For instance - all ports are now edited to be ZERO? Well, in Britain's case, that is quite a few ports. Therefore, you will need to boost production in some other way. Many, MANY ways to do this. And once everyone gets their avid hands on the amazing new! Editor Then they can "play around" with it... to elated war-gamer heart's content. One way would be to add in another city. Or, another Mine Icon. (... no doubt, you will consult WW2-era topographic maps to insure that the Mine is in an area where it should indeed be) ADJUSTING the over-all Economic numbers to fit the new schematic. There is going to be NO END to the possible variations. This is good. VERY good. :cool: WHO! Will make a scenario that might rival even the X-trmely HONED "default" version? Time will tell.

A couple of these would be nice... Spaced here and there in between the burned out hulks of Pz IVs and the scattered remains of wind-blown desert redoubts, once supposed by mortals to be... impregnable... but, now, mostly wood and steel bits & pieces sticking up forlornly out of momently growing sand dunes... which stretch far, far into the humidly gritty distance.

The map as currently constituted (... meaning: it is likely to remain as is, with a small chance that some geographic features and/or resource icons will be added or subtracted in the final edition) Does have Tripoli as a city, with a port. It does have Tobruk, but it is a fortress tile much like Gibraltar. There IS also a port at Tobruk. Now, having said that, you all do realize that you can use the EDITOR... that really truly amazing! Hubert-gifted editor? To put any port in there that you want. Bengazi? You just can't live any longer without Bengazi? Put it in there! Casablanca? You can't live a mighty fine life, unless you can go out of a cool desert evening, with the palm trees rustle-swaying to an ocean melody, And have a tall refreshing glass of iced mint So-Long tea, at Rick's Place? Well then, build that infamous desert road-house, and they will come. You'll have to hire more bouncers, so many will come. It's merely a matter of... flick-click and yer done. :cool:

Got that part figured SM, since she has her beloved "Help me Rhonda" Honda, which I am hardly allowed to look at askance, let alone drive to the grocery store in, but... yeah, I have been keeping an eye out for one of those fabulous old "muscle cars"... out here in the desert, there are still a few old 50s & 60s gems to be found that aren't all rusted to shreds!

Again, and to elaborate a bit more... I sure wouldn't mind seeing a "generic" HQ. For Naval, it would be that combined Naval Station and HQ. For Air, it could be a sort of... "super Airport control HQ" which could be placed in whichever area is MOST in need of bolstering. Just as with the potential Naval HQ. And both or either could be "named" as each Player pleases. At purchase, it would merely be called... "Naval HQ" or "Air HQ." (... and naval station/HQ could also direct naval bomber activities and spotting!) IF you were to only allow ONE EACH maximum per Major Power (... and rated according to each country's historic abilities and achievements) of these, then the decision, the gamer's CHOICE would have to be made... where O where should it go? Now, this "generic HQ"... one each for land and sea, would likely have to be more expensive. So that the Player would be hesitant to just throw one out there somewhere, say, on one of the Coasts, or deep in the red heart of Russia, since it WOULD be unique and expensive. Well, nice thoughts on a lazy Thursday afternoon, when the lawn needs mowing again! Hubert will as per usual have final say on this, but... I do join those who favor further control for SOME of the sea or air forces. :cool:

Yep, but... ack and alas, It is merely a VERY fond memory by now. I'd give my right OR left index finger if I could have that silver-blue, 2dr HT, American Mag wheel'd 389 cid, tri-carb'd beauty machine back again! What happened was, the wife decided she didn't like to drive it, it was, oh, TOO "clunky" (... due to the heavy duty clutch and suspension, you know...) and as it was our ONLY mode of transportation just then, I had to sell 'er off and we got this little "lawn-mower thing"... a Karmann Ghia convertible, which she could race around Town in and let her long hair blow in the summer wind. Like I say... ack and alas. :confused:

Good points all around, and I can tell you this much... this idea has been, at least, considered. Perhaps pzgndr can Para-jump in here, howling out his blood-curdling Geronimo! yowl... as he has talked of just such a non-port retreat for quite some time now. :cool:

Well ev, I have read over your rationales and closely & capably argued first post. I would say this: we do not have stacking in this game, which is VERY good for a lot of reasons, not least of which is that is very easy to keep track of all your units. Since we don't have stacking, my main concern would be that additional movement penalties, or even ZOCs... would "clog up the passing lanes." And there we all are! revving our souped-up hot-rod sports cars! (... mine is a '65 GTO 389 w/tri-carbs) :cool: Meaning... it might be best to avoid situations where you are trying to break through a small opening in the lines, BUT you have just too many units... WHICH CANNOT STACK... trying to squeeze through. Picture the possible complications when trying to execute a breakthrough in France... other than the signs that point both ways, I mean. Sure, you COULD plan so very exquisitely and with such incredible finesse ... that your units are all exactly lined up in order of action points... but, that might be too obtrusive on game playing time? And could enough of them get through to make consequent difference in the blitz & surround? Hubert will have to provide the final explanations on this one... I gotta go sweep out the store room where ALL those almost countless new CD cases are kept.

First, there is only ONE game designer: Hubert Cater. :cool: Pzgndr and I merely handle a few chores around the Work Shop when asked to do so. My own handle usually has a broom attached to the end of it. And occasionally, we'll chip in with a suggestion or two, but really, these are not much more likely to be implemented than one of yours might be. Next, Engineers are posited as "construction engineers" which can only build fortifications... over a set period of time, which can be edited. Whether they will be allowed to do anything else, well, that's up to Hubert. __________________ Interesting to consider, however: for all those who have been clamoring for elite units? I suppose you could edit this one and make it an extra potent, multi-valuable... SS, or Army Rangers, or Guards Unit or Brit Commandos. Which could also build fortifications in their spare time, being that they are super sorts of men. Or, you could "edit out" any fortification building ability... and one surefire way would be to set the delay for construction at maximum build time requirement of... 12 months. This would likely preclude use, since few Players would want their "elite unit" out of action for that long. [ May 10, 2004, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

Steen Ammentorp is to be congratulated for this VERY helpful contribution... as is Liam for finding and displaying the link. Since he is a Librarian with many useful contacts, it is likely that his sources of "General" information would be comprehensive and faithful. He doesn't even attempt to provide "subjective" opinions on the Generals and their traits or combat abilitites, which is a relief. One man's "great" tactical or grand-strategical genius, is very often the next man's... strutting & spluttering martinet, outfit in drab green mufti, or feld-grau trousers quite knifely creased. Also good to know that he will constantly be updating his data files. No doubt this would be VERY valuable for any immediate or eventually interested WW2 game designer. :cool:

Well, the tiles are 1X and not 3X. Speculation about "abstract Atlantic" doesn't necessarily CHANGE any specific and tile-by-tile game dynamics, other than... on a sort of imaginary scale. In general, I would say this... so long as you are having a great deal of FUN, and fairly closely replicating the difficulties that Britain had in fending off the U-boot menace, then the game succeeds in providing a pretty doggone good Battle of the Atlantic. After all, as pzgndr has mentioned, this IS an incidental part of the over-all game, and not to be too finely parsed.

Good point SeaMonkey. I would say this: just how easy was it for ANY sea-going WW2 Air unit to spot a very, very tiny fleet or sub out in the Atlantic? The old idea of having an Air Fleet or Strat Bomber be able to see for 100s & 1000s of miles around is liable to be changed somewhat. Perhaps... maybe... the new! naval bomber capabilities could partly, or even MOSTLY solve this dilemma? Some aspects of FoW are not decided yet, and I'm sure that Hubert will reveal his decisions where and when appropriate. Besides, and again, you CAN edit just about anything a'tall, to include spotting ranges. :cool:

In that SC Bible, that CvM hath so wryly provided, I do remember reading something... hmmmm, something... about "Thou shalt not cast aspersions on yer fellow war gaming enthusiasts, in the likely event that the mote in yer eye is actually the size of a boulder." Besides, God does not dally in the very, very, VERY tiny doings of the Human, He wishes to allow us FREE WILL so that we might MUCK UP all and everything as we please!

Yep, we sure can. IF... the Player is not satisfied with the designer provided... "abstracted size" of the Atlantic, ALL they have to do is go into the Editor and REDUCE the APs for each naval vessel. NOW you have a larger Atlantic! The EXACT size that you think it should be. (... or even, make another Map altogether!) EVERYTHING extent, and all that is created, is... an abstraction. IF... the Player wants to insure that there are extended naval battles, all he needs do is go into the Editor and reduce ALL of the combat target values, so that each of the occasions for combat will be... less consequent and less bloody. Also, you can reduce the COST for the Subs and the Cruiser-Destroyer groups, so that there WILL be much more action in that deep and ever unforgiving Atlantic. ***As for the "spotting"... you don't want so VERY much "invisibility" that you will spend IMMENSE amounts of time searching and searching and searching every single tile for that elusive Sub or ASW unit. This is already and necessarily a game of "abstraction" and it is merely for the individual Player's IMAGINATION to fill in all the tiny details of sub-to-ship encounters, yes? Thank God, once again! For that most amazing Editor!... so that EACH WW2 GS Player CAN "tweak" the naval game, or the Air game, or the Land game or the Research game, or the Diplomatic game or the Industrial Production game... to suit his very personal requirements. :cool: One thing that will be VERY interesting... when you set up a TCP/IP or PBEM game... DECIDING on which of the 100s & 100s of variations/scenarios to use? That alone might engender endless (.. but, merry!) debates raging from... Amsterdam to Baltimore to old Idaho! And, why ever not, each Player will surely muse... use MY very own variation? Which I think, ah, ahem, to be the very BEST re-creation that there is or EVER could be... other than the DEFAULT game, Which will be so finely honed and sharp edged that you could cut Atoms... quite exactly in half with it... but of course!

Who can charm the blue-jays Down out of the Spring-time trees? Hubert can. :cool: Who can handle the Media, The war-gaming Media... with An elegant ease? Well, who else? Who can create, would you suppose The lastest & greatest... TCP/IP? And! Stick a timer in there, So it won't take Like... forever, Eh, Hoser? To knock... stalking Old Foe To his knees? Need I... even, repeat it?

Well, good thing, because you shall indeed have them! :cool: I do recall that little WW2 story about German sky-assaulters dropping "potato mashers" down through the vents of those fortifications in Belgium... what was the name? Ebba Eban or some fool thing. As a general approach to this whole schematic of having "wrong sized" or "irrelevant" combat units, I would say this: Para are NOT Armies. They are not even Corps. They are a specialty unit that performs a special function and mission. It simply does NOT MATTER how you OOB them or how you count the rapt Student noses. This is ALL a magical mystery tour, in which, whether you are related to Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, or attached to some billowing nylon as it drops to a sometimes receptive Earth, you are... IMMERSED in a WW2 atmosphere. :cool: It IS... a a war game re-enactment, though not PERFECTLY so because it never could be. No matter if you studied history books from now until Alpha clashed with Omega. Paratroops and Engineers and anything else YOU would like to stick in there... fits EXACTLY and really truly "romantically" ... into this GS WW2 game.

And for all the old Grogs, There is the Church of... AAWRP. (... Association of Aimlessly Wandering Retired People) Where the whole church is made of Styrofoam In the event of ooops, the inevitable Spills and falls, And the Altar is kept quite brightly lighted, And the icons in niches are old stuffed dolls, And kneeling is not a matter of if, but when, But... not really required at all, Since you’d need far too many ushers, So the crowd could unstiffen... upright again! And the litany is only a very few words Croaked out, over and over and over: "Accept my humble donations And my closely approximate prayer, But taketh not O Lord my reading glasses, my Hearing aid, or... my favorite TV easy-chair." And the communion consists of: Viagra Concealed in marshmallows, and for a chaser, It’s Milk of Magnesia Supped from a shallow Dixie Cup, And in the end, When the morning sun becomes a midnight moon, The Grogs will mighty! arise as one, Hup, 2, 3, hup - Up! And sing out appropriate praises: "Please O Hubert give us SC2 ... and soon! We’ve been waiting since forever, or so It seems to us, And don’t argue you - young guns! Yer elders know a thing or two! We ALL need... a little, a LOT more! Armchair war-gaming fun! Ummm, and... oh yeah... Amen. [ May 05, 2004, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

An awful lot of good points here, and that's not even the half of it. There is the difficulty of how and when the AI selects a route for retreat? How much more TIME consuming for the ACTIVE player to set up his retreat orders for next turn? How long will you want to wait while the opponent "fusses" over his retreat orders? And what should the "standard criterium" for the AI be? Retreat from cities and forts, yes or no? Ever? Into mountains? Across rivers? What of air superiority? Or, armor advantage? How about HQ in range, or not? What of blocked retreats, and which is the alternative route that is fairest and most easily managed? The list is long. No doubt everyone can think of 20 others for each one that I have stated. Well,as Bill has said, it's... a definite maybe. Which means, of ALL the various components that must, and WILL fit together seamlessly, this one is one of the most problematic. Personally, I very much like the "chess-like" simplicity of SC the Original. You don't have "retreats" in a game that has lasted since Middle Ages or forever, as Chess, true? Why here? Just because other games have done it that way? And sure, I agree, if you have ANY sort of battle or skirmish, regardless of the kinds of implements of War, the losing side will often retreat. But there is something to be admired in REQUIRING the "master strategist" to set up his forces beforehand, with each game-piece fulfilling a particular function. For instance: there are units that are static, and assault the defensive position... usually those with a lot of "firepower" so that the defending unit is heavily damaged (... after, a lesser unit or 2, or the Strat Bomber has weakened the fortification or entrenchment) and THEN... the "blitzing units" will take advantage of the ensuing break-through. (... how frustrating when you have done all you can and yet... that defending unit stands there and laughs and defies you with a strength of...one. But that is also part of the "charm.") IF a unit has "geared up" and mustered a cache of supplies and prepared for an all-out assault, why should they then get to move also? And why, necessarily, should a defensive unit HAVE TO retreat? This is VERY large scale gaming. It might be assumed that the "rear guard" is established by a competent HQ (... at this scale, nothing prevents the imagination from "moving" that rear guard into place) by a near-by battalion or even a company, whose sole function is to... delay the advance. Anyway, I really like the different and unique challenge of trying to "set-up" your offensive units so to maximize a possible break-through. :cool: That is what we have now. Beta testing will determine if any sort of retreat option will work... "seamlessly," and really, either will be fine by me, but As said... there are many, MANY potential problems with putting in retreats, and they just may not finally be worth the toil & trouble. Yes? No?

Hard to argue with this, and especially since Roger Waters ... IMHO, one of the two or three "musical geniuses" of the last 45 years (... along with Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys, for one) said it. Sure, any audience, at any time - as with Roman crowds in the early A.D. Coliseum, CAN become so jaded that the product presented, EVEN IF novel and subtle and crafted by a determined Artisan-Artist, might be "lost in the ersatz shuffle." OTOH, something that is "true" and the result of an honest effort to remain faithful to basic principals and understandings of the game genre in question, WILL succeed no matter any momentary market-share confusion. This would surely apply, no doubt, in the case of WW2 GS games. No-one was more disappointed than I at the X-tremely paltry efforts in the case of Third Reich, and Hearts of Iron, and even, a seemingly simple challenge like computerized Axis & Allies. Some may scoff at that last entry, but I will suggest... IF it had had some very rudimentary "editing" capabilities, many players (... perhaps, out of desperation that nothing else was forthcoming UNTIL Hubert had his "furious inspiration," and created SC, the Original. ) might have made their own "roughly workable" game to play around with. Well, forget all those pretenders, the designers - well intending or not, we'll never know, tried and quite famously failed. I have no doubt whatsoever that SC2-Blitzkrieg will finally be that WW2 GS game that will finally break through and establish a long standing worth. And not merely to the old or new "grogs" who can edit this game into some VERY unique and specifically satisfying paradigms... but also due to the "default" game which will allow even relative beginners... to have a lot of old fashioned fun. :cool:

Sorry for the delay in answering this, and it's been a couple weeks I realize, but I can now tell you that the answer is... YES. (... I rarely forget questions, and in fact write most of them down in a notebook so that I won't forget them, but sometimes I am not always clear on the answer and will wait until I am "pretty doggone certain," etc ) Hubert IS planning some additional cost for when the landing unit assaults a "built fortification" that is empty at the time of the invasion. Makes sense to me as well, given that a "coastal fortification" would necessarily include a small, permanent crew manning the big & small defensive guns aimed out to Sea. Not to mention the beach obstacles that would be part of the fortifications... as was the case with Fortress Europa, which Rommel himself inspected and somewhat improved upon. _______________________ In a related area... and this question was asked sometime by somebody, can't remember who or when, but... invasion assaults into MOUNTAIN tiles WILL also be more costly to the invader. Although every "mountain tile" does not imply that the difficult mountainous terrain extends right down to the beach, the tile as a WHOLE would offer better vantage point in terms of spotting, and over-all defensive positioning than a "clear invasion tile" would.

Necessity is the Mother of Invention. Or, Put another way: Build it, and they will come. If you were surfing around on the vast Net waters, and noticed that there were NO WW2 GS games worth dry spit in a hurricane, then YOU... or one another of the fierce loyalists on this very board, might gather the necessary expertise, and make it yourself. I could easily see that happening. But, I fully agree about the extremely blithe & blase approach that many Computer Gaming Companies take. For example, when I first received the computer Third Reich as a gift, I tried playing it and there were some apparent problems. At that time, I was NOT Internet savvy, and in fact, was not even signed on. I went to the guy who sold it to my son, and asked: "Look, this game is junk. Are there any patches that will make it work properly? After all, my son forked over 50 bucks for this piece of s**t!" He said, trying to be helpful: "I will download the patch and give you the hard disc so you can copy it into your game files." Somehow, he never got that simple chore accomplished, even though I checked back 2 or 3 times. I vowed then to never buy another game from them. And, haven't. One thing... I suspect this is the reason that some Companies do not put their games onto the retail shelves. If the buyer MUST purchase over the Net, then he will be well aware of Company product support, and any new patches. IF you do go retail, make damn sure the product is finished... what's so difficult? Put it out when AND ONLY WHEN it's done.

JPW, Perhaps, It will be something... like this: You are still mostly innocent And have not noticed, or been told The World is essentially a tooth & claw Kind of place. You have blown out all 3 or 4 Or more, (... depending on how long you can Stay happily sane and... remain A game-loving kid) Of those fire-crackling! candles. The confetti is draped all over you, and The Clown-blown balloons have floated Through the roof! :eek: You have torn through that brightly animated Birthday paper, and finally gotten down To the... surprise! And... what a... grand surprise! Oh, you had... hoped. You had wheedled and talked it up for weeks Without end, and finally... perfectly prayed. Now, THERE IT IS! :cool: You aren't surprised, and, curiously, you are. That's how it will be. With this new SC2-Blitzkrieg! editor. Wait and see! And all your small party-friends will look over Your trembling shoulder, And wonder? What IS he so excited about? Lookit that! He can hardly stand still. We could all understand it, If it had been a baseball mitt, Or a 5-gig lap-top with wireless built in! But... this? LOL! :confused:

LOL! PC gaming ain't dying. Not even close. What's been moribund is the modern game designer's imagination. I don't mean imagination like... more cotton candy on a stick, at the County Fair. I mean imagination like... giving us a Ferris Wheel that works like a laughing Giant's dangling charm. You don't always need to re-invent the wheel. Ferris Wheel has been around a long, long time, and as far as I can see, people still flock to buy tickets to ride. Now, Too many, IMHO, have been so concerned to make the NEXT different kind of amusement, they have sometimes forgotten to perfect the very great thing they started with. There are more computers than ever, in almost geometric proportion. Six or 7 years ago, I didn't even have one. Now I have two, one each for me and my wife. OK. MORE computers than ever... it's like color TVs used to be. MORE interest than ever... in gaming. People have LOVED games since they first started rolling out knuckle bones back in the cave days. What does this tell you? Create something GOOD, and FUN, and you will have to beat them off with a slicked hickory stick. Look what happened when Sid Meier's Civilization came out. It WILL happen again, where some game designer WILL be in the right place, doing the right game design thing. My poor opinion? SC2-Blitzkrieg ... for one, and in its niche, will be THE great WW2 GS game. The gamer's market is wide, WIDE open. Anybody out there got moxie and grit & spit and a great game idea? Get cracking! Round up all the necessary suspects. You might be the next Sid Meier or... Hubert Cater. :cool:

xwormwood knows what he is talking about, this is a great read, And beyond that, one of the best pictorials I have EVER seen, well, since I first was eerily astonished by... The Wind in the Willows! I do believe we are receiving an advance preview of the future... of "serialized Internet story-board fiction"... though, an adept and insightful "fact-fiction," is more like it. Gives one pause... just what might be done with a this avant garde Pop art form? Anyhow, you two guys are nothing short of amazing! BTW, Archibald, wherever did you find those original old Propoganda posters... I NEED that link! Seriously. :cool: