Desert Dave

LOL! No, grace did not stop the small but willfully determined David from slaying that imposing biblical Giant... however, Grace might refine over time. Each human may achieve, earn, learn, apprehend and then! Display a saving grace that takes the shape Of... kind and careful consideration. :cool: ____________________ I understand what you say about your family... my Dad fought on most of those jungled and volcanic rock islands in the east and south Pacific. Long ago, I remember (... quite accidentally, of course!) discovering two historical things that he had quite deliberately hidden away... out of plain sight: 1) A tattered and blood-flecked Japanese rising sun flag... when I first unfolded it and held it softly in my callow hands... I had this oh, sort of second sight, all about the tremendous sacrifice that those in the WW2 generation made... mostly for... us, the next and future generations. 2) A box full of medals, there sure were a lot of them, BUT... he NEVER wore any, NOT EVEN to specific or special "parade occasions." It was one of, if not THE best instruction I have ever received... no need, no, not EVER a need to glory in or blithely glamorize a declared and necessary war. Well, since he had been aboard a troop ship waiting for orders to gut-it-up and land on the Japanese mainland, I am VERY glad he didn't have to do that, else I might not even be here. My son might not even be here. Some, perhaps even one or two on this forum board might say, hooray to that! LOL! No, I AM very glad that he didn't have to invade Japan. It is a luxury, perhaps even a conceited indulgence for me to NOW "second-guess" those who fought in, or made terrible tough decisions about... WW2. I TRY not to seek back and question this or that, but, maybe it is like KH has suggested... I am still searching, searching for a better, more lasting kind of... David-Goliath... grace. Selah...

Good that we can discuss this topic without any perjorative or otherwise personally insulting labels, yes? It is the mark of grace, and civilized manner. Anyway, just HOW would the Japanese have supported a million man army without any militarily specific war supplies? They would somehow leech them out of the Chinese soil? And so, the Chinese weren't already gaining the upper hand, pushing the Japanese back to the China Sea coast? How do you know? Told in a billowing whisper... on a divine wind? You are making "after-the-fact" assumptions. It would? Through the American blockade? As the Soviets wouldn't do, 17 years later in Cuba? Why then and not later? I am fair satisfied that the Soviets, as recent DOCUMENTS have revealed, were much more fearful and ignorantly mistrustful of the USA than heretofore disclosed, yes? **(... whether due to the dropped... "Death, Destroyer of Worlds," we don't know... some have supposed that all this was some kind of Show... if so, that would be, now until Doomsday... simply unforgivable... which brings to mind, why not a "demonstration" on uninhabited land?) I do believe that was in the event that the Allies invaded their home country. I am not convinced that all those kamikazes and other assorted suicidal pacts would have been ancestor honored. Why do you believe they would have been? And, more importantly, and given the Zen Buddhist nature of the majority of citizens, why would they have been even HALF as fanatical as you are apparently suggesting? My understanding is that, at a particular "breaking point" all of that mindless War hysteria & anxiety would have MOSTLY evaporated. Conclusion: I can't for the life of me see where my understanding is any LESS cogent than yours, pardon. It isn't merely or mostly LOGIC that I employ, as you likely full well know by now. It is also "intuition" or plain old "common sense," which, as we know, has little resemblance to Socratic-limited logic. You are assuming that it would ever get to that point, presuming a blockade. I do not assume that. All of that kind of "hindsight" seems to me to be justification and rationales. WE DON'T KNOW that the Japanese wouldn't have just given up the ghost at some point in the blockade. Therefore, I conclude that neither one of us KNOWS (... since, the syllogism goes: Socrates was a man; I am a man, therefore: I am Socrates LOL!... we KNOW that ain't remotely true!) just what would have happened. Upshot: I am merely stating my opinion. So are you. I aver: a blockade WOULD have worked. That is equally viable as you saying: A blockade would not have worked, no matter all your careful and considerable rhethorical skills. Meantime, we can EACH and BOTH enjoy the upcoming adventure known as... SC2!! :cool:

I will simply say that... there WAS another way. If you blockaded the island, where were all those civilians and demoralized military going to go? Up in tea-leaf-ceremony smoke? Even if you had to hold the blockade for a year, why be so impatient to annihilate other innocent humans? Why be in a rush, then or now, to run the blood plow through the killing fields? Sooner than later, the Japanese would have run out of some very basic items of existence. Who cares if they had to stay on the home islands... forever even? What cost to USA's Pacific Fleet and Marines? (... my Dad fought all the way across those Pacific islands like Guadalcanal and Tarawa and Iwo Jima, so I am NOT personally unaware of what frightening cost was involved, nosir, nosiree, not by a long shot... ) Well, IF the great and hungry mass of Japanese NON MILITARY folks had really wanted to end the blockade, they had the sheer numbers, true? They couldn't over-whelm the cadre of resistant soldiers? It's what I would do. May in fact have to one day actually do. I am aware of history repeating itself, at least. :eek: Why assume a history that couldn't possibly happen? It's equally as conceivable that the blockade WOULD have worked. For now, we have to deal with a historical fait d' accompli. President Truman made an extremely tough decision. It's not one I would have made, but, there you have it. Always! Better, IMHO, to spare the innocents. Japanese. Americans. Germans. ALL are part of the collective "web of life." No'one who are non-combatants has any instrinsic Worth that is somehow more or less valuable. Those who died in Hamburg and Dresden and Hiroshima and Nagasaki WERE NOT hands-on authors or instigators of ANY atrocities. Other than the usual situation, which exists all over the World to this day. ALLOWING belligerent and bellicose and chauvanistic and nationalistic and xenophobic leaders to have their almost-insane way... IE, the "good German" syndrome. Ridiculous? Yes, KH, I am, at times. So is everyone, so far as I can see. It ain't limited to merely me, no sir, nosiree... LOL!

LOL! Sure enough. As do: Parents, And priests & rabbis & mullahs and ministers, And nice or psychotic next-door neighbors, And the brothers and the sisters, And self-enclosed, self-supporting clans And groups and! Fanatics in peanut-shell littered grand-stands, Everywhere! LOL! EVERYTHING is deliberately, carefully culled out of the immense mass of information out there. EVERYBODY has preconceived notions about... well, just about everything, even In hallowed halls of Science! Why single out Professors? It's de rigueur to blame the wrack & woes On those who are... supposed To be... liberal? LOL! If the "facts" or... the gloves don't fit? You can't vote to convict! LOL! [ March 24, 2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

OTOH, a well-documented and aptly ascertained series of "facts" IS, or can be a compelling and convincing argument. I am NOT saying that ALL facts are equal. We DO need to make choices, let us pray, based on the BEST available evidence. I am NOT taking sides in this argument. In this matter, I don't know enough about ALL of the relevant facts to adequately say who is more right-speaking than another. Suffice it to say that atrocities were committed during WW2 by all sides (... for instance, the "terror" bombing of Hamburg and Dresden, or the dropping of A-bombs on Japan... has NO satisfactory explanation, other than possibly... a sheer revenge, IMHO, but, that is just me, no apology...), And also apparent, to me, that the Germans and Japanese were guilty (... to deliberately use an old-fashioned word) of MORE war-crimes than ANY of the Western Allies. To pretend, or imply otherwise is not in keeping with the "common understanding." Just wanted to clarify, so that I am not appearing to advocate a "blind acceptance" of any particular dogma, or statistical analysis, or version of ancient events. TIME is the greatest teacher of all, and ever will be. :cool: Sometimes, there are new discoveries, whether the area of study is History, or Anthropology or Physics or Psychology.

Skanvak, Your opinions are welcome and appreciated. We wouldn't want to EXCLUDE anyone... the MORE discussion, and even, outright dissent, then we as a "collected consciousness" might become less narrow-minded, and more enlightened. :cool: After all, there really AREN'T very many irreducible FACTS. Gravity seems to be one, but, who knows, maybe one fine Spring day we well find that the once taken for granted... gravity has... just up and went? :eek: Look at Mars for only one of a thousand countless examples. Just how long have we ignorantly been strolling along whistling a little rock-roll kick-heels tune, WITHOUT awareness that the "red planet" actually had water above and below surface? Was there "life" there? Maybe. Maybe not. In that way it resembles just about EVERY OTHER so-called "fact." So. Keep on keeping on with your comments and opinions... they are certainly no worse or less "learned" than anybody else's, as far as I can tell.

LOL! Ahem, I do believe, yes! it was!... YOU! Who has recently been importuning and haranguing Battlefront and Hubert to produce... MORE! War games, yes? Well, They sure won't be able to do that if they don't make lots & lots of to-the-sky-stacked jack, true? One way to absolutely LIMIT, unnecessarily, the audience is by making SC2 a "niche game" mostly for the grogs and militia-minded. Another way to put it... if SC2 is a resounding world-wide success, then likely we will actually see... Pacific SC and maybe even that Civil War game that you are so waxing hot about? A "parental sticker?" Nah, we only need them when it comes to Tipper Gore type campaigns against degenerate and unholy stomp-rock and roll around the floor-boards music... LOL!

Yer right JJ, This topic seems to have a (... half) life Of its own? :eek: Well, on we go, and Two by two like sinless animal twins embarked Aboard an old creaking Ark, I have an opinion on this delicate matter also. First, The brief dialectic. FOR: 1) If there is to be a Pacific SC somewheres down the long winding road, seems as though nuclear physics should be accounted for somehow. Whether the double-dose A-bombing was actually NECESSARY, no, I don't think it was, a blockade would have eventually and finally ended it, but that's another tempestuous topic. 2) Provided SC2 allows us to play into 1947 or so, then it seems likely that the atomic bomb would be a minor factor at some point, especially if the Allies are losing. AGAINST: 1) There are MANY other "what-ifs" AND many other weapons that are NOT included in SC. Why make an exception for the atomic R & D? **2) One important consideration for SC2 is... to make money. Given that a VERY LARGE percentage of humans DO NOT like to consider, let alone talk about nuclear device and devise, why arbitrarily include it? It seems just too controversial, in the way that Nazi insignia, or SS-troops are... interesting, even intriguing, but NOT critical to a game's success. Why alienate well over half (... my own poor anecdotal estimate, based on having lived a long time) of your potential audience? How many Mothers will actively prevent their kids from buying it due to the consciously threatening issue of... "nuclear bombings?" Besides, atomic weapons are TERROR weapons, plain and simple. There is no provision, previously, or AFAIK for SC2, for... public disugust or morale. What could be gained? As has been rightly pointed out, the most damage you could probably do is to ONE HEX. How is that going to change the balance of power? The essential way that it might is IF you had some sort of "terror bombing" where the civilians would suffer JUST ENOUGH to pressure their leaders to call a halt to the war. IMHO, the VERY SMALL effects of a VERY EXPENSIVE research project, does not justify including it in SC2. Why? So the player can feel as though he or she has Greek God-like power over the poor cringing earth-bound humans? From the "public relations" point of view, there is an extremely compelling reason NOT to put nuclear weapons into the next game. "Psychologically" I would also suggest that this would create, in each player's mind... ADMITTED or not, that the game is... un-secured and flimsy... liable to be "blown apart" by some rampaging Strangelove. :eek: FWIW, I would vote... NO. (... actually I am ambivalent, and HAVE researched nuclear power in Advanced 3rd Reich for example... BUT, it was done with a certain... eerie reluctance... sure! let's all be REAL and push our public or secret fears to the forefront for helpful examination... OK, fine, good idea... but NOT in a game that should be mostly for FUN...) [ March 24, 2004, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

Holy Jumping Cow! Moon, :eek: Three! whole posts in one sitting! Must've been one of those odd Early morning hours... when The shadows :eek: were closing in? Well, no matter, you have our faithful attention. SC2 announcement due in April? Next month? Only weeks! from now? Now, That is X-tremely exhilirating news! :cool:

Me too. Really good stuff. Now, I'll have to consult my old dog-ear'd copy of... Statistics Is, Gee Whiz, the Cat's Pajama's and see what's WW2 what. Although... a good war-game that captures the larger audience probably must also appeal to those who mostly, like footloose teens in the dream-machine... "just want to have fun." Tough business, deciding between and among mechanical accuracy and excitement-creating sleight of hand.

Well, let me see... OK. It's ol' Mike Curb Congregation, eh? Guess I am a back-beat too slow, although, When it comes to enthusing the crowd, I personally favor The Staples or The Edwin Hawkins Singers but... Nina Simone alone In a Prophet's old hut, With a finger-snap quick opened Then shut, all the while Allowing for the slow juju moan Of the slide-trombone, Now at's... pretty sensational! too. But, really, I like Jimmy Swaggert Tromping the bare floor boards, Bi-speaking out 4-time Spirit poetry - onto The razzle-dazzled heads Of sacred seekers Down in wicked heart Baton Rouge, Oh... yeah, now that's authentic... :cool: ____________________________ And besides, I hope SC sales are up. Way, way up. Then they'll snatch that hidden copyright for That great old board-game, War at Sea eh?

Ah so, good to see you active again CvM. :cool: Older and wiser, though, no doubt, some things Shalt never change, eh? Like your soon to be re-baptised thread: "Where is that Finnish HQ!" Well, Maybe the soon approaching SC2! will Include one, for the older you?

As The Lizard King might say: "We want the whole world and we want it... NOW" I wonder if Jim ever played war board games? His old man WAS a Navy Commander, Once stationed in Desert City . In fact, 3 blocks from where I once lived... hmmm, Was THAT the kid who used to ride his bike Around town, singing out loud scats of old William Blake poems? :eek: "Tyger Tyger burning bright, Up in the diamond-lucent sky, Out of sight!"

Nor do I. It's one of the truly great MYSTERIES Yet unsolved In the sacred Western World. Why not? ANY of those great old board-games? ALL of that apparent brain-power. ALL of the investment monies floating around Out there, and... NO-ONE?? :eek: Can re-turn to... the Classics? For inspiration? As we know, SC DOES indeed borrow a little here And a mite there (... how could you NOT? It's fairly limited just how far you might stray from basic WW2 GS geographies) But, It is also fresh and interesting and sound. It's ALMOST as though... some game-designers Are... AFRAID to center their Conquistadore Quest for Oro opus Dei Anywhere NEAR the old and golden Classics For fear... they'll be accused of mimicry. Or, As with the situation involving Avalon Hill ... the old games are tied In legalistic knots and/or hidden Away by selfish patent-holders, In the same way that wealthy patrons Will "hide" fine art, So that they ALONE can enjoy it. Too bad. But, surely there ARE some old board-games In particular, that might indeed Be translated to computer? Yeah, there are a few companies, one in particular... Eagle Games that is putting THEIR OWN board-games onto Computer, Such as Age of Imperialism presently. WHO! :cool: CAN... no excuses, in the Excellence-demanding rambo style... BUY WHATEVER rights there are, No matter how persistent you need be, To... Advanced 3rd Reich (... for example of only ONE among MANY)...AND Get that immaculate Classic ONTO computer screen... please! What's so hard? :confused: [ March 18, 2004, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

Yes it is, and my guess is that it will remain quite different from WiF. WiF is not so easily translated to the computer, given ALL the intricate interaction between units... how you might program a decent AI is a question that begs a Solomon kind of answer. And, ALL of those Aussie-devotees are demanding! that each and every stunning detail be included... LOL! :eek: Likely they will end up with a severely diminished RESEMBLANCE of WiF the board game... which I too have played and enjoyed, though... who in hell has time or inclination to set up all those 1000s of counters? Anyway, you are right to appreciate Shaka's economic analyses... he and pzgndr have probably examined that aspect of SC most closely, and with strong and finely considered suggestions for SC2. I wouldn't mind seeing some separate calculations, and unit restrictions, based on oil. However, best to keep in mind that this might lead to OVER EXAGGERATED emphasis on Ploesti (... and, possibly, due to current map schematics, Iraq) it is about all that the Germans could rely on, other than some small reserves in Austria which aren't even accounted for at this scale. Well, rather than anticipate a greatly REDUCED WiF... far better, I am thinking, to anticipate... an adroitly EXPANDED... SC2!! Hubert's SC1 has a sound and solid platform that merely needs be improved a bit, and enlarged upon here and there! For the best concepted and most re-playable WW2 GS game, my mad money is on... SC2. :cool: [ March 15, 2004, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

Very true. It's that EXPERIENCE (... along with high-rated and experienced HQ, AND long-range as well) that will tend to "break the game." **An interesting thing to try, especially if you playing Axis against the AI: DO NOT! Invest in ANY Industrial Technology. You MAY invest in anything else. That way, you may well get those super uber weapons BEFORE the Allies... BUT, They will cost you an arm and a leg and a bit of yer hair follicles too. This seems a pretty decent way to replicate the limited Axis Economy. Fewer units, of high quality that cost a lot. Meanwhile, the beserkers are swarming you! with all them low-rent Corps. And here, you can also challenge yourself... by giving Russia IT level 2 at start, AND anti-tank level one. Those Panzers will not be quite so murderous marauding.

It's very simple. We here in New Mexico, Where you have a sister-city, Are as one... with the great & faithful People of Spain.

Been over to Britain Playing... scratch golf with Goldfinger and Odd-Job Again, eh? :eek: Who's your backer? Daddy Warbucks? And let's see, the caddy Would be... the ever-faithful, (Though her hair be... turning gray) Ms MoneyPenny? JK, jjr ... JK, and actually, Good to see you back And active in yer OTHER great Passion... Competitive SC! Just wait until SC2 arrives! Then! And it's about time! We'll see some REAL Deal-em-in, Deal-em-out... medal play, eh? :cool:

Well, it isn't so much the unequal numbers of Air Fleets per contesting side, as it is... The unequal VALUE that is attached once you achieve tech advances. True that balanced and aptly combined attacks are far better than merely a narrowly go-for-broke focus, no matter how well gamed or honed. But, perhaps, a better house-rule, by far, is to prevent ANY tech advances for AFs at all... at least until SC2 arrives... ... SOON!! We seriously hope and deliriously pray! :cool: That way, you are actually and truly depending on tactical and strategic wit, as opposed to mostly random good fortune. ANYBODY can be King of the SC Hill when they have L4 jets and the other poor plodding soul only has L1 to... make do or die, to sky-high! fight with, eh?

Welcome back BB, ... long time no see, and... good that you made it through. :cool: We're starting to get excited about... SC2!! What about you?

Welcome back BB, ... long time no see, and... good that you made it through. :cool: We're starting to get excited about... SC2!! What about you?

Ummmm, JJ ... I think he was referring to Chris Columbus... Which makes better sense since IMMORTALS don't play hockey, at least they don't anymore, not since Hull and Orr retired to that sparkling Ice Palace in the Sky, yes?

Better cinch it up, exemplar. Better... lay in the full supplies, This is a long, and arduous journey. Yer gonna need a lot of them, oh yes! Those warriors, they have to be strong And smarter than... merely wise. See, That dark side is... HUGE. And it listens to no certain language. It heeds no plainly useless... words. These, it... simply and diffidently Flicks... aside. Get ready, small mortal leader, it's Gonna be a long, and arduous... seige. :eek:

Edwin P, So. I didn't get my words quite right. That happens fairly often, and I don't mind it, but you are right to wonder what I intended. I said this radio-intel was too... complicated. I meant to suggest... it's too... intricate-finicky. I wouldn't mind some sort of larger perspective, as Shaka is talking about. Where you might invest MPPs for "general intel activity." With success or failure revealed by some special scripted event. Or even, with specific on-board effects seen in the diplomatic, industrial or combat arenas. But, introducing "radio signal traffic" is, IMHO, just too... finicky.

This seems about right. I am always in favor of restricting "gamey" strategems, and that disbanding of French Navy is one of the most egregious examples. Chances of it happening IRL... 0.000001 % If that. That SHOULD BE the criteria... COULD it have happened, because we DO NOT want to shove aside reasonable "what-ifs."