Frunze

Andreas, if you weren't sarcastically implying that Peron was a fascist, then your post just plain makes no sense in the context of the thread. Schoerner, you just plain make no sense. Tero, I'll accept that. Does your last point imply that Stalin realized that Germany might turn on him at some point?

Maybe your vehicles seem to be passing through each other because you have them displayed at larger than realistic size. Normally, a tank or other unit set to area-fire a building will stop firing when the building collapses. The area-fire line remains, but the unit stops using ammo.

Wasn't this produced by Germany's goals and situation in the world? That is, trying to achieve world, or at least European domination against competitors with larger areas, populations, and industrial bases. Given these facts, Germany would lose regardless in any war that did not end quickly, but turned into a contest of attrition.

That's a pretty feeble attempt at sarcasm. A. Peron was not a fascist. The generals who overthrew him were closer. That was a slander spread because Argentina remained neutral in WWII. Which tells you little about the character of his regime...except that it had the independence to act in its own interests, and not in Washington's. B. I don't know about "on the scale of Rockefeller", but Peron's government was a capitalist government, albeit one that leaned on the labor unions for support. In contrast to fascist regimes, which smashed them.

Yeah, we all know how capitalists like Krupp, IG Farben, and Henry Ford hated the Nazis.

WWII had already began, in September 1939, with Germany fighting Britain and France, before the USSR invaded Finland in November 1939. So a British-German alliance against the USSR at that point seems unlikely. Earlier, maybe, it coulda been a possibility. And it would've been difficult for Britain to spare forces for a really large-scale intervention in Finland at that point. But if the Winter War had continued - it ended in March 1940 - British involvement might have increased somewhat. (IIRC they were already supplying some weapons.) Which might have interfered with Hitler's plans for the invasion of Norway, which took place in April 1940, one month after the end of the Winter War. These plans depended heavily on surprise, and involved naval attacks that Britain probably coulda messed up with advance warning. If Britain's attention - and the Royal Navy - was drawn to Scandinavia earlier by even a small intervention in Finland, they might have noticed the preparations for the German invasion. One possibility: this may have been a factor in the USSR's decision to negotiate peace with Finland. The Winter War was going somewhat better for them by this point, and they were wearing down Finland by attrition. But if Hitler demanded that Stalin lay off Finland in order to not mess up his plans for Norway....

Presumably they'll rework the tables and proofread the spelling instead of just letting a spell-check program do it, etc. But if there are other errors that might slip by routine checks, it might be helpful to point 'em out. There's a number of places in the manual where "??" appears between two sentences. It often seems to come after statements that are doubtful, inaccurate, or just need clarifying. Possibly this indicates where the author, or some editor, indicated a problem that needed correcting, but the correction was never made. If someone is going to edit the manual now, simply searching through the file for "??" will pull up these statements that may need correction, or in any case the question marks should be removed. For example, on page 1/34: "Trenches and Roadblocks can block all wheeled vehicular movement across them. ?? Fully tracked vehicles can pass, but with a high chance of bogging." Is this fully accurate? Can tracked vehicles cross roadblocks? According to page 61 of the CMBB manual, they can't. Stuff like that.

This is a new printing, not a new edition. Be happy if they fix all the errors.

Oh. I thought you had some exceptionally good deal with CDV or something. Musta misunderstood something in an interview. Nevermind. Yeah, I know normally the maker of the game, especially a small company, would get only a fraction of the retail price. And probably have to allow stores to return unsold copies for cash, and all kinds of crap.

Thank you.

Conceivably, if BFC is getting its cut of every copy CDV sells regardless, they might not be too upset about it. I mean, they don't have a U.S. retail-distribution deal more 'cause they haven't been offered a deal they're happy with than because they have some objection in principle to the game being on store shelves in the U.S., right?

That sounds like a variant on the old "operational surprise is impossible in CM" problem. I think this was a good scenario. I even liked the labels for Allied positions - presumably this was to simulate advance recon? I used this info to knock down the "machine gun nest" building the first turn, and it warned me where the guns were. Downside of doing it with labels is the Allied player knows what the Axis player knows. Possibly the briefing should include info on reinforcements? Knowing more vehicles are on the way would've helped me realize I should attack in the center.

So send out some files to the section and see if we get 'em, John.

Yeah, the defender did have sharpshooters out and knew I was coming - I wanted him to, since the front gate attack was intended as a diversion. Foxholes! Didn't think about that. All the defenders at the front gate were in the buildings. By putting foxholes in the open, the gate could be defended better, yeah.

Ali, by going up only one side, did you have problems with bypassing enemy forces that then attacked your convoy from the side? Troops in trucks or even halftracks can be pretty vulnerable...

I don't think that's enough to hold the front gate. I forced it with one platoon against more than that, including the German company HQ. I had an MG on one side and a squad on another, using the wall as cover to fire on the buildings (it's close enough on that side to do it.) Then I rushed the house on the right side of the gate (my right.) Pricey but effective. Possibly the best way to do this scenario would be to send your whole force through the front gate - there's only enough cover there for a limited number of defenders anyway. But like CombinedArms said no amount of CM experience would let you know that. I sure didn't, the front gate attack was intended as a diversion.

Laxx, you took out a Tiger by rushing it with infantry? Just a regular squad with molotovs and grenades? 'Cause the Russians got no pioneers in this scenario, right? If that worked, I'm impressed.

This one was well done...I suffered a tactical defeat as allies. I initially went up both roads. After spotting the Stugs on my left, I sent infantry, a zook, and greyhounds through the trees, then went after them with those forces and Shermans from the road simultaneously. One was gun damaged, both retreated. I pursued, but they were able to break LOS down the dry riverbed. I continued after them rather incautiously, and advanced up both roads, rooting out German opposition without too much trouble. Then the Stugs reached the end of the map, and all hell broke loose. Most of my opponent's guns were on that side of the map, and I lost all my pursuing tanks, and the tanks on the left-hand road, and some halftracks and trucks to them, the Stug that still had a gun, and the Jagdpanzers. Well-set trap, and I ran headlong into it. No mortars set up to help with the guns, or anything. He did lose most of the guns, and the gun-damaged Stug. My mortars took out the rest of the guns on this side. But without tanks, I could not continue up the left-hand road with my vehicles. (some infantry I'd dismounted continued to advance, though.) I continued up the right-hand road, and diverted trucks that way. Possibly this was a better route of advance from the beginning? Sunken road gives few opportunities for long-range sniping at my trucks and halftracks. Eventually I reached the village, got some troops into the trees by the right map edge at the price of four more halftracks (unexpectedly whacked cross-map by the Stug, which got one hell of a kill list). The German infantry seemed kinda brittle. The Stug got greedy, came over to the right-hand road and got whacked by a 'zook. My remaining 3 tanks took out the jagdpanzers. Luck and I finally did some maneuvering right. Game almost over, though. Broke through all along the right side of the village, and managed to exit my remaining tanks, and the platoon that got into the woods. Most of the trucks didn't get up in time, though - I'd had 'em hang back until I took out the enemy tanks, then moved up over open ground, not road. The one that did got took out by infantry fire. I hadn't played a lot of exit scenarios, and I think I figured out what the deal is while playing this game. The road to success isn't really reaching the exit zone, any more than you start with flag location in other scenarios. In both cases, the first thing is to destroy the enemy, after that you can take flags or exit units. I don't think there would be any way in this scenario to exit the bulk of my forces without first crushing my opponent's, probably to the point of auto-surrender. Assuming that the opponent's trying to block your exit, and not hiding in a corner. Even to exit a little, I had to destroy most of his forces, including all tanks and guns. I know in CMBB after auto-surrender you're credited with exiting any surviving units that are eligible to exit, not sure if that's true in CMBO.

True. Possibly the Withdraw command now carries the increased morale penalty because it worked too well in CMBO. Possibly now it's been weakened a little too much, and the morale penalty should be reduced a little? Apparently a lot of people are having trouble falling back, nd I haven't seen any reports of anyone doing it successfully. I'm not sure if this is needed, or if we all just haven't figured out how to do it - but it would be easier than creating a new command or a major rework of an existing one.

Well, if you can't get limited LOS, you can give short cover-arcs to your squads and other short-range weapons. Ambush the enemy as they cross the last stretch of open space before your line. With individual cover arcs for each squad, you can do this repeatedly, only giving away one squad each time. (Assuming your opponents using reasonably good tactics, i.e. scouting with one squad before rushing. If it's a rush, open up with everything and wipe 'em out.) Either way, you'll do some damage before they can even start suppressing your squads. And they may want to completely break 'em before trying to cross that gap again.

You said your other two opponents surrendered to you. Sounds pretty Uber to me. And you did beat me in Emilville, just not badly enough to beat the median. Rematch? Sure. E-mail me if you want.

Huh? Maybe you mean force type. Like armored, combined-arms, mechanized, infantry-only, etc. With mechanized force type you get lots of vehicle points - maybe no armor points? We're talking about division type. Like infantry, mechanized, SS infantry, Luftwaffe infantry, etc. If you pick mechanized division you get more armor points. If you pick armored force type you'll get more tanks also, of course.

double post [ December 16, 2002, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Frunze ]

Well, even with Shermans it's possible but not easy to take out Tigers. Short range, flank shots, hit 'em with two or more for each tiger, at least 90 degrees apart, coming into LOS at the same time, lotsa smoke to get into position. I did it in CMBO. I played this scenario as Germans, PBEM, though, and my opponent didn't figure out how to do it either. With the numerical advantage that the Soviets have, it might be possible. Conserve initial forces 'til reinforcements arrive? Strip off supporting forces like Holien says? Ambush with those puny AT guns? Don't underestimate those Panzer IIILs, though, mine actually killed as many tanks as the Tigers did. The IIINs are not very effective antitank though. If you can get good ID on 'em, tell which is which...

I played this as Allies, took over the whole camp at the price of heavy casualties, and would have had a German surrender with one more turn. I had had a good time because I never knew what was going to happen next turn. As it's a night battle, I never knew what might be lurking just out of LOS. But I don't think it's well-designed as a CM scenario. The map is far too symmetrical and even to be real, and the challenge is not one of finding military tactics that would work in the real world - it's more of an abstract strategy game, can you fake out your opponent, etc. In other words, the scenario's gamey. I tried misdirection to get through the wire - very loudly and obviously approaching from the front with one platoon, sneaking up to the side with the others. I could hear trucks driving around, making me think I was being successful. A land mine gave me away though, my opponent later said. At the front gate, I put units just behind the wall to provide suppressing fire, then rushed through the gap in the wire. Successful, but heavy casualties. My opponent later described it as a "debacle" for him, and said he pulled back to the rear flags afterward. Then I headed through the wire on the side at two different places. There wasn't much there, but again I took casualties. Probably the main reason there wasn't much there was because of my opponent pulling back to the flags, not so much because of successful misdirection. Then I worked my way around house-to-house. Coming to the big building, I tried to rush it from several sides at once, got wiped out mostly as it was well-defended. Fortunately, one of my squads in the house next to it set it on fire with a gammon bomb, and all those squads ran out and were totally massacred. Then I proceeded to the rear corner. That flag was still neutral I think at the end, as I hadn't completely finished wiping out one unit there. The trucks were hiding in the corner. I woulda done better to leave the PIATs, MGs, and mortars behind - they didn't do much but die, although I tried to use the mortars for smoke and the MGs for suppression going through the wire and the front gate.