Wolfpack

Not true at all. I've played quite a few PBEM battles, and done well with subs. So the first sub will get hunted down quickly...not necessarily, if you immediately move it down to do commerce raiding it will yes, that's why you hold off for a bit. Take France, get the Atlantic ports, build up your air force. Get at least 1 more (Preferably 2 more) subs. Now the British player is faced with a choice. 1. Use the fleet to hunt down and take out your subs? Okay, the door is wide open for Sea Lion, and the MPP loss will cripple the defense. 2. Leave the subs alone and defend the British Isle? Well, now he's got to face your air power and if I'm not going to do Sea Lion, he's losing MPPs for nothing. 3. Split the fleet and try to do both? Worst choice. With a decent number of subs, properly spaced, the half that goes to hunt subs will get hurt. And the half that stays home is probably going to be torn up by my air force. In response to your #2...what do you guys think that a capital ship counter is just a huge mass of BBs and carriers running around? Those counters represent perhaps 2-4 capital ships and a much larger number of cruisers, destroyers, supply ships, ect. How often does the sub kill the entire fleet? only if he's already down a good bit. Therefore, consider the hit the counter takes as the fleet losing it's smaller ships. Anyone who knows the navy knows how much your effectiveness will be reduced by just losing a few of those precious supply ships. To sum up, the subs are a good strategic weapon in that they cause your opponent (AI or Human) to react to your plans. You cause damage to his support inrastructure. And, you can make him pay for any mistakes he makes. As I stated above, they aren't perfect, but they are far from useless as you seem to suggest. [ May 31, 2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Wolfpack ]

Generally if Sea Lion is a go, I'll do it as quick as possible after taking France before the Brits have a chance to build up, but after the Subs are out would be a good time too. A lot less money coming in for repairs then. The real key to Sea Lion is getting London on the first or second turn, then you can keep funnelling troops across without having them sit in transports for a turn off the coast. Of course, if you've already taken out the RN and RAF, that is no longer a problem.

Geez ST...can't you be a bit less verbose? My eyes can't handle all that text.

I don't have much problem getting them there, once I've prepared the way as you can see in my post above. I agree it is hard to do before you take out the RN, but I've managed to sneak one through there beforehand too.

JP's PG Forum

Because if you concentrate on German sub production, and use the Italian fleet well, you can really screw up Britain's defenses. Too easy to kill subs? Perhaps, I think they need to be able to evade more until the Allies get higher levels in Sonar, but even so, they can be useful. I think a lot of the problem here is the time limit. Everyone is trying to do everything in just one year, so things get shortchanged. I've been trying to play the game like I would a full game lately, and it makes a difference. Take out France, then sit tight and prepare for my next move. I use the French bonus to build air fleets and use these to work on the British fleet in the North Sea. Or, if none are within range, bomb the RAF into submission. If I can work on the fleet fine, if I go after the RAF, I'll bring out my 2 cruisers to lure the RN closer to my shores. The North Sea Sub I run through the Channel once the English have been hurt or fled from my air fleets. By this time (especially if the yugos have gone allied and I can put them down) I can afford another sub or two. 4 Subs in the Atlantic can do a lot of MPP damage to England, and once you have a few out there, the dangers of a fleet attack lessen greatly. Just put them a hex or so apart so if one is blundered into, then the follow up ships will most likely hit the other hidden subs. England is given a choice. Repair damaged fleet (expensive) or continue their preparations for defeating Sea Lion. Whatever their choice is, they're in trouble, since either their big advantage (Naval power)is going to be destroyed, or they're going to leave themselves wide open to the Germans. Anyway, that's how I've used subs. They aren't perfect, but they're far from useless.

WOOHOO!!!

TCP/IP play will be included in a free future patch after the game is officially released. Interesting idea to have the replay feature for PBEM games. Definitly something to consider, but for whatever it's worth, I actually prefer the non-replay, I think it adds to the FoW when playing against a human opponent but of course that's just me What I've found is that I like the way you can sneak around a lot and especially with naval warfare, you can sink an enemy ship and all they get back is a report of one of their ships lost at sea and not know by whom or what. It could have been by your whole fleet or by a combination of air and naval etc., and I've found it really adds to the overall tension. Now I'm not saying I won't consider it, but maybe this is something to think about as well, but I'll let you guys debate it out Hubert</font>

I would also like to see this...of course, what I'd like even more right now is TCP/IP to be put in. I hate playing PBEM anyway, I forget what I'm doing by the time I get the turns back. As is, playback is really a feature that is crying for implementation if it's not a huge bother.

Yes it is, and I happen to have nothing going for the next day or so, so feel free to e-mail away.

Why not? Just look at how many Polish pilots and soldiers escaped to return again in '44.</font>

Yes, you have to take 2 I believe, London and Manchester. Then they surrender and everything vanishes. Which is why I posted this. Really, once London falls, Manchester probably isn't too far behind since the Germans can just keep funnelling troops across the channel into the port so the RN can't do anything about it. I'd much rather see them fight on from the empire, even if it would make it harder for me as the Germans. I really think that at the minimum, Malta should fall with the British Isles. I can see Alexandria perhaps getting supplies from the Eastern empire, and Gibralter has a very small chance of being supplied from Canada. Of course, since Spain usually joins when London falls, it's really a moot point. But Malta would be pretty much helpless without supplies from England.

The strategy I've used against the AI is once I take out the low countries (3 air strikes and 1 or 2 ground attacks by armies) I move my panzer units up and hit the French unit in the Ardennes and the one just to the left of it. The AI will almost always pull these units back around Paris, and that gives you a break in the lines. Next turn I move my infantry up first to spot and finish off any wounded units, then run my armor toward Paris, try to smash his air unit before it flees to England, and get as close to surrounding Paris as I can. Usually the Italians come in when you've got a unit next to Paris, so those two armies, I move up to come in behind any remaining French units. Generally by the 2nd - 4th turn Paris will fall and France will surrender. Against a human, it's much tougher. My friend is a WWI general at heart apparently, and insists on filling France with huge numbers of corps that I am forced to batter my way through before I can get to Paris. Makes the invasion last much much longer.

Having less authority does make a difference when you tell the programmers of the game that "It can be done much easier than they would have you believe." or words to that effect. Unless programming is your area of expertise, then you have no right to make a statement like that. I can sympathize with the idea you have, it would be wonderful, but I wouldn't condone coming in here and telling the programmers their business. If there's a market, and it's possible, it will be made whether by BTS or someone else. You'll just have to be patient.

I don't know about for a full year, but my friend defended France through December one time

I agree...I'm sure this is one "Whine" they won't mind receiving. (okay okay, bad yes)

I suppose I'm one of those that Nac4 would put in his "majority" of customers. I'd love to see CM taken up to the next level. Now, having said that, am I willing to wait on CMBB and the rewrite and (most importantly to me) the early war version? No. Like Steve said, if it was something that was easily done, it probably would get done.This is the best tactical combat sim on the market, bar none. And it looks like it's going to be the best for quite a while considering some of the competition I've seen. And they're coming out with one that promises to be even better. I may not be completely happy, but then, there's always something that I think could be improved in any game. War in Russia by Gary Grigsby is probably the best high level East front game ever. Does that mean it's perfect? Far from it, but I still have a great time playing it. And that's pretty much what it's all about when you're playing a game isn't it? As for the customer service and responsiveness. Someone must have been under a rock for the past couple of years. BTS has never stopped checking the forums to see what we think, or if we've spotted something that might have slipped through. And when someone posts something that isn't possible, or would require too much work to be practible, they tell us. The past couple of years has been a great time for small companies and individuals creating games. I already own 2 , and have at least 2 more games that I will buy, that were developed by either individuals or very small companies. One reason is that they are infinitely more responsive to the needs and desires of their consumers. When is the last time you've had a huge gaming company developer take the time to personally answer your questions or respond to a feature request? BTS is responsive, and they do care what we think...unless of course, you come across sounding like some 10 year old playing judge and jury on someone elses life work. So, from someone who is (I admit) disappointed that there won't be a higher level to CM, Thank you BTS for what you have given us, and what you will continue to give us. And thanks for your patience in putting up with the hordes of people asking for (insert feature here) without end. I'm sure you know that the great majority of us respect what you've been able to do with what you have, and will continue to support you for as long as you put the effort into the products that you do now.

Well, I didn't mean what I said there really, I just meant that they'd not be available to ship over to Canada, thereby in game terms, fighting to the last.

Gee, now who needs some sleep?

I think R_Leete and I should both be shipped out full beta copies so we can test out our theories. Agreed R_L?

Ummm...did you not read my post above? If you're doing a "What if" like this game is, you have to do it from all sides. In my world, perhaps the Germans take out Russia in '41. Then spend a couple of years working out the kinks in their intercontinental missle and bombers. Perhaps they even get their own atomic capability. Now, if you're President Truman or FDR, do you approve an A-bomb attack on Germany when you know that the end result is going to be bombing/missle/atomic attacks on your east coast? And if England is taken out...how exactly are you going to deliver these bombs to Germany? Based out of where? The B-29 is not exactly a STOVL aircraft.

Well, the British managed to keep a good supply going into Yugoslavia throughout the war. It's not like you need a deepwater port to deliver supplies to a force smaller than 7 or 8 divisions that don't see stand up combat. Just a fairly steady stream of smaller craft. In the end it really doesn't matter much to me, I've never really had much of a problem with them, even with 2 appearing the same turn. It's a small drain on my resources, but nothing that's going to lose the war for me.

Haha...you'll never know what secret powers I possess! Actually, what should be considered is who the money for their resupply comes from. The British, so therefore, that could be considered not only supplies being brought in from England or Africa, but also advisors and specialists such as the English dropped into Yugoslavia and especially Greece during the war. Considering the problems that Tito and the Chetniks caused for the Germans, and how many troops had to be kept there to keep the problems in check, a full corps is probably an understatement.

Hehe...tell that to the Vietnamese.

I agree with #1, but not necessarily #2. It would make sense for the partisans to want to liberate their own country first, but they can recruit men in the countryside (Where most partisans come from anyway) But I've never let or had a partisan live long enough to do either. Edit - Don't you hate when you think of stuff right after you post? Anyway, the partisans in some countries outnumbered the German units garrisonning the areas, and after Italy collapsed and they claimed much of their equipment, in some cases they were better equipped than the Germans. And that was with the Germans holding onto the major cities. [ May 27, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Wolfpack ]