killmore

You are obviously upset I am just not 100% sure what it is you want... I might actually agree with you... So the scenarios are not balanced. So what? I think AT Rifle is too weak. OK. Soviet 76mm Tank guns might be weaker than expected... Finally you must have large numerical advantage to succeed - that seems right...

You are sick! My wife would just tell me to do something usefull instead!

I killed all german tanks in one turn - all of them by 45mm. - I think my positioning was gamey, 45mm were on both sides of the map and once tanks passed I opened fire. Best one killed 3 PzIII and one PzIV I lost only 1 45mm ATG [ September 06, 2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: killmore ]

Found some numbers - T-34 and KV1 were getting better guns throught the war L-11 guns then F-32 gun and then longer barreled F-34 gun (muzzle speed of about 660 m/s capable of piercing a 65mm thick plates at 30º on a 457 meters range). Standard BR-350A round was capable to pierce 69mm of armor on the common battle range of 500 metres, later a new BR-350P round, capable to penetrate a 92 mm steel plate on the same range, was used. KVs used L41,L42 guns (and in CMBB Demo)- no idea what their penetration was or whether they could use BR-350P round... Anyone has more to share? For details see http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/4635/index.htm (Main page is http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/4635/index.htm)

Not really questioning BTS modeling - I was just very, very suprised. I wanted to be educated better why it is so. Can someone post penetration comparison of 76mm AT Gun and 76mm Gun of soviet tanks? [ September 04, 2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: killmore ]

I speak Polish and Russian fluently and I do have "Bad Polish/Russian" accent. "Tvoja mat" (by Russians) means "f your mother"

1) Since you mentioned different 76mm guns Did T-34 model 1943 had better 76mm gun than previous versions? 2) There was a story about 2 soviet T-34s killing Tigers by shooting at their tracks while Tiger was moving. Then when Tiger rotated side ways they could penetrate the armour. If my memory is correct Tiger had 80mm side armour - that makes the story hard to believe. Chances of penetration seem low.

I also read multiple times that to Germans suprise Soviet 76mm was able to get penetration at point blank ranges on front of Tiger and Panter... That seems impossible in CMBB

BTS gave ATR penetration of 35mm at 100 meters. All the sources I have seen seem to say 35mm at 300 meters. At 100 meters it has to be more! So I believe ATR are underpowered in CMBB! But due to skirts ATRs would not be much better in Citadel scenario anyway. But maybe you could get frontal penetration of PzIII turret from time to time...

Actually angle looks much larger on this picture than it really was (less than 30 degrees) KV cannot penetrate PzIII under 100m - you learn something new every day... What was the point of making SU-76 then if they could not penetrate anything? Just as an infantry support? Do soviets get getter ammo later in the war? (I seem to recall they had Hollow-point for 76mm at the end of the war)

I updated the image links... Wow - and CMBB simulates this? I just found it incredible that PzII cannot be penetrated at 90 meters... How did soviets ever survived 1943???

Please help me - why is this so? Stats say that 76mm can penetrate 80mm at 30 degrees. PzIII hull is only 70mm and not at 30 degrees to me - so why are chances so low??? Why is the chance to kill PzIV higher - it has more armour (and yes it is at 30 meters) Was the 76mm gun really so wimpy? [ September 04, 2002, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: killmore ]

My friend said that playing CMBB can be considered as gambling! Fines could be up to $5000 US... WHAT??? He mentioned couple of articles on the internet - more about it when I find them!!!

I heard that CMBB was banned in Greece. Was it the violence? The german flag? What?

I never had a problem with this scenario - got Total Victory on first try... Spoilers........... . . . . I put my MGs and Mortars in positions to cover the front. Never moved them forward. Kept moving T-34 close together forward couple of hundred meters first turn, after that kept them in place as long as they had target. Then moved them forward slowly about 20 meters or less... I lost only 1 tank commander, tank paniced but return to action on turn 15. My infantry spent 10 turns panicing (except MGs/Mortars) on the ground. I wanted to execute them myself! When T-34s reduced german defences (by turn 15) I was advancing forward. Overall my losses were relatively light...

...SPOILERS... - and lots of them I managed to kill all german tanks in 1 turn! I positioned ATGuns on both edges of valley (and map) (before any flags) I consider this positioning extremely gamey!!! I think this scenario cannot be won against reasonably good human. I tried reverse slope defense - I killed 6 tanks and then I died...

After Poland AI attacked Belgium/France. It would be able to hold AI for quite a while, but it suddenly moves 2 tank armies to Italy and attacked France with German armies from Italy! France lasted until 1941... Then Germany attacked Denmark! After Denmark Axis attacked Yugoslavia and Italy got the booty! So Italy bought Airforce and Tank Army and attacked Greece! AI Italy positioned its new airforce at the hill of the italian boot and I was able to kill it in 1 turn with 4 battleships and 3 Aircraft carriers. Then I shifted my Navy to support Greece and destroyed Italian Tank army at the gates of Athens. (and infantry army too) So now Greece is free! But what is going on supply? I am holding Gibraltar, Palermo-Sicily, Malta, Egypt, Athens and I still have huge supply problems in Greece/Sicily. Why??? Germany attacked Soviet Union after It started to prepare for war... No airforce on east front since all German airforce is trying desperatly to hold off British jets...

Son, if you have anything as big as an 88 go through your tank you won't ever have to worry about MG bullets again. Michael</font>

Hey - I am not crazy just stiring up the discussion and having fun with it! :cool: My conclusions are that it is on the border of needing to be modeled. If so called weak spot penetrations are 1/100 and that darn Daimler nailed my Tiger through front armour at 650m... ... bullet seems to have as much chance of killing someone inside the tank through the ATR hole. By the way what about say 88mm clean shots through Sherman - That leaves a nice large hole! You would have much larger chances of bullets going in...

Hey see what Mike posted --- this is a "theoretical math" - just for fun! But guess what - I think now that assuming you know where hole is you have a chance to penetrate tank. Say 1 in 100. [ August 27, 2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: killmore ]

Thanks for correction! I was very busy when I wrote it and I had no idea about how big the hole would be. However if MG is able to put all its bulltes into plaing card then we only have an area of 90mm by 60 mm thats 540mm. The effective area of the hole is as 37.2 sq mm (as you said). That would make it 37/540 = 6.8% So a bullet would have 6.8% of penetration. So out of 100 bullets say 6 will go into the hole. Now that exciting Feel free to fix my math!

ATR bullet looses all its power after punching a hole. Therefore small amount of damage. Bullets going through the hole don't loose energy thus they will ricoshet inside and kill crew. Now the chance of bullet going through ATR hole is small. But after a couple of more penetrating shots it would grow. The penetrations would also weaken armour making it easier to penetrate with AP. What are the real chances at close distance? Say we are looking at front of small tank frontal surface are would be around 3 meters square... Probably less if you know where hole was made. Hole size is about 15mm square. So how many 15mm sgr in 3 m sqr? 3000000/15 = 200000 So chance is 1 bullet for every 200,000. Quite small. Now you would probably fire at least 100 rounds. So that would make it 1/2000. So with 300 bullets from MGs and 3 holes that would be 300*3/200,000 = 1/222 Still sounds quite improbable. Oh, well that was fun while it lasted... My math may be wrong too, anyway I think I proved to myself it is highly unlikely...

I was wondering about ATR and MG combination. ATR makes small hole, then MG fires at the hole. Ricoshets inside tank will kill crew quickly!

Lets kill'em!

Regarding Soviet AT Granedes: RPG-40 20mm RPG-41 25mm RPG-43 75mm (stream pressure of 100000 kg/cm2) RPG-6 120mm (Produced since october 1943) Source: Weaponry of Red Army 1999 by V.N.Shunkov ISBN 985-433-496-4 If you need more details let me know. [ August 25, 2002, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: killmore ]