Simon Fox

What! I am shocked. How quickly the leopard has changed its spots. "Shocked silence" and "ignoring" as well, tut tut, how unlike you Dorosh. As for Col. Moribundbog, you are not to be congratulated for trying to stir up the simmering into a fullblown barbeque.

As in "Anyhow have a Winfield", I was being deliberately obtuse. I notice they've cobbled together some sort of "Best Of" show. Gives one a mental picture of Leeo anyway, hehe.

Hey Stukes, I reckon Leeo named himself after that character on the PH show whaddayareckon? Hi Mum! ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

No mate, it doesn't work for me either.

Sounds familiar. Hehe, I certainly wasn't so attached to my plan I was defending it. I see this as an entirely intellectual exercise. When you work in my area you get used to divorcing discussions of your work from your feelings. In fact you end up your own worse critic. It makes it hard sometimes when you come along here and "criticise" what someone says and perplexingly they take it personally. My wife thinks I'm always negative because I'm always anticipating the worst. Hard to convince that that's what I do all day Thanks for expounding on your plan as there were a few points I was unclear about. I would still be a little hesitant to adopt your approach because I'm not fond of fighting Germans in woods and if I were defending the town I would definitely put something in those woods. I dunno, maybe I was trying to be too cunning by not using the 'obvious' route Basically though we both agree that getting shot up the arse by the reinforcments wouldn't be fun. On that subject I notice that you have sent an infantry platoon around the eastern flank to set up a blocking position on the wooded ridge. Are they really necessary and I thought they might be a little exposed on their own up there. Your comments about securing the SBF position are pertinent and I actually tasked this "extra" platoon with that job and then to push up to AOA3. On another subject I forgot to mention in my plan that if it were up to me I would take at least one and possibly both of my arty observers with regular ammo rather than VT. I don't think VT is all that effective against buildings or covered emplacements. Oh and one question. I haven't used the US mortar halftracks yet, can you fire indirect with them? And would they usually have a HQ/OP with them? ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Well actually peter, Australian PC User had the demo on it's cover CD ages ago. So maybe you should give those imports the flick and try some home grown product. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Surely the salient point is "originally". The obstacle belt itself is unlikely to be heavier, nor are any defenses covering it since it is recent. Any fixed defenses facing the river will have been stripped to provide a larger perimeter so I don't think there is all that much difference between our two plans. I would be concerned that the approach to the obstacles by your engineer platoon is very exposed and also your SBF position is basically firing over their heads. Also your SBF postion can't support by fire the entry of your infantry platoons through the woods and into the town. All in all if your assessment of the forces in the town is correct (and you should know ) then either plan should work. I fink I sent the same forces there that you did. I would have liked to send some of the other tank platoon there but figured it would help me take the town quicker.

I am not confusing the two, I just misspelled the former, hehe. I was mistaken as I thought the action was against 21st panzer and other Wehrmacht elements rather than 12thSS but upon further reading it seem Cambes was the extreme right flank of the 12thSS and the point at which it did clash with British troops consolidating the lodgement area rather than the Canadians who fought the bulk of the initial actions involving the 12thSS. Even so the scenario is clearly not historical as your 12thSS OOB may be accurate but your British OOB is completely off. I played the scenario against Bastables and we abandoned it halfway through as I got cranky with absence of units clearly in the British TOE and the complete uselessness of Vickers MG without their ORGANIC carriers. (Rune-you can take note of that too as I continue my crusade to educate you-hehe) The scenario is clearly not historical. Here chew on this.... (Jason eat yer heart out) hehe ?was believed that Cambes was lightly held, but as the two woods surrounding it were themselves surrounded by walls some ten feet high, it was not possible to observe the enemies actual dispositions.? On the afternoon of 7th June 1944, D company The 2nd Bn. The Royal Ulster Rifles with support of one Sqn East Riding Yeomanry attacked Cambes and the woods, although gaining entry into the woods strong enfilading MG and mortar fire made the position untenable and they withdrew to attack 2 days later with better support. The picture was as follows: Cambes and Galmanche (another small village some 800 yards south of Cambes), thought to be lightly held by the enemy, were defended strongly as outposts. Buron and St Contest, two villages a further 1000 yards or so south and south west of Galmanche were strongly held. On the east side, La Bijude, some 800 yards south east of Cambes, and Epron, some 500 yards south of La Bijude were held by the enemy with unknown strength. For the attack on Cambes Wood 9th June, 1944 The 2nd Bn. The Royal Ulster Rifles had additional troops as follows: Under Command: one section Field Ambulance. In support, one 6? Cruiser, Royal Navy, the whole of the Divisional Artillery, two troops Anti-Tank (RA) ? one ordinary and one self propelled. One company 4.2? mortars, one company Medium Machine Guns; one regiment of Sherman tanks (East Riding Yeomanry) Royal Engineers in the shape of assault demolition and mine clearance teams, with five Armoured Vehicles Royal Engineers in support. ?It will be recalled that the ground from Anisy to Cambes is open, its distance being approximately 1500 yards, and its width approximately 800 yards. A dusty track with no bordering or fence of any description runs straight from Anisy to Cambes. The intention of the Commanding Officer was simple and direct; ?2nd Bn. The Royal Ulster Rifles will capture and consolidate Cambes?. The plan was as follows: The advance from Anisy to Cambes over the open ground was to be carried out with B Company on the right, A Company on the left with their left on the track, D Company supporting B Company, and C Company supporting A Company, the advance to be carried out under cover of an artillery barrage. The advance was to be in open order, with A and B Companies clearing the front edge of the village and guarding the flanks, and with C and D Companies passing through and capturing the far edges of the village, the whole operation requiring both wood and street fighting. Prior to Zero Hour, the Naval Cruiser gave a five minute concentration onto the village, followed by the Fd Arty giving a series of concentration, behind which the Battalion were to advance. The anti-tank gunners were to protect the flanks, and the East Riding Yeomanry tanks were also to assist. The assault companies, A and B, were each given a demolition and mine clearance team for use until their final objectives, when they were to pass these on to the supporting companies, C and D. The Armoured Vehicles Royal Engineers were to move forward with the Battalion ready to deal with any strongpoints. The 4.2? mortars were given two tasks of crumping onto A Companys first objective, and then to transfer to C Companys final objective. The Medium Machine Gun Company were (1) To cover the left flank, and (2) To consolidate on the final objectives in order to deal with counter attacks. The Battalions own 3? Mortar Platoon were to be prepared to fire on call from the Assault Companies, and then from the two Supporting Companies. The Carrier Platoon under command of 5 Company Commander, Major C. R. P. Sweeny, MC, were to remain at Anisy and be prepared to ferry up ammunition or any other requirements to the objectives. The anti-tank platoon were given protective tasks once the objective had been gained. and the Pioneer Platoon, whose Commander, Lt D. Greer, had left the Battalion on the 7th June to collect some stores from a dump and had not since returned, were to be ready should the Royal Engineers not be in a position to fulfil their commitments. At 1515 hours 9th June, A and B Companies crossed the start line followed by the Battalion O Group behind A Company. The men were well spaced out and advanced in good order, direction being steadied by the Commanding Officer from the left. As the Companies reached the ridge some 1100 yards from the objective, whence they could be permanently observed by the enemy they came under a heavy barrage of mortar and shell fire accompanied by machine gun fire. The Commanding Officer of the East Riding Yeomanry, who had fought with the Guards, observing the advance from the start line, said to himself ?This is where they get to ground, and the attack is held up?. To his astonishment however, the Battalion continued to advance in open order keeping perfect distance. Certainly there is no doubt that the Companies advanced through what appeared to be an impassable barrage with the same unconcern as that shown on a company field firing exercise. Men were dropping all round, but still the advance continued. A Company under Major W. D. Tighe-Wood were particularly unfortunate, losing all three of their Platoon Commanders, Lt R. S. Hall being killed, and the other two, Lt D. Walsh and Lt J. St. J. Cooper being wounded in such a way that they could not carry on. Further, one Platoon Serjeant was also knocked out. But Major Tighe-Wood, despite these difficulties, succeeded in establishing his Company upon the objective and inspired all ranks by his example of cool and determined leadership. Cpl OReilly finding himself the senior person left in his platoon, took command and did very good work during the difficult period of consolidation which followed. In the same Company, Rfn Miller finding his section leader-less, took over command and led his section with great initiative. L/Sjt McCann, A Company, was badly wounded in the face, but refused to drop out of the fight until his Platoons objective had been obtained. B Company on the right, under the command of Major J. W. Hyde, came under heavy mortar and machine gun fire from the flank about 400 yards from the near edge of their first objective. With great presence of mind Sjt Kavanagh of 11 Platoon engaged the machine guns with his Bren groups and also directed the attention of a tank on to the trouble. Subsequent patrolling located several enemy dead in the target area. The first objective was quickly taken, 10 Platoon passing with great speed through the village to the church. their final objective. One German, an SS sniper was wounded and taken prisoner. A and B Companies reached their first objective by 1630 hours. In passing through A Company, C Company, who by this time had the Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers tanks under command, lost these to German 88 mm guns firing from La Bijude. These tanks manned by Royal Engineers had done great work, their crews having shown a strong desire to get to grips with the enemy, carrying out tasks which strictly they were not intended to do. the history of the 79th Armd Div has something uncomplementary to say about this misuse of ARVEs around Cambes However. C Company Commander, Major J. C. S. G. de Longueuil, could not communicate with them during the battle, and they fought until their tanks were knocked out underneath them. When C Company with great vigour and dash, had fought their way through the wood to their final objective, they were unfortunate in losing one of their Platoon Commanders, Lt R. C. Diserens, who regardless of his own safety, was running about in the open under fire, putting his platoon into position. This very enthusiastic young officer was severely wounded and died later from the effects, a great loss to his Company and to the Battalion. D Company, which it will be remembered was sadly depleted, went through B Company, and almost immediately, two of its remaining three officers were wounded, Captain J. Montgomery the acting Company Commander, though wounded twice in the leg, carried on throughout the battle, and Lt Lennox, after leading his Platoon with great determination was severely wounded and could not carry on. Had D Company not secured its objective, it is possible that the enemy could have used this portion of the village and wood to make a very vigorous counter attack. In this battle D Company lost a further two killed, fifteen wounded, and one missing. Immediately the leading companies had reached their first objectives, the Anti-Tank Platoon under command of Captain C. R. Gray was ordered to move forward to assist in consolidation. All gun detachments moved forward in the face of an accurate 88 mm and mortar fire, and succeeded in being manhandled into position with the exception of one detachment. This was commanded by Cpl Boyd and received a direct hit from an 88 mm shell which besides knocking out the carrier, wounded Cpl Boyd and Rfn Heald and killed Rfn Bingham. Rfn Walton the remaining member of the crew escaped without injury. The gun itself was later recovered and manhandled into position. Whilst consolidating against a probable counter attack, the enemy subjected the position to a vicious attack of mortar and shell fire which lasted for five hours, so that the digging in was carried out under the greatest difficulties. During the consolidation, Captain M. D. G. C. Ryan, Headquarter Company Commander, was severely burnt in the hands by the explosion of a Phosphorous Smoke Bomb, and evacuated, and Major Brooks, MC, the very popular commander of the RA Battery which had supported the Battalion since 1939, was killed. At the end of the day, the Battalions total casualties were three Officers and forty one Other Ranks killed, seven Officers and one hundred and thirty one Other Ranks wounded and evacuated, three Officers and three Other Ranks wounded but not evacuated, one Officer and ten Other Ranks missing, making a total away from the Battalion of eleven Officers and one hundred and eighty two Other Ranks. Many of the wounded had been amazingly cheerful, joking in the face of the most frightful wounds. The Medical Officer, Captain C. R. Wright, RAMC, and his staff of medical orderlies and stretcher bearers had been a pillar of strength, dealing with patients with the same calmness and a good deal more humour than was normally shown on the non operational sick parade. Mention has already been made of Captain Aldworth and Lt Diserens. Lt Hall had not been with the Battalion for as long as them, having joined in January from the Coast Artillery, but he was already marked out for promotion by his ability and excellence as an officer, while to his many friends, his death meant the loss of one for whom loyalty and reliability were always paramount virtues and for whom gaiety and good humour were as essential as the breath of life. Morale in the Battalion never faltered from the beginning. The Battalion took its victory and its wounds as if they were normal everyday occurrences. After consolidation, the Officers and Men soon learnt the advisability of digging deep, and the Germans regular strafing was soon the cause of much laughter and singing of such songs as ?Run Rabbit Run?. Cambes was not liked, but it was looked upon as a stepping stone to bigger things, and in order that the Germans could know this too, strong fighting patrols soon took up the offensive. When the 2nd Battalion was ordered to move forward again, it was not weaker owing to Cambes but stronger, and the Germans soon learnt to recognise the strong fighting spirit of the Royal Ulster Rifles. It was learnt later that as a result of this operation, Major W. D. Tighe-Wood, Captain J. Montgomery and Lt S. M. Lennox had been awarded the Military Cross, Cpl OReilly the Distinguished Conduct Medal, L/Sjt McCann, Rfn Long (who as a Signaller with C Company had attended a wounded man under severe shell fire with complete disregard for his own safety) and Rfn McGlennon (who as D Companys runner had maintained personal communication throughout the worst phase of the battle) the Military Medal. By July 3rd the geography of Cambes and its surroundings were firmly imprinted on our minds. The village itself must have held a population of some 300 before the war, but now, of course, there was none, the last civilians ? four old ladies ? being evacuated by ourselves on June 12th. The main road ran from North to South through the village from Villon Les Buissons on its way to Malon, and ultimately Caen, having Galmanche and St Contest on its right, and La Bijude and Epron on its left. North East and North of the village lay the wood, and through it into the village ran a track from Anisy, which was our main channel of supply and communication. This track was generously bordered with trenches and ditches, and many a visitor, trapped in a spell of Boche harassing fire, abandoned his vehicle for one of these. Within the framework of these roads stood the Chateau, a large white impressive structure set in what a few years before must have been beautiful surroundings. The back windows looked down an avenue which connected La Bijude with Cambes, and the front looked across the Northern stretches of the wood which contained our own Mortar platoon and half the other Battalion that was holding this area with ourselves. Some 200 yards to the West of the Chateau stood the Church, the meeting point of all roads and tracks leading into and out of the village. It was a fine old Norman church and once it had dominated the village architecturally just as its preachers and doctrines influenced the lives of all that dwelt there. Now, penetrated again and again by shells and shrapnel, its grandeur was a mere shadow of its former self. The railway followed along the Southern edge of the wood, crossed the Avenue at a level crossing and then swung South to follow a tortuous path towards Caen. Just East of the level crossing was Cambes station or halt ? a building which we would have described as a signal box. June 9th, 1944, 2nd Battalion, Middlesex regiment, MG Regiment (Vickers and 4.2? mortars) During the afternoon the Royal Ulster Rifles, of 9th Infantry Brigade, made an attack on Cambes Wood, supported by "B" Company and Nos. 10 and 11 Mortar Platoons. The opening barrage included both mortar and machine-gun fire, the mortars firing on the wood from Cazelle and Nos. 4 and 6 Machine-Gun Platoons of "B" Company raking the wood from the left flank with fire at a range of no more than 400 yards. As soon as they opened up they were heavily engaged by enemy artillery, losing three men wounded. The R.U.R. advanced frontally on the wood from Anisy, down a long, open, forward slope and under very heavy fire from enemy tanks at La Bijude. As the infantry reached the edge of the wood, the remaining platoon (No. 5) of "B" Com-pany raced down the road from Anisy on a consolidation task, but at the last minute their carriers were held up by the infantry. For a few moments they were brought to a standstill, giving the enemy tank gunners a stationary target. The leading carrier was hit, fortunately without causing any casualties to the crew, but the others managed to get into the corner of the wood at Cambes, where the guns were quickly mounted to form a defensive screen. The Commanding Officer, coming up on the pillion of a motor-cycle to the wood for a conference with the brigadier, had his cycle hit by anti-tank fire and had to crawl and run the last hundred yards, he and his driver, Sergeant Davis, both running the gauntlet of a very persistent sniper on the exposed flank. Cambes Wood was not a healthy place for the issue of further orders, for the enemy, having themselves withdrawn, directed a heavy mortar fire on the whole area. One bomb landed on Major Passy?s carrier, killing him, Corporal Green, his driver operator, Lance-Corporal Rees, and Private Baker. C.S.M. Bell, who had accompanied Major Passy, was mortally wounded a few minutes later by another. Nor was that the full tale of the losses at Cambes, for Captain McDowell, second-in-command of "B" Company. came up to the wood as soon as he heard that Major Pause had been killed and was himself killed imme-diately on arrival. The enemy fire directed on to the wood at Cambers became fiercer as the evening wore on. Movement became almost impossible and the Commanding Officer was pinned down near No. 5 Platoon. Lance-Sergeant Davis, his dispatch rider, distinguished himself during the evening by the complete dis-regard of danger with which he ran messages up and down the wood and tended the wounded under heavy fire. The bar to the M.M., which he won that day, was richly deserved. Captain H. B. Neve, the mortar O.P. officer, also won the M.C. for his gallantry on this occasion. While directing the fire of two mortar platoons, he had to sit out in the open as his wireless remote control gear had been hit by shrapnel, and the coolness and efficiency with which he directed the fire with shells and bombs exploding all round him was beyond praises At last light, the K.O.S.B. reached Cambes to reinforce the Royal Ulster Rifles. With their arrival the German fire gradually died down and the area was finally consolidated and firmly held.

The real question is: Are grass mods gamey? ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

It is not the specifics of what BTS had to say (ie 10 secs or whatever) but the underlying principles. You originally said Which is, in part, the basis for your argument and is wrong. The concept of "many hats" is alive and kicking The player and the tacAI do not have distinct roles nor do they represent orders emanating from different units. My inclination is that movement orders attract an additional delay because movement orders are likely to require the coordination of a higher HQ. In contrast targetting decisions are more likely to be controlled at the unit or sub-unit level. Obviously there are exceptions. You misunderstand me. I am strongly in favour of relative spotting. But I think it needs to be implemented properly and that will be a difficult task, though not insurmountable. I feel your simple solution is too simple, a stop-gap measure which will result in possibly more unrealistic situations than it solves. I reiterate, the tacAI cannot be relied upon to always make the most reasonable targetting decision, even in the context of the individual unit alone and leaving aside wider tactical considerations. Any proposal which reduces player control (something I am not in principle against) must be implemented in as realistic a manner as possible. But this is relative spotting and has nothing to do with a targetting delay. I can equally think of circumstances where your proposal will cause problems. What happens when an infantry squad faced with mutiple targets, chooses to fire at a highly exposed vehicle crew close by instead of firing at an AT team further off about to shoot one of your tanks up the arse. Boy, I can just see the "BTS, please fix or somefink" now hehe. There will always be a problem with absolute spotting because you will never get away from the fact that the player will know what the units see. I think the most likely and feasible solution will be that units will be unable to react too or fire at things they have not themselves spotted. Even so some inter-unit communication of spotted threats will have to be allowed especially for close infantry units... gets more complicated the more you consider it hehe ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Friction? Well there are negative aspects to what you propose and there's more than one way to skin a hamster, err I mean cat. What you propose is not relative spotting and I venture to say that would be plenty of complaining if it were implemented. The TacAI is simply not smart enough to rely on without the opportunity to correct it every 1min. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000342.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000267.html Charles wrote:

I think there is some merit in what you have to say. I certainly agree that you have an unrealistic control over your troops. However, I disagree that the command process in CM simulates commands "from above" alone. The TacAI is not intelligent enough to simulate the actions of section or platoon leaders on its own. You as the player represent all levels of command which unfortunately gives you a degree of coordination not present in real life. If you really want to simulate the relaying of orders from the Btn or Co HQ down you should have a command delay of 5-10 minutes while the HQ runner finds the platoon/team/squad. Since you seem to have misconceived the rationale BTS used to design the orders/delay structure in CM, I suggest you might like to get your collective rodent paws and click on that search button. It may be hard to find but BTS have stated their views in the past. Personally I think relative spotting will be the panacea for many of these problems and tinkering with the current system might open a can of worms. Then maybe Hamsters like worms in their lettuce? ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

I wouldn't take people who think Sherman 105s fired tungsten ammo too seriously either. Especially when they don't make a distinction between tungsten and HEAT and go off half cocked "BTS there is no bug, please don't fix or somefink"...hehe..chortle... ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

I suggest the whole lot of you do a freekin search, especially you tom before you go off half cocked with yer "massive PIAT bug, BTS please fix or somefink". Still, I suppose it was good for a laugh, hehe.....still chortling.... BTW as pointed out by somebody or other there WAS a thingy to hold it in place. The PIAT was a spigot mortar like the ARVE "main gun". hehe.....chortle.... [This message has been edited by Simon Fox (edited 03-27-2001).]

I don't think this sort of force structure is necessarily ahistorical apart from the puppchens and PAWs that is. Certainly less so than a lot of armour. What is ahistorical is the level of success it acheives in circumstances where it shouldn't, which seems to arise from some limitations in modelling as pointed out by others. Do the users restrict themselves to certain types of battles? It seems to me that it should be limited. I must admit I have only encountered a form of it once and I didn't recognise it as "gamey" at the time. Maybe that's because I won, hehe. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Funnily enough this is a legitimate RL tactic, the tank crew think they are brewing up and bale out. Worked best with WP I believe. If the Sherman was trying to screen himself I would think he would have popped smoke from the discharger (very effective I have found) rather than fire a round. So maybe somefink is going on? ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

I can't claim to be an expert but since no one else has replied I'll give you my views. First mechanised infantry are a waste of time, their halftracks might provide handy firepower but I haven't used them thusfar. Take it slow. Be methodical. Use area fire where you think the bad guys might be (with your supporting weapons not infantry). Liberal doses of HE: tanks, mortars and arty seem to do the trick. Protect your flanks when advancing as it's easy for AT teams to sneak up on you. I prefer to fight June scenarios in the bocage as they remain inpenetrable to allied tanks too. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Great news guachi as I use it all the time. Oh and I forgot to say: Welcome back! ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Do you mean First Clash at Cambres? I don't think either that one or South of Sword are particularly based on historical battles, at least only in a general way. Certainly the British TOE is a bit off the mark. Also I would have thought it would be Canadians in Cambres not Brits. Also I thought the 12th SS first bumped into the Canadians around Authie. The fighting round Cambres involved other German units I think. As for South of Sword historically I it seems that an infantry heavy British force bumped into strong armoured elements of the 21st Pz and deciding they didn't have the tanks to do much consolidated where they were. For historical accuracy some of the Bulge scenarios seem pretty good. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

I think BTS are more aware of the limitations of arty in the game than you think. I agree that there are many of these. The current model is certainly much better due to input from this forum than that originally proposed. I definitely concur with yours and I could add: 7. If the target is out of los the pattern is wide. This should not be the case. The pattern density should be the same. 8. Control of arty. The FO has an ahistorical lack of control: "Battery, 5 rounds, Fire!" 9. Behaviour under arty. You allude to this in your point 6 but I would extend it even further. British WW2 studies clearly show that even slight undulations and unevenness in the terrain can dramatically reduce arty effectiveness. This is why VT is so effective. (a) Finding cover immediately should be modelled. ( Troop experience should affect response to arty. Veteran or better troops may even "anticipate" the barrage. Especially when a spotting round lands nearby! © Arty should cause the accumulation of suppression and move to broken or panicked states just as for other fire. But this should not cause troops to stand up and run around in the middle of a barrage. It's silly, it's annoying, it's unrealistic and it can greatly increase the effectiveness of arty. BTS may be justifiably hesitant to implement some of these changes since they will increase arty effectiveness greatly so maybe changes to behaviour under arty fire will ameliorate this somewhat. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

A collective sigh of relief all round. As for Croda's spelling it was unlikely to be unintentional since he tries to put the ass in everything.

I am sure that the US Army is not run by a bunch of bozos as implied by some posts in this thread. As a disinterested observer it seems to me that the proposal is directed at providing better protection for the infantry under certain circumstances where heavy tanks are unavailable. It's all a matter of "horses for courses". As I understand it not every US soldier has the option of wrapping "a couple of feet of M-1 Abrams Chobham around one's precious butt" perhaps those guys might appreciate the availability of a bit more firepower on the ground in a hurry when it counts. Every time this sort of bash your own army or political control of it thread comes up the spectre of Somalia is raised. I've got to admit this is one of the most amusing, the idea of a bunch of Abrams trolling round shooting up Mogadishu while on a supposed humanitarian mission is pretty funny. I would suggest there were a few more planning cockups involved than just the absence of a few heavy tanks. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Sheesh! Will the quantifiers vs the qualitators become worse than than the attritionists vs the maneuverists? Can the sermoniser acheive moral ascendency over the expatiator? Or will he choke upon those 'grits' (whatever the hell they are)? The disinterested masses are just that. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Scout, I just thought I'd let you know that I thought it was an interesting exercise. Though you only had a few responses I am sure there were plenty of others who, like myself, just didn't have the time to spell out their thoughts in the detail of those who responded. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

I always like the story in one of Ken Touts book where a Stuart is doing recce in front of an armoured column in Belgium or Holland and spot a roadblock up ahead. They park the tank, dismount (something recce vehicle crews OFTEN did) and sneak around through a farmyard and spot a bunch of Germans lurking behind a hedge in ambush. So they go back and get the .50 cal they have on the AA mount on the Stuart turret and not having a proper mount they lash it to an old wagon wheel they find in the farmyard. Having set themselves up they then proceed to shoot the Germans up and the survivors flee. The roadblock is cleared without further ado. hehe On the subject of the Stuart recce, it would be great if BTS changed the name from Kangaroo, thus saving us a lot of whining from the Babs direction and also armed it with at least one MG. Then you could use it for carrying a recce section around (if you had one). ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"