Simon Fox

How percipacious (look that up in yer 'Oxford) of you Dorosh. So it is OK for you to accuse Kitty of "name calling" for saying this Fritz character is a twit when you said: "I don't think it is a particularly good book, and it seems poorly researched." about his work. Well I can expect you to leap to the defense of Ambrose, Corelli Barnett etc and any other author who is categorised as a twit in future. Or could it be that you failed to observe the double quotation in Kitty's post? Could it be you are a hair trigger sermoniser? I would really need to see how Zetterling derives this comparison to comment. But it seems like a rather simplistic comparison as I see: no mention of the rather wasteful ratio of support personell to actual combat troops in especially US formations (the allied 'tail' was a lot larger than the German), no mention of the fact that these other authors based their analysis on the 'pointy end' of the equation. I'll reserve my judgement as the Zetterling book looks pretty good. Michael the book is "Genius for War: German General Staff......." by Dupuy I seem to recall that the combat effectiveness ratio derived by Dupuy was more akin to 1.25:1 than 1.5:1. Also Dupuys mathematical modelling contains a number of underlying assumptions which are necessarily open to debate as pointed out by aacooper they have been questioned by John Sloan Brown. I recall I read an article in "parameters" which was by Brown, I think it is on line so I will try and hunt it out. Bit of a sweeping statement don't you think Michael. You don't see a lot of tactical brilliance in many of the German attacks in Normandy either. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Hey you know when I look at this board it reminds me of that song, you know, the one that goes: "I can see for niles and niles and niles....." ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

That's just the kind of smartarse comment I'd expect from you Guano. Hi Mum (that's Mom to you Guano) ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Sorry Goanna, not having the benefit of your US education I don't 'know' what a smartass is. Aha! your posing as an Aussie is revealed for the sham it is. You Foster's (blech) swilling, shrimp munching septic Claytons Aussie. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Bah! Rest assured, it took a supreme effort of will not to adopt my traditional Aussie barbeque style. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

OK, no worries, hehe. I don't know that a lot of those saw much action in the west. Pretty rare anyway compared to battleship or cruiser support in Normandy. There may be a few old threads in the archives on this topic which a search could winkle out but I suspect rarity is the answer to your question. BTW I suggest you go with the "It would be really cool if this were in the game" attitude rather than the "This should/must be in the game" technique. The former is likely to get you a lot further. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds" [This message has been edited by Simon Fox (edited 03-01-2001).]

I don't think they had those electromagnetic launchers in WWII ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Bump Let's keep this thread going guys. Jeff goes feral. Cavscout stirs him up. Jeff goes more feral. Dorosh spoils the fun as usual by sermonising left, right and centre. Something completely obscure gets analysed to death. No one get's too upset (except Jeff). Jasper is bloody funny. It's a regular microcosm of the CM board. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

No to the first and yes to the last. You would have had to go back a fair way to dig this one out. A popular request but it had some sort of implementation problem I think. IIRC Steve did say they would have liked to have it in. Gridded grass can help a lot but it is not the same, especially if you are used to reading maps. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

were all three flags of identical worth? ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Look here Jimbo (hope you don't mind if I don't use your other unAustralian name ), that attitude is a bit off the mark. The true blue approach would be to unmercfully take the piss out of them. Ken Oath! Shatter, Good to see some more of your fine work here, it is hard to see how someone could be making a joke and be completely misunderstood isn't it? Hi Mum! ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

I have had a bit of a hunt around and it seems the US and British 4.2in mortars are totally different weapons which bear little resemblance to one another apart from the calibre. The British 4.2in is a conventional type mortar with fin stabilised rounds. In contrast the US weapon is a rifled weapon in which the rounds are stabilised in flight by spin. It's rounds are substantially larger and different than the British weapon, so hence the different blast rating. It is quite different to the more recent US 4.2in mortars since they underwent redesign following WWII. As for the issue of cast vs steel. It may be that steel casings are stronger and allow more charges and therefore increased range (I don't know). But cast casings were definitely found by the British to be superior for fragmentation effect. In WO 291/129 "Lethality of 3" mortar HE bomb" The cast iron (Mark IV) bomb was found to be clearly superior to the the steel (Mark III) bomb because of finer fragmentation. In fact it was almost twice as good with a substantially larger vulnerable area. Which just goes to show that weight of HE isn't everything. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Which raises the question of round effectiveness since there is evidence that cast mortar rounds gave superior fragmentation effect than steel rounds. I am unsure as to how CM determines "blast" but if it is by filling alone then there will be scope for considerable anomaly. Were US 4.2in HE cast or steel? Though British and US 4.2" mortars are based on the highly successful WWI Stokes mortar I am uncertain as to their subsequent development paths, though I do know that the US mortar was substantially redesigned. Of course a WP/smoke round was freely available for both in WWII hehe. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Juardis wrote I disagree. The German conclusion was that they wouldn't work on their own. The defenders of Crete were a cobbled together force made up largely of evacuees from Greece. They had few heavy weapons and limited ammunition and supplies. Many did not even have rifles. They had very little in the way of mortars, artillery, AA guns etc etc. Most of the infantry had no grenades. Critical was the shortage of communications equipment to coordinate the defense and hardly any transport. In all but one of the targets the defenders acheived complete victory despite these deficiencies. In fact in some instances the Cretan police armed with WWI vintage Springfield rifles gave the Jagers a bloody nose. The margin between victory and defeat was so slight and marginal that the most miniscule of differences would have resulted in an allied victory. The decision cited by Rex is but one of those. If the idiots in Egypt had sent a few 25pdrs (even 1 battery might have turned the tide) instead of the ineffective captured Italian 100mm and 75mm guns they did send. Or ammunition and weapons (eventually supplied by the Germans ) for the guys who were there instead of more men (ie the Argyl & Southern Highlanders or a bunch of commandos) who did bugger all anyway. The whole thing is an example of the piecemeal British approach of the time (ie Greece, Western Desert, Syria etc). Once again Aust. and NZ troops were left inadequately supported and once again they nearly saved the day but at great cost. All to often what is overlooked is that the Fallschirmjagers didn't have a huge impact on the battle apart from dying a lot. The real architects of victory were the airlanded Gerbiljagers. Jim R Neutralization of a potential threat. Control of the sea. Crete is strategically placed in the Med. Not quite as good as Malta but pretty good, a big fat unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle of the Med. Potentially long range bombers stationed there could threaten the Rumanian oilfields, that was the argument used to convince Hitler anyway. I don't think they planned to do much with it, just stop the British using it against them. Berli quoting James Lucas: Geez, Lucas is full of it, I like the: "we shot a lot of Germans in the air" vs the "no I didn't get shot in the air I got shot on the ground" argument. It's not as if the defenders didn't clean up a bit around them. I guess these were the same German medical officers who found evidence of 'atrocities' (ie bayonet wounds in the back) when in fact after about a week the defenders had to go around sticking the hundreds of decomposing bodies to stop them swelling up. As for the marksmanship, 150yds is too far. The 2/1st were well dispersed on and around Hill A at Retimo and had about 800 Fallschirmjagers dropped on them. In addition to rifles they had Brens and some Vickers (which were shooting up the JUs) 600 bodies were counted in the aftermath, about 50-60 were captured and the rest holed up in an olive oil factory (later captured). Many were shot in the air or immediately after landing since they just about landed on their heads. Berli is right in saying that many transports were shot down or their occupants shot up, although there was little AA around, the transports were so low that MGs were very effective. Rex wrote I have read this before and it's a bit steep to drop all the blame on one guy, even if he is a kiwi . Perhaps unlike Student he didn't want the earth of Crete awash with the blood of his men. Communications were the main problem and I am not sure if he was aware that help was at hand. IIRC his unit was very short of ammo at the time. I am sure if he had been able to contact his superiors the story would have been different. In fact lack of radios is most cited as the critical factor by some authors. Actually they didn't completely capture it before they flew them in . An operation was planned against Malta at a later time using the Ramcke parachute brigade (later to fight in the desert) and air units were transferred to Italy from Russia for the purpose. Kesserling was all for it but Rommel went over his head to Hitler and vetoed the idea. Another example of how overrated he was. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Great work Steiner, been thinking the same thing myself for sometime. Thanks fore the pics dalem. Unfortunately it isn't exactly going to behave how it looks but still it will be a great improvement. As you say some grass texture on the bank would finish it off nicely. I understand the underlying 3D model is pretty boxy so it will be impossible to get that look of having trres in it, pity. You can't get them that close together in the game either, so you lose some of that claustrophobic feeling. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Well Mr Scurlock I'd appreciate it if you kept your pole to yourself. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

It is very difficult for infantry to kill a tank by close assault without appropriate weapons ie Fausts or Demo charges. It is very difficult for tanks to kill infantry by close assault without appropriate weapons ie infantry A point to note: the open terrain in CM is not a barren plain devoid of cover or a well mowed fairway. In fact I wish someone would get rid of that grass look altogether as it's so bloody misleading. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Andreas, It seems you misinterpreted my points which were of degrees rather than absolutes. Certainly I was not trying to throw a positive light on the whole episode, just trying to point out that there were far worse debacles. I definitely did not intend to evaluate the operation by the yardstick of those questions alone. Your questions and others are equally valid. It seems to me that things often go awry, the measure of competence is how one deals with the situation. It appears that Worthington's force strayed into the axis of advance of the Polish division. It suprises me that they were unable to exploit that fact, though clearly they tried. The armour losses are so high because they were using tanks to do an infantry job. The same may well apply to the Poles, at the time the Commonwealth armoured divisions had the force mix all wrong. Hehe, well actually it is a classic tactic employed by the Commonwealth infantry divisions at Alamein which works really well against hidebound Germans. Attack at night, get on the objective (which is of little significance in itself), consolidate before dawn, smash the inevitable Axis counterattack. That Rommel, sooooo predictable . Though I don't know the specifics of Worthingtons backround, I think you are being a little harsh there, sometimes there is no way of knowing. One of the positive aspects of the self-depreciating British attitude was that often they would acknowledge that they were "not up to it". Suprisingly in accounts this is generally seen as positive whereas the idiots who keep plugging away are derided ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Currently, Bullethead, Cavscout and ScoutPL, while maintaining a constant position, have maneuvered Henri and Pillar into a deep hole ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

It was good to read that article again but it is easy to view it as a complete debacle. The critical word missing from the conclusion is "inexperience". I wouldn't view the entire thing as a debacle either. Questions I would ask are: -What were the German casualties in this battle? The Canadian casualties are heavy but they were hardly 'wiped out'. -What effect did concentration of powerful German forces against this force have in releiving pressure on other Allied units? The Germans clearly saw this as a considerable threat. Worthington Force penetrated the German MLR(a loose description I know) with relative ease and deployed in a relatively good defensive position and fought a defensive battle (the ideal type for an inexperienced force) against the inevitable German counterattack inflicting considerable casualties on the Germans (apparently). As far as I can see whether they were on 195 or 140 is fairly irrelevant in that context, though considering the care taken in pathfinding during Totalize generally it is very perplexing. The only critical element missing from the mix is artillery support. I suspect that things would have been a fair bit different if they had it. There are plenty of battles in Normandy where Commonwealth infantry forces of similar size were fairly isolated and with little or no armour support smashed German combined arms counterattacks if they had good artillery support. The 2nd Canadian Army was made up of predominantly inexperienced units but the initial stages of Totalize employing largely experienced units were a generally a brilliant success and followed a similar pattern. The difference was good pathfinding and leaders and staffs experienced in fighting a battle. There is always a weeding out process, it is inevitable, it happened to all armies, accentuated by small prewar armies and the need for rapid expansion. It is best if this weeding out is occurrs outside the context of critical offensive operations ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

"I was back at my O.P. when I witnessed the most extraordinary phenomenon. Way over to the north east was a strange dark spectre. A cloudless, sunny day, the sky was clear except for this unnatural-looking blob. Steamboat and Wenholz were with me. "It can't be aircraft, its too dense" We were immobilised for a few seconds while we registered the significance of what we were seeing. The blob was opening up so that we could make out separate black specs....massed! "Oh ****!" "Strewth, there's hundreds, sir."" later "The Me110s dropped smoke markers and turned westward. We could forget about them. Not so the Stukas. Down they plunged, with that all too familiar frightening whine, and we suffered the jolt of their bombs. The transports were on the other side of Stavromenos. Down they dropped, lower, lower, "Oh hell, they're going to land on the strip." Wrong! They banked at two or three hundred feet and suddenly spawned. Like giant spiders, the JUs dropped from filaments their little hatchlings: white egg casings and black ones, peeling off to lower these apparent arthropods as we watched. Still out of our target area, we gazed with detached interest, safe in the knowledge that they were no threat to us. It was different for the 2/1st on Hill A. Already they were shooting at these tiny specs of life, borne on the wing, born to die in Crete. Bodies were falling limp over Stavromenos." -John Fitzhardinge ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

Good on yer Maximanus, you may now attempt once again to extract your hoof from your oral cavity. Admittedly John Hough may look a little undernourished to you but he was an olympic athlete in the 10,000 meters at the Atlanta Games. I guess your not used to anything other than the: consume 90% of the worlds food with 10% of the population look (or somefink like that). It takes all sorts and we wouldn't want everybody to look like a basking walrus would we? ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

So that is gamey is it? Would you consider US infantry supported by British funnies (Crocs and AVREs) gamey? Warning: this question is loaded. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"

All good stuff and grist for the CM2 mill. As Andreas pointed out earlier many of these issues could be improved with a greater variety of tiles. Which brings me to: With the exception of bocage. I have yet to see a bocage map which evokes the claustrophobia and isolation of the real thing. The main reason is the absence of tiles in which the bocage runs along the edge of the tile and road tiles with bocage close on either side of the road. The same applies to hedges and walls. More tiles are needed I fink. BTW looks cold. The closest we have to that white stuff is beach sand hehe. ------------------ "Stand to your glasses steady, This world is a world of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already, And here's to the next man to die." -hymn of the "Double Reds"