Bil Hardenberger

The Command Ops games do this at the Operational level... and they are pretty slick.  At the tactical level, I don't think there is anything that attempts to simulate C3 to a level approaching the realistic, just simulating the communications network would go a long way to getting closer to a real command sim...
 
...however, most players, I would bet, are not remotely interested in something that would make it harder to play the game and make their unit's slower to react to player orders.  There are some people around though that are very interested in as realistic a command environment as possible and that's what I'm attempting to create with this system.

INITIATIVE
 
I wanted to go ahead and post the parts of the rules on using Initiative.. Warren could use Initiative with the other tanks in his tank platoon if they meet the requirements.
 
Initiative is meant to be an individual unit reaction to enemy contact, and they are designed to be temporary tasks and are not meant to replace teh current assigned Task.
 
I also have attached the full set of rules to this post now that all aspects of the system have been explained.
 
 
 
COMMAND FRICTION For CM RULES 24MAY15.pdf

Hehheh, I already fixed the code, new Workbook is attached.. thanks MOS!!  Set the time as seen in the game clock (with the period to separate the hour from the minute) and the calculations will all now work correctly,IOW you can enter the times as 1.00 and 2.00 and they will still work.
BATTLE LOG-PzG Battalion 21JUNY15.zip

Of course my tanks are vulnerable.. but mine are stationary and Doug will have to move his into my field of view which will effect his spotting.. in tank v tank combat the spotting battle is where the thing is normally won or lost... moving and staying buttoned up (like Doug did with his Panther) makes it very hard to see and shoot at a hull down Sherman that is not moving.  
 
I'm not a fool though, Doug's Panther will probably get a spot on my tank fairly early in the next turn which is why I am withdrawing it (after a 15 second pause to put a few more rounds downrange).  You have to take risks to win.. but make sure they are educated risks when you do, they will have a much higher chance of working out.

I really shouldn't post until I finish my coffee.

Odin, you might be reinventing the wheel a bit.. my system (now being playtested) does take into account reaction times for radio versus non-radio equipped units.
 
I do however like your ideas about area fire and might incorporate them (I will of course give you credit if I do).

This is a playtest of my rules for applying C3 effects in CM.. myself and The_Capt, my normal sparring partner are playing through this test scenario to get a feel for the viability of these rules.  We have just begun, I have created workbooks for each of us and we have both given our initial orders.
 
The scenario is a modified version of the Roadblock training scenario.. I added a tank platoon to the German side and adjusted some of the unit settings.  This should give a good appreciation of how the rules work.  I will be making the scenario and the workbooks for the scenario available for all to play with and follow along if you like.
 
The key to these rules are the workbooks... more on them to follow.
 
 
I will be revealing the rules as we go, starting with the Introduction...
 
INTRODUCTION
 
One of the most important aspects on the battlefield is command, control, and communication (C3).  While the command and control (C2) status with a superior is identified in Combat Mission (CM), the effects are not enforced or modeled past affecting morale.  Communication as well is represented as will be seen in this document.  
 
The intent of these rules is to simulate the effects of battlefield C3 plus the friction normally prevalent with the communication status upon a force in battle.  Communication is how units and formations are given orders; if that link does not exist then information cannot move up, down or laterally.
 
The inspiration for this set of rules comes from this outstanding thread started by MOS:96B2P on Command and Control and information sharing.  Upon reading his findings a light bulb came on and I began to think about a way to take advantage of the in-game representation of C3 in an easy to follow manner and with little record keeping by the players involved.  I recommend reading the linked thread until you fully understand the concepts within.
 
To get the full benefit of these rules the game must be played on IRON difficulty against a trusted opponent.  I recommend that both players have the same level of expectations, basically both should have a passion for representing combat in the most realistic and uncompromising fashion and be more interested in the journey rather than the destination.  In other words, the effect that is being represented should be more important than who wins or loses.
 
The intent is to keep these rules simple to use and easy to understand.  To that end I will be providing an Excel workbook that can be used to track Tasks and will automatically calculate when the player can change a Task or use Initiative.

The Command task is set in the workbook in the Force Command tab.  The options for the Command Task (Commander's Intent) are:
 
·         Probe
·         Attack
·         Assault
·         Move to Contact
·         Defend
 
Also on the Force Command Tab you set the current game time... this needs to be updated every turn.
 
This is the only place you will update the game time.  In this scenario there is only one Company, thus only one Company tab.. that is represented by the 3 Co. HQ  
 
 
 

This is a playtest of my rules for applying C3 effects in CM.. myself and The_Capt, my normal sparring partner are playing through this test scenario to get a feel for the viability of these rules.  We have just begun, I have created workbooks for each of us and we have both given our initial orders.
 
The scenario is a modified version of the Roadblock training scenario.. I added a tank platoon to the German side and adjusted some of the unit settings.  This should give a good appreciation of how the rules work.  I will be making the scenario and the workbooks for the scenario available for all to play with and follow along if you like.
 
The key to these rules are the workbooks... more on them to follow.
 
 
I will be revealing the rules as we go, starting with the Introduction...
 
INTRODUCTION
 
One of the most important aspects on the battlefield is command, control, and communication (C3).  While the command and control (C2) status with a superior is identified in Combat Mission (CM), the effects are not enforced or modeled past affecting morale.  Communication as well is represented as will be seen in this document.  
 
The intent of these rules is to simulate the effects of battlefield C3 plus the friction normally prevalent with the communication status upon a force in battle.  Communication is how units and formations are given orders; if that link does not exist then information cannot move up, down or laterally.
 
The inspiration for this set of rules comes from this outstanding thread started by MOS:96B2P on Command and Control and information sharing.  Upon reading his findings a light bulb came on and I began to think about a way to take advantage of the in-game representation of C3 in an easy to follow manner and with little record keeping by the players involved.  I recommend reading the linked thread until you fully understand the concepts within.
 
To get the full benefit of these rules the game must be played on IRON difficulty against a trusted opponent.  I recommend that both players have the same level of expectations, basically both should have a passion for representing combat in the most realistic and uncompromising fashion and be more interested in the journey rather than the destination.  In other words, the effect that is being represented should be more important than who wins or loses.
 
The intent is to keep these rules simple to use and easy to understand.  To that end I will be providing an Excel workbook that can be used to track Tasks and will automatically calculate when the player can change a Task or use Initiative.

FYI Doug and I are just starting up this game... the ongoing battle reports (not really an AAR and I refuse to use DAR) will be posted in the CMFI forum.  Should be interesting, Doug is a tournament champion and comes highly recommended so I expect this to be a hard fought battle in the mountains of Italy.  Initial pre-battle analysis and unit purchasing is going on right now.

Jason, have total respect for you, but I have to disagree here. At least for me I find the CMx2 "sweetspot" to be reinforced Company scale... that's my favorite scale to play and I can manage it just fine.  
 
I can also play Battalion-plus sized battles, i actually find that this scale seems to unfold the most realistically.  It really is a personal thing I think, everybody is different and I know many people do not like getting into the weeds like I do when I play.  You only need to read my numerous AARs to see the game played successfully at the Battalion-plus scale... I think only the CMBN BETA AAR featured a Company sized force.
 
Like Holien said though I can also only handle one or two games at a time.. which is fine by me to be honest.  Even with the CMx1 games I only played one or two at a time.

Reconnaissance

There are different types of reconnaissance:

• there is Command Push, where you have a route of advance already in mind and send patrols on ahead of your main body to discover any enemy activity along that route. This is basically the type of recon I did at the start of the Wittmann's Demise AAR.

Personally I am not normally a fan of this type of reconnaissance because except in certain situations you will not have enough information about the enemy force at the beginning of most CM scenarios to create any sort of plan excepting what you can determine from your terrain analysis.

One other thing to be aware of is that when finalizing a plan up front, without good recon and gathering some information, can tend to make you stick to your plan much longer than you probably should have... this is what happened to GaJ in our first GL BETA AAR, he was convinced, even after the battle was over that his initial plan was still sound... he should have abandoned it early in the game and changed his tack as the enemy situation changed.

• there is also Recon Pull, in this type of reconnaissance you send out a net of recon units (I sometimes use up to a third of my force in this role) in order to discover the enemy avenues of advance, or where his defenses lie, but really you want to strive to discover his intent. I use this type of recon in most battles, for examples see my two games against GaJ. The end result is to discover where the enemy is and attack where he is weakest.

• Recon by Fire - when you fire into a terrain feature that could hold an enemy unit, in the hopes that they will fire back or be forced to move, thus giving away their position. I use this all the time, especially when approaching a terrain feature that could hold enemy units.

• Terrain analysis is a form of recon as well.. actually its a part of Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield (IPB), but for this discussion I believe it counts as a form of recon as it can guide your recon effort and identify key terrain features that you might want to place extra emphasis on.

============================================================

My philosophy when approaching a CM battle (and I only play H2H) is to gather information before I make a plan. Sure I might have key avenues of approach identified, in fact you better have an idea on how you want your main body to maneuver, but I will not actually make a firm plan until I know something concrete about the enemy force and have an idea regarding his intentions. Even then any plan has to remain flexible and I am not afraid to totally change my approach depending on what new information is uncovered.

This is a chart that I created a few years ago when writing up a guide to tactics for another game. Note that you never stop conducting recon, estimating the situation, and issuing orders. These are components of the Decision Process that will not end until the battle does.

• Receive Mission: You start off by receiving your mission (this is given to you at the start of a scenario), insure you fully understand what is expected of you.
• Estimate the Situation: You then immediately begin to estimate the situation. This step, along with the reconnaissance and issue orders steps are ongoing processes that will not end until the battle does.
• Create a Tentative Plan: This plan is created from the situation estimate. This step will also get your major formation moving towards their likely jump off positions or defensive locations. These movements should be used to task organize and arrange your forces for the final orders, which will come later.
• Conduct Reconnaissance: The tentative plan, along with information gathered from the situation estimate will drive your reconnaissance. Your reconnaissance will add data to the situation estimate and will help finalize the plan.
• Finalize Plan: The information your reconnaissance gathers will be used to adjust your situation estimate and to finalize your plan. You can then task your reconnaissance with this final plan in mind.
• Issue Orders: As the situation changes you will need to change or adjust orders. Use your situation estimate and reconnaissance to give you enough time to be able to make these adjustments.


Hope this helps.

Bil

I'm currently playing a Bulge PBEM and I can say that it is going to be worth every penny.
 
Unfortunately that's all I can say about it.  

FYI, I am finishing up my own set of C2 rules (calling them COMMAND FRICTION).  Just need to do some tidying up and run through a test or two, then I'll post it all on my blog, complete with an example play through of several turns using the system.
 
I did not read Peregrine's rules in full until today.. he has some interesting concepts in there, but I think you will find that mine will be different though it appears our goals are the same.  I applaud him for what he has done, and to do it with no note taking too!. That part eluded me..  for mine I created an Excel workbook for keeping track of unit orders and to track when they can be changed.  I tried to automate as much of that as possible.
 
Here is a teaser:
 

 

Keep it up Fizou.. quite frankly I am finding your presentation superior to what's going on in the CMBN forum.

Are the two of you just playing the PzC side against one another without a third party (like is happening in noob's AARs)? Honestly, I am finding that aspect less than satisfactory and it seems to be getting in the way, though I understand the necessity in that case. An umpire is not an ideal solution if it can be avoided.

Still, you are doing a fine job and thought I should chime in.

Bil

Units in Combat Mission Shock Force drop out of radio C2 while moving on foot.

 

I can see this being the basis of a set of C2 rules for especially dedicated players... this is something I've been thinking about for a while now.. just hadn't thought of an easy way to implement it.
 
Examples:
No orders allowed to take advantage of a contact until the HQ for that formation is aware of it... if a platoon leader is aware of the enemy contact, then it can react to it and be given orders to that end (only for squads and teams in command)... but a neighboring platoon not aware, could not.   A Company HQ aware of the contact could order his Platoons and support units with that information in mind, but only if they are in command. Imagine a tank platoon moving into an ambush without spotting the enemy units lying in wait, while that enemy might be spotted by a friendly unit not in the same C2 link... they would have to keep driving on their original orders (whatever is set for them or planned) until they become aware of the enemy.
 
It would only effect reaction type orders... no more of me running my non-radio equipped kubels up the flanks to scout as I did in my Eye of the Elefant game versus GAJ.    Anything they discover could not be acted on until it was relayed to an HQ unit.
 
Hmmm... I'll have to see what I can come up with.  Any takers on playing an AAR game in this fashion?  It would take the game to a new level and would be best played in Iron mode.

I can see this being the basis of a set of C2 rules for especially dedicated players... this is something I've been thinking about for a while now.. just hadn't thought of an easy way to implement it.
 
Examples:
No orders allowed to take advantage of a contact until the HQ for that formation is aware of it... if a platoon leader is aware of the enemy contact, then it can react to it and be given orders to that end (only for squads and teams in command)... but a neighboring platoon not aware, could not.   A Company HQ aware of the contact could order his Platoons and support units with that information in mind, but only if they are in command. Imagine a tank platoon moving into an ambush without spotting the enemy units lying in wait, while that enemy might be spotted by a friendly unit not in the same C2 link... they would have to keep driving on their original orders (whatever is set for them or planned) until they become aware of the enemy.
 
It would only effect reaction type orders... no more of me running my non-radio equipped kubels up the flanks to scout as I did in my Eye of the Elefant game versus GAJ.    Anything they discover could not be acted on until it was relayed to an HQ unit.
 
Hmmm... I'll have to see what I can come up with.  Any takers on playing an AAR game in this fashion?  It would take the game to a new level and would be best played in Iron mode.

Absolutely agree Vanir.  No more roaming the battlefield listening for mortar sounds etc.  It would have to be two players who trust each other and have the same goals.. namely as realistic a portrayal of battle as is possible. Maybe The_Capt will be interested in playing this way.. I'll shoot him a line.
 
Players would really have to keep a close eye on their C2 links and plan for the use of runners etc. to relay information.  I expect games would really unfold a lot slower as well.

Yes this is an interesting and very useful test.

1st Battalion HQ is not yet aware of the Marder II.

 
Bravo Co. radios 1st Battalion with the report of the Marder.  1st Battalion HQ shows an icon 6 seconds after Bravo Co. received the report. (Again, fast)

 
4th Battalion HQ is not yet aware of the Marder II.

 
Nine minutes later 4th Battalion received no reports of the Marder. With no common higher HQ between 1st Inf. and 4th Tank Battalion the 4th never did receive any chain of command (Vertical) reports about the Marder.

 
Bravo Co. / 1st Inf. sent their XO Team over to 4th Battalion’s A/O to report.  

 
Bravo Co. / 1st Inf. XO came to within close visual C2 range (12 action spots) and reported the Marder & some friendly unit dispositions to the 4th Battalion team (Horizontal information sharing).  The 4th Bn. team is selected and displays the new contact icons.  Also note that the 4th Bn. team is in distant visual contact with HQ.

 
In a minute or two the 4th Bn. team would have reported the Marder up the 4th Bn. chain (vertical) using distant visual C2. However the contact icon for the Marder was fading badly due to age of the Marder contact information.  So I moved a radio jeep up.  The 4th Bn. Team shared the information about the Marder with the radio jeep.  The radio jeep passed the information to the recon HQ and then from there to the 4th Bn. HQ.  

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

The scouts move to report to 1st Platoon HQ which still has no contact icon for the Marder II.
  
 
The scouts emerged from the woods in close visual (the eyeball) C2 range of 1st Platoon HQ and reported the Marder II location.  When selected 1st Plt. HQ now shows a contact icon for the Marder. 

 
Bravo HQ is not yet aware of the Marder II. 

 
1st Platoon radios Bravo Company with the report of the Marder.  Bravo Co. HQ shows an icon 7 seconds after 1st Plt. received the report. (That was fast)  
 
Additional to follow.
 
 
 
 

Some interesting topics have been started about how information moves through the C2 chain both vertically (up & down the chain of command) and horizontally (directly from one team to another team).  As a result I did some experimenting with C2 & information sharing.  Below are the results and several chronological screen shots from the experiment.  If anyone can offer a correction or additional information please do. 
 
Additional useful information on the topic:
Game manual 3.01 page 62 Command & Control.
http://community.battlefront.com/topic/113787-can-somebody-answer-some-questions-on-information-sharing/
 
The distance information can be shared vertically (chain of command).
Voice C2: Up to six action spots, approximately 48 meters.
Close Visual (eyeball) C2: Up to 12 action spots, approximately 96 meters.
Distant Visual C2: As far as the unit’s line of sight.  (In the experiment I had units sharing information vertically with Distant Visual at 40 action spots, approximately 480 meters before I stopped.)
Radio C2: Entire map.  (In the WWII titles If a unit is moving on foot they will drop out of radio C2 during the movement)
 
The distance information can be shared horizontally (directly between teams).
Up to four action spots, approximately 32 meters. (Sometimes a team had to move to within 3 action spots)
 
Can information be shared horizontally between teams from different battalions?
Yes
 
Can information be shared between to different HQs that do not have a common higher HQ?
Vertically: No (With no common higher HQ there is no bridge for the information to pass over) 
Horizontally: Yes
 
I used two different US battalions on a custom made map for the experiment.  The 4th US Tank Battalion on the west (left) side of the map and the 1st US Infantry Battalion on the east (right) side.  A high ridgeline divided the two battalions.  At the beginning of the experiment no units of the 4th Battalion were in C2 with units of the 1st Battalion.  An immobilized German Marder II was used as the OpFor unit to be spotted and reported.  

 
The scouts move out to locate the German Marder II.

 
At 03:58:43 the scouts obtain a sound contact for the Marder II but they are out of C2.  

 
1st Platoon is selected but shows no icon for the Marder II.

 
Additional to follow.

akd,

I have played the game, but nowhere nearly as much as I'd like to be able to. When I get CMH sorted out, I'll be PBEMing with SLIM, too. Nor does it follow that simply because I don't have much play experience it means I can't attack game issues from the standpoint of military analysis, known real world events, veterans' accounts and other means. I have clearly stated my views many times on what should be doable in CM: everything our forebears could. See, for example what I said on pushing ATGs and the case I made thereto, as well as the carefully documented arguments I've mounted in support of on-map Indirect fire from weapons such as the leIG 18 and the sIG-33. Also, I did much the same thing which helped make the case for reining in the previously unholy abilities of tanks to instantly spot and kill infantry close assaulting, something BFC subsequently did, to the considerable benefit of game realism. And since when do you get to decree I have no right to state my views? As long as I do so within the parameters of the Forum Rules, I can and shall. Best get used to it.

Regards,

John Kettler

I think the icons in these views are a tad misleading.. I am in fact trying to keep my infantry platoons in tighter formations so the platoon HQ can respond if any of the teams gets into trouble... out of C2 from teh Platoon HQ can lead to some brittle units if they take casualties. This is far different than I would handle my forces if they were German, US, or CW... then I would have no problems with spreading them out more and putting some of my teams out on a limb. But these Soviet platoons need to maintain some cohesion to maintain good order.



Thanks... yeah Quick when moving into position... usually I would then Hunt forward (if going into a Hulldown position) but in a case like this where I don't want their movement to get interrupted, and when I want them to withdraw I am moving forward on Move, which should still allow them to spot better than fast or quick. We'll see how it works out.