Can 105 MM Artillery Knock out AFV?

[CanuckGamer]

I am playing a scenario as the Yanks where I have 105 mm artillery.  I'm wondering if it can knock out halftracks, tank destroyers like Stug III, or possibly Mark IV's.  The proof being anyone who has played a scenario where they have seen any of the AFV I mentioned knocked out by 105's.  Thanks.

[Erwin]

You talking indirect fire?  Open-topped vehicles can be knocked out by smaller HE than 105mm (at least they could in CM1) if land on top.  Am pretty sure have seen tanks with thin top armor KO'd by top direct hits as well. 

Only thinly armored vehicles could be (reliably) KO'd by direct HE fire.  There are always outlyers I imagine.

[IICptMillerII]

There are already a handful of threads here on the forum regarding the effectiveness of artillery against tanks. Mostly in the Black Sea section. Some of those threads got a bit heated, so be warned some of that might spill over here. 

My opinion is that, while artillery (105mm included) can destroy halftracks, open topped vehicles, and tanks, it is not effective. That is, the amount of shells you have to fire to score a direct hit to knock out the target is not worth it. If you have ludicrous amounts of ammo, then there is no harm in trying to take out enemy vehicles with it, but generally speaking you do not have an over abundance of ammo. Artillery is best used against infantry and fixed defenses, such as an occupied trenchline or a series of occupied buildings and the like. Point targets unaffected by shrapnel (tanks and to a lesser degree AFVs) generally aren't worth it. 

[Michael Emrys]

I once had a Sherman rendered combat ineffective, but not destroyed, by an 81mm mortar bomb that landed on the turret top. The crew panicked and bailed out. It was quite a few turns before I could get them to remount, and even then they would not drive towards the enemy or fire the guns.

Michael

[DerKommissar]

It depends how good your spotter is, how accurate the artillery is and how many rounds they have. What is the propability that you'll get in a good direct hit on that StuG 3 or Mk. 4? Odds are that most of your rounds will fall around the target and shower it with shrapnel. A direct hit is a good-night to any halftracks, and shrapnel can wound passengers and damage the wheels. This being said, I usually have time to move them away.

Have I had 105s and similar knock out tank type vehicles? Not really. Have I had 105s and similar render tank type vehicles combat-ineffective? Absolutely. In one scenario, I had a StuG bugger hiding in a hedgerow. It cut off my advance by suppressing infantry, and kept my Shermans behind. I got desperate and dumped all of my medium howitzer artillery where I last saw it. 

After 5 to 10 minutes, my troops cautiously probed toward the hedgerows. I noticed the StuG was abandoned. I had no issues moving up my Shermans and taking out any nasty infantry in there. Eventually, I had a squad sight the crew chilling in a crater and blasted them with a BAR. Was the StuG damaged, did a crew-man hit his head, did the crew just decide to desert? Could be any of them -- worked out just as well.

[MOS:96B2P]

11 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

 

13 hours ago, CanuckGamer said:

I am playing a scenario as the Yanks where I have 105 mm artillery.  I'm wondering if it can knock out halftracks, tank destroyers like Stug III, or possibly Mark IV's.  The proof being anyone who has played a scenario where they have seen any of the AFV I mentioned knocked out by 105's.  Thanks.

 

11 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

the amount of shells you have to fire to score a direct hit to knock out the target is not worth it. 

This.  About three years ago in a CMRT PBEM I had a 105mm artillery shell land on the back deck of a T-34 Tank and knock it out.  At the time I was just trying to make the TC button up so my tanks would have a spotting advantage when they pulled up to their firing positions.  The interesting part of this story is that this occurs so rarely that I remember this event from three years ago.  I have not seen it happen again except for precision munitions in CMBS.   

Artillery against open top vehicles (halftracks) can be deadly for the crew & passengers.   Having said that I would generally not use the time and resources to point target an OpFor halftrack with my artillery.  I might try to predict where the halftrack was heading to and hit that area with an area fire mission to try and catch the OpFor troops dismounting.       

[A Canadian Cat]

13 hours ago, CanuckGamer said:

I am playing a scenario as the Yanks where I have 105 mm artillery.  I'm wondering if it can knock out halftracks, tank destroyers like Stug III, or possibly Mark IV's.  The proof being anyone who has played a scenario where they have seen any of the AFV I mentioned knocked out by 105's.  Thanks.

Heck yeah. HTs are quite vulnerable but Mark Ivs and Stugs are too - but you need to score a direct hit on the tanks and assault guns. As others have said using artillery against infantry and fixed defences is where it really shines. But I also use it to deny avenues of approach to my enemy as well. You asked about taking out tanks here are two examples:

 

[CanuckGamer]

Thanks for all the replies.  I kind of figured it could knock out halftracks but wasn't sure about Stug's and Mark III's and IV's.  I assume that heavy tanks would be immune.  In the scenario I am playing, Carbide Carbide, the terrain is basically hedgerow so the Germans have been situating their tanks and the one Stug (now knocked out)  in ambush positions and really not moving them for long periods so they are easier to target.  Causing a crew to panic and abandon a tank is almost as good in addition to immobilizing it.

[Erwin]

4 minutes ago, CanuckGamer said:

Causing a crew to panic and abandon a tank is almost as good in addition to immobilizing it.

Quite right - in the game at least.  Re indirect fire, onmap 81mm mortars are better at this as more accurate.  (Of course in modern games one can use precision munitions.)

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, IanL said:

But I also use it to deny avenues of approach to my enemy as well.

This. In the real war, armor troops were usually reluctant to pass through or remain in the target area of a bombardment. Granted that the chance of getting hit was small, you still didn't want to be the unlucky joe that caught one.

Michael

[Hardradi]

On 15/03/2018 at 9:25 AM, CanuckGamer said:

I am playing a scenario as the Yanks where I have 105 mm artillery.  I'm wondering if it can knock out halftracks, tank destroyers like Stug III, or possibly Mark IV's.  The proof being anyone who has played a scenario where they have seen any of the AFV I mentioned knocked out by 105's.  Thanks.

I recently knocked out a Tiger with off board British 25 pounders against the AI. Four guns, directly on the spot where the Tiger was sitting.

There was a neat little whole just in front of the loaders hatch.

https://imgur.com/a/mUfg2

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Hardradi

[IICptMillerII]

3 hours ago, CanuckGamer said:

Causing a crew to panic and abandon a tank is almost as good in addition to immobilizing it.

Exactly. In fact, later in the war this was one of the main ways Germany was losing their heavy tanks. Many were abandoned due to mechanical/logistical issues in the field. For example, when the Elephant (Ferdinand) tank destroyer was used in Kursk, most of the vehicles had to be abandoned and destroyed in the field without ever encountering the enemy. Later in the war, due to poor training, German tank crews tended to prematurely bail out of their tanks in combat after receiving glancing hits and the like. 

You don't have to blow up a tank for it to be mission killed.

[JyriErik]

Been MANY years, but I once knocked out a tank with an 81mm mortar shot.  Once in a liftime hit.  Was laying in some mortar fire to suppress the tank so my own would have a better chance to kill it without getting shot up itself.  The tank was opened up & the mortar shell managed to fall right into the hatch.  Explosion was magnificent. 

Ah, to be young and foolish & not thinking of recording the moment.

 

Other than that one time, never destroyed a tank with artillery.  That said, have seen many crippled by artillery fire (tracks, gun, etc knocked out).

 

Jyri

[Michael Emrys]

Many moons ago in playing CMx1 I had an M5 with its hatches open because, as I thought, there was nothing within range that could hurt it. Wouldn't you know it, a mortar bomb dropped right down the TC's hatch. Pride goeth before a dead M5.

Michael

Edited March 16, 2018 by Michael Emrys

[patrykd]

In my current game my opo knocked out my Sherman by 105 art. That was direct hit on the top hull close to engine section. Lucky strike