How do you deal with concrete bunkers?

[Combatintman]

10 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

Should I take that is a yes that you have tried the M12 and yes it was effective?

Michael

If you click the link in that last post you will see a screenshot in my post there with two Shermans and an M12 vapourising a pillbox at close range. I think it was probably the most satisfying moment of that campaign.

[slysniper]

As pointed out by Rocketman, a MG crew in a bunker is prone to take losses if overwhelmed by fire.

Now, there is no one answer for all situations. But if I am going to have a concrete bunker, I want it to be the best part of my defensive line, especially if it is covering open terrain the enemy needs to cross.

Now how am I going to get that to happen, especially if I am outnumbered.

So as I mentioned , to keep the crew in good order, I hide them when they are faced against to much incoming fire. yes , they become nothing of value in such a state.

But now let me discuss the set up I like that makes them a good unit.

 

First, don't expose the men until a target is in the open and worth firing on.

second, when I do start firing from it, I expect MG gunner losses, answer, have other squads ready to sneak into the bunker before everyone dies. thus it will not be destroyed, only allowing all the crew to die will take out a bunker with small arms, keep running men into it and it cannot happen.

best way to achieve a endless supply of man, good cover on the backside to allow units to reinforce the bunker. trench is the best if available.

third, always provide supporting units to provide cover fire to the bunker to prevent enemy units from moving up and flanking it without resistance.

 

My goal generally with a bunker is to deny that terrain it is covering to the enemy, to limit that as a approach, if they must cross that terrain, all the better. in such situations.

I want to force the enemy to risk units and I allow them to close in on my position before risking anyone in my defensive line weather in or out of the bunker.

So if terrain allows it, I have just a few eyes on the enemy, I will keep scouting units from progressing by hit and run tactics

 

I am going to try and force the enemy to use a mass of suppressing fire and then move a large force forward. allowing him to feel that it is working.

Only when he has exposed himself to a point where when I move my units forward into firing positions, I hope not only to break his units, but force them to retreat through plenty of open ground to allow me more killing opportunities.

that is when the trap is hopefully engaged. I rush units to my exposed firing position or expose them from hidden cover and try to put as much fire power as possible all at once into the battle, including the bunker.

Now, generally speaking , the opponents forces will start relocating fire quickly.  Either way it does not matter, either I win the situation or I don't, but generally it quickly becomes a match of who can produce suppressive fire and with many of his units in the open, the tide can generally turn my way.

His fire, will normally start to focus on more exposed unit instead of my bunker. so the bunker becomes normally one of my strongest points of my fire group.

 

No, I would not trust my words, I have no clue as to what I am talking about.

 

First, the game really does not provide many opportunities to use bunkers correctly.

Second, many players do not use them correctly.

Third, not sure if you can even create a force in H2H play that is a good purchase, trying to use bunkers as part of the mix. I know many maps are not right for it.

 

But I will stay with my statement, a bunker in a good set up can withstand any small arms attack and not be removed from play vs MG fire. Not unless something has changed in the game since the last time I tried this and the crew will not take cover when given the hidden command

[Bulletpoint]

Also there's a big minus for using bunkers in H2H play: They sink unpredictably into the terrain, so your carefully planned field of fire will be blocked and the bunker sometimes turns out nearly useless as a result.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

'Bunker-Divots' often attract sudden rains of HE too.

[Glubokii Boy]

Slysniper, thanks for your detailed description

I'm sure a  well placed, and well supported,  bunker under the right curcomstances can be a good choise of weapon.

I fully agree with your point that " there is no one answer for all situations "

It is probably true that machineguns will not defeat a bunker in all situations...but what weapon will ?

If your bunker is well placed and well supported things like tanks or armoured cars with 20mm auto cannons will not do a great job either if your bunker is supported by a few hidden AT-guns or perhaps a TD for example.

A - well placed - and - well supported - bunker will most likely be a tricky nut to crack regardless of what weapon you decide to use...If you can not outright overwhelm IT and other supporting units  completally by massivly supperior forces.

Given the right curcomstances though i have found that using machineguns aginst them works rather well (although i have only played vs the AI).

Like has been mentioned...There are not all that many scenarios around that features bunkers so like many i have not had to deal with them all that much but when i do... machineguns are one of my prefered weapons...

Having an ISU 152 or a Brumbär or two would be welcome i'm sure but they are not always avaliable when you need them...machineguns usually are...

 

[Bulletpoint]

46 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

'Bunker-Divots' often attract sudden rains of HE too.

I think you need battleship class artillery to crack concrete bunkers. I don't think even 150mm will do the trick?

[Sgt.Squarehead]

They're usually part of larger fixed defensive positions though, so you can often guess where other elements are likely to be using the 'divots' as a starting point.....They're not game breakers at all, but I don't like them in the new games, in CM:SF & CM:A I don't really mind them as they match the terrain trenches and can be tied in quite convincingly.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[rocketman]

I learned two things from @slysniper and that is that "hide" command works in so that the don't reveal their position (but I guess the gunner still stand up) and that you can enter other units into the bunker even though there is one there already. Have to try that next time.

[slysniper]

I agreed that MG fire is likely the best thing for direct fire support. But I still suggest smoking the target and assault to the rear when possible. Not only for bunkers, but for and situation that requires you to close with the enemy to be able to overwhelm them especially over open terrain.

The game makes smoke too strong, the enemy cannot area fire like the would do in real life through it. So it allows for unhindered advances.

I find that in CMBS, when playing the Russians, its my best weapon. I can easily produce solid smoke screens with my personnel carriers that will allow me to advance to the smoke screen where I will produce another and continue to advance. Every personnel carrier has a couple of loads of smoke. I can easily advance on US troops which are generally well outnumbered and get into close range where most of the weapon advantages they have disappear.

Again, I seldom find many players using smoke correctly.

But I can tell you, training manuals have it as a basic principle for taking out targets like we are discussing here.

 

[Artofwar]

This is what I use on Bunkers 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Artofwar

[RockinHarry]

It´s also interesting to see how an AI driven force deals with pillboxes.

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/combat-mission-battle-for-normandy/cm-battles-for-normandy/cmbn-v4-mg-vp-you-enter-germany-introduction/