Ukraine > NATO vs. Russia

[Childress]

If we Humans ever make it into space it will be because of corporate exploitation. I don't see any evidence of corporations today being benevolent. They wouldn't turn a resource rich planet into Switzerland, they'd turn it into South Africa. Well, that's if they didn't engineer the equivalent of Small Pox and seeded the planet with it first. Pretty cost effective, as has been proven already.

Yes, corporations are values neutral. This is new? If you're referring to the decimation of Indian tribes via non-acquired immunity to imported diseases, yes, that indeed happened. All densely populated countries exhibit higher resistance to germs than sparsely populated ones. But the notion that Small Pox was programatically used as a bio-weapon against Native Americans was based on single incident involving the British and has been exploded as a myth. By far the most important factors in the decline of the native population were: 1-(Inadvertently) spread diseases and 2- Intermarriage (e.g., my Powhatan ancestors). Death on the battlefield was way down the list.

And, male nature being universal, the Indians were as ferociously addicted to war, violence, spoliation and environmental carelessness as their unexpected visitors. And they treated their womenfolk as chattel.

You define "healthier" as misusing the resources at your disposal and then taking the resources of others by force because... well... because you can? That's a great attitude. I believe a little Austrian Corporal had similar concepts of dealing with living space out east his way. Guess you think we should have just left well enough alone, eh?

Yes, use it or lose it. The end results can be benign or malign depending on the character of the invaders. On the negative ledger you have the Nazis, the Mongols, and, arguably, the Conquistadors. The colonization of America by the West was a net plus in my estimation. Or do you prefer, like Howard Zinn, that Europeans had remained in their over-stuffed lands and never colonized a vast, fruitful and largely empty continent? Latin/South American was densely peopled in the 15th cent. Not so N. America.

I think the Aboriginals would say it would be. And what is your definition of "better" anyway?

Health, opportunity, a decent standard of living, cohesive families. Australian aborigines or American Indians *may* have eventually, on their own, developed the polio vaccine or personal computers. Somehow one doubts it.

[dpabrams]

Hey can we get seperate Cameron film threads addressing all his film, including documentaries?

[dpabrams]

Did you know Soviet troops were not issued socks? Did you know that drunk while on duty was a serious problem. Did you know that these 2 year concripts often picked cabbage and potatoes instead of training? All claimed by Suvarov.

[John Kettler]

JonS,

You'd bitch if you were hung with a new rope! I gave a great many specifics in the last several posts, but I guess you slept through all that. If you consistently ignore the evidences I present, then you'll always have something to grouse over.

B-29s savaged by MiG-15s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-29_Superfortress

The B-29 was used in 1950–53 in the Korean War. At first, the bomber was used in normal strategic day-bombing missions, though North Korea's few strategic targets and industries were quickly reduced to rubble. More importantly, in 1950 numbers of Soviet MiG-15 "Fagot" jet fighters appeared over Korea (an aircraft specifically designed to shoot down the B-29), and after the loss of 28 aircraft, future B-29 raids were restricted to night-only missions, largely in a supply-interdiction role. Over the course of the war, B-29s flew 20,000 sorties and dropped 200,000 tonne (180,000 ton) of bombs. B-29 gunners were credited with shooting down 27 enemy aircraft.[54]

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So, what the Germans almost succeeded in doing, driving us from the daylight skies over Europe and precision bombing in World II, the North Koreans,Russians and Chinese did do over North Korea.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Childress]

JonS,

You'd bitch if you were hung with a new rope! I gave a great many specifics in the last several posts, but I guess you slept through all that. If you consistently ignore the evidences I present, then you'll always have something to grouse over.

B-29s savaged by MiG-15s

Go ahead, John, change the subject. You're continually introducing 'war' topics on the Battlefront forums.

And what's up with you and JonS? I'm trying to think of retort that has the opposite meaning to 'get a room'.

[gunnergoz]

Did you know Soviet troops were not issued socks? Did you know that drunk while on duty was a serious problem. Did you know that these 2 year concripts often picked cabbage and potatoes instead of training? All claimed by Suvarov.

1. Traditionally, Russian troops were issued long cloths to use as foot bindings, which were wrapped around the foot and ankle in a specific way. They were said to be superior to (often poorly made) socks. Don't know how long the practice lasted, but I'm fairly sure it was well into the postwar era.

Link: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?133843-Russian-foot-bindings-and-technique

2. Drunk on duty is only a problem if you define it a problem. In Russia, no problem...until you embarrass some general.

3. It is said that early satellite photo analysts looked for the telltale sign of Soviet collective farm workers whose shaved heads glinted sunlight back into space, as an indication that that year's class of conscripts had been sent off to pick up the harvest - again.

[JonS]

I see, you're doubling down.

B-29s flew 20,000 sorties and dropped 200,000 tonnes of bombs

To help us get a grip of Kettle-speak, that's your definition of "abandoned altogether" is it?

[gunnergoz]

BTW this thread makes me nostalgic for the good old days when the BFC forum was a lively, if not necessarily logical, place.

[Wicky]

MiG-15s shot down so many B-29s over North Korea that such operations had to be abandoned altogether

But operations didn't stop - they went over to night-time operations using new tech

Because of these losses (from MigG-15s), General Stratemeyer called off these raids on April 12, and diverted the B-29s to close-support raids against Chinese targets further south around the 38th parallel.

...

These raids were suspended and replaced by night attacks using B-29s equipped with SHORAN (SHOrt RANge) navigation radar. This radar was able to pinpoint small targets with great accuracy....The first SHORAN-equipped nighttime raids began in November of 1952, and continued throughout the remainder of the Korean War.

....

In April of 1952, approval was given for raids against hydroelectricity facilities at Sui-Ho, Fusen, Chosin, and Kyosen. SHORAN-equipped B-29s were to attack during the night, and USAF and Navy fighter bombers were to attack during the day. These attacks began on June 24. By the 27th, it was estimated that 90 percent of North Korean power supplies had been destroyed.

Negotiations for an armistice had been going on for nearly eighteen months. It was thought that if a series of military targets could be located and then destroyed , the Communist side could be persuaded to agree to an armistice. The first of these raids took place on July 11 against 30 different targets in Pyongyang. Similar strikes took place against Sungho-Ri, Chosin, Sindok, and Sinuiju. The nighttime bombing techniques of the B-29 crews improved, and on September 30, 45 B-29s wiped out the chemical plant at Namsan-Ri. Enemy defenses continued to take a significant toll. Between November 1952 and January 1953, five B-29s were lost to enemy night fighters. Marine Corps F3D-2 Skyknight night fighters were deployed as a countermeasure.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b29_12.html

[JonS]

Yup. You have the right to not spend money and time watching it. Just like CM haters have the right to not buy our games, not the right to tell us how to make them.

Are you sure that's what you meant to say - I'm not allowed to comment on Avatar unless I love it? :confused:

[Childress]

Which, of course, brings 1984 to mind Anybody that tries to justify McCarthyism needs their heads examined. An anti-intellectual pogrom perpetuated by a megalomanic for his own, selfish pursuit of power should never be justified. Sacrificing liberty shouldn't ever be part of the equation.

Steve

Yes, it was an unlovely era. However declassified documents from Soviet archives and Venona project decryptions of coded Soviet messages confirmed the guilt of many of McCarthy's targets.

Here's an unsavory tidbit concerning the man from Wikipedia:

He later claimed 32 missions in order to qualify for a Distinguished Flying Cross, which he received in 1952. McCarthy publicized a letter of commendation which he claimed had been signed by his commanding officer and countersigned by Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, then Chief of Naval Operations. However, it was revealed that McCarthy had written this letter himself, in his capacity as intelligence officer. A "war wound" that McCarthy made the subject of varying stories involving airplane crashes or antiaircraft fire was in fact received aboard ship during a ceremony for sailors crossing the equator for the first time.

[JonS]

Just saw this in the paper today, which seems topical.

I did wonder about a sequel at the ed of the first one. It occurred to me that any sequel would be brutally short, like maybe 5-10 minutes. Space Marines from Tyrelland Industricorp turn up with several Star Destroyers, blast the bejesus out of everything. Land. Recommence mining. Roll credits.

Not sure how he intends to spin that out into sequels though.

Oh, and something nice so I'm allowed to comment: Cameron has lovely hair.

[John Kettler]

JonS and Wicky,

Precision daylight bombing was the sine qua non of the now its own service U.S. Air Force. To be denied the skies by a bunch of Commies was both expensive and hurtful. Even all the later aerial duels over MiG Alley failed to restore the B-29 to her position of aerial dominance. She was reduced to the status of the world's largest night intruder bomber because she simply couldn't be defended in daylight against the MiG-15, which was a daylight only interceptor.

I have NOT read the history of B-29 night ops over Korea, so have nothing further to offer on this matter.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JonS]

Tripling down?!

[Michael Emrys]

TV is a different beast. They have the ability to develop characters over time and that allows them to make someone endearing or repulsive then pull a switcheroo that is not only interesting, but believable. It's very hard to do in a 2-3 hour single sitting movie where everything is new and fresh and has to be resolved by the end.

I know what you mean. Recently I had occasion to compare the 1979 BBC production of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy with the more recent movie production. For me, the BBC production wins hands down, even though the movie did have some interesting aspects. It occurred to me that a large part of the reason was that the BBC had about six hours to devote to the story while the movie had only two. The extra time gave the BBC team the leisure to develop and play with the ideas of the story and allow the characters to fully blossom out.

In fact, this is why so few great books translate well into movie format. There just isn't enough time to get the necessary groundwork in for character changes to be believable. The more complex the story's characters and events, the more likely the movie will be a horrid abortion (or stupid fun like Starship Troopers). Lord of the Rings is one of the rare exceptions I can think of.

I think that's part of the reason, but a larger part is the film makers' egos. Instead of simply translating a good story to film (and yes, I know it can be difficult to impossible to do in many cases), they succumb to the temptation to "get creative", to recast the story in some way that cripples it. I think one of the reasons the BBC production of Tinker, Tailor (and Smiley's People three years later) worked so well is that it was almost word for word faithful to the written text. One of the reasons for my disappointment with LotR is that—especially in the second and third films—Jackson & Co. wandered away from the written text and what they offered in its place was just not as good. I suspect that as a film maker Jackson had things that he wanted to do and he just threw them in willy-nilly. He seems to have failed to grasp just exactly why Tolkien wrote it as he did and not some other way.

But going back to how difficult it can be to make an acceptable let alone perfect translation from one medium to another, I have often wished that instead of announcing that a movie is based on a novel or other form of written narrative, borrowing an element here or there and producing clumsy butchery in the end, that the makers would honestly write a new story suited to the medium, and maybe offer the explanation that it was inspired by the written work. That would avoid disappointing those who have read the text and might make a better movie in its own right.

Michael

[JonS]

One of the reasons for my disappointment with LotR is that—especially in the second and third films—Jackson & Co. wandered away from the written text and what they offered in its place was just not as good. I suspect that as a film maker Jackson had things that he wanted to do and he just threw them in willy-nilly. He seems to have failed to grasp just exactly why Tolkien wrote it as he did and not some other way.

Funnily enough, I must be one of the few peope left in the western world who hasn't read LOTR. I tried, once, but got sick of page after page after page describing leaves and trees and stuff. Anyway, as a result I had few preset expectations going into the movies, and enjoyed them well enough.

On the other hand, I haven't read The Lovely Bones either but felt that he'd somehow managed to mangle the story. Again, it seemed a case of incredible special effects and big set pieces triumphing over a basic ability to tell a story.

I see that the Hobbit is being cut into three rather than two installments. I have readthis one, but it was so long ago it probably doesn't count anymore. Filming is over, so it seems like they either can't bring themselves to leave stuff on the cutting room flaw, and/or want to jam more stuff in there. Neither leaves me very optimistic about the final outcome.

Something nice so I can comment: Jackson looks great now he's keeping his weight down.

[Battlefront.com]

Are you sure that's what you meant to say - I'm not allowed to comment on Avatar unless I love it? :confused:

Not at all. I'm just saying that criticism should be tempered by the product's intended purpose. Your comments that the movie was bad enough that you were rooting for the bad guys, to me, means you probably shouldn't have watched it. Not saying you shouldn't have the right to watch it, just that you probably could have used your money and time better elsewhere.

This is why I try to adapt my expectations to whatever I think I'm about to see. That way I'm less likely to be disappointed. That's the Dane in me

Yes, it was an unlovely era. However declassified documents from Soviet archives and Venona project decryptions of coded Soviet messages confirmed the guilt of many of McCarthy's targets.

Spanish Inquisition probably got a few genuine heretics too. The militant anti-Communist actions ends didn't even come close to justifying the means. A sensible, careful counter espionage program could have done the same thing without coming so dangerously close to permanent damage to the Constitution's most important reasons for existing... individual liberty and the right to free speech.

Honestly, much of the paranoia and energy spent on fears of the Soviets were found to be largely just that. Paranoia and fear. Two things which are often caused by internal forces rather than external. Fear sells stuff and paranoia puts corrective forces into a tight corner.

As for the might makes right line of argument... long term it's not in our best interest. It simply prolongs the period of unsustainable practices. When previous empires/civilizations fell due to resource and/or cultural collapse, there was still plenty of resources for the next ones to give at shot at building a better world. We're far short of what I feel our ultimate goal should be, which is leaving the confines of this one globe and spreading out to the stars. Yet our resource window of opportunity to get there is rapidly closing with not even the hints of doing more than MAYBE visiting a second dead planet in person.

But as I said before, what is past is past and done. I am just quite sorry that so few people have bothered to look ahead to where that path is leading us.

Here's an unsavory tidbit concerning the man from Wikipedia:

He was a peach, no questions about it. Yet for some reason he rose to a level of authority vastly greater than his elected office position Constitutionally allowed. Sadly, those reasons still exist today.

Funnily enough, I must be one of the few peope left in the western world who hasn't read LOTR. I tried, once, but got sick of page after page after page describing leaves and trees and stuff. Anyway, as a result I had few preset expectations going into the movies, and enjoyed them well enough.

Same here. Tried to read them, couldn't read them. Not because I didn't have the interest or aptitude, but because I simply couldn't slog my way through the prose.

Neither leaves me very optimistic about the final outcome.

I hope so. Few Hollywood productions manage to turn out well after such horrid handling of the production.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

The extra time gave the BBC team the leisure to develop and play with the ideas of the story and allow the characters to fully blossom out.

That and not being so quick to crush creativity for the sake of ratings. Fox is a channel that's really quite odd. Some of the best shows in history were produced by them, yet they cancelled some of the best because a dumbed down show held better promise for ad ratings.

When I hear advertisers talking about the greatest show ever, I don't usually give it any thought. When I hear critics talking about the greatest show ever, I figure I better watch it quick before it gets canceled.

I think that's part of the reason, but a larger part is the film makers' egos.

Absolutely. Though on at least two rare occasions the film makers took books and made them VASTLY better as movies:

Planet of the Apes

Children of Men

Both were pompous, nearly impossible books to read that had so many reality gaps and flaws that my suspension of disbelief went out the window. Never made it more than a few chapters into Children of Men. I have no idea how that book garnered literary praise. I found it dreadfully dull.

But going back to how difficult it can be to make an acceptable let alone perfect translation from one medium to another, I have often wished that instead of announcing that a movie is based on a novel or other form of written narrative, borrowing an element here or there and producing clumsy butchery in the end, that the makers would honestly write a new story suited to the medium, and maybe offer the explanation that it was inspired by the written work. That would avoid disappointing those who have read the text and might make a better movie in its own right.

That's what Cameron did to Midworld Though it would be nice if he admitted it.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Just saw this in the paper today, which seems topical.

Indeed.

I did wonder about a sequel at the ed of the first one. It occurred to me that any sequel would be brutally short, like maybe 5-10 minutes. Space Marines from Tyrelland Industricorp turn up with several Star Destroyers, blast the bejesus out of everything. Land. Recommence mining. Roll credits.

Any notion that an intelligent species would engage in a ground war with a native, widespread population is almost completely "Fi" and almost no "Sci". Even with Humanity's primitive understanding of genetics and disease, we could probably wipe out a species through a targeted virus far easier than we could mount a massive inter-galatic ground invasion. Any space faring race would almost definitely face the same situation.

Hmmm.... let's see the options:

1. Have a couple of ships orbiting a planet dropping gunk to kill what's in your way, without any fear of retaliation, then land safely when it's all over.

2. Invest in massive armadas of ships, soldiers, weapons, etc. and engage in a very costly, very risky venture that most likely won't achieve victory and will probably diminish the value of the planet in the process.

The correct option is #1. Though I suspect the defense contractors of today would certainly tell their Congressmen and Senators to vote for #2 or they won't get reelected. Very little profit in viruses, lots in big clunky stuff that make things go boom.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Any notion that an intelligent species would engage in a ground war with a native, widespread population is almost completely "Fi" and almost no "Sci". Even with Humanity's primitive understanding of genetics and disease, we could probably wipe out a species through a targeted virus far easier than we could mount a massive inter-galatic ground invasion. Any space faring race would almost definitely face the same situation.

When the AIDS scare got underway about 30 years ago (can it have been that long?) and information about how the virus worked began to take shape it had me wondering if it had been specifically tailored to eliminate the human population. Consider:

1. Spread primarily through sexual contact, somethings humans do a lot of.

2. Alters its appearance constantly so as to make it almost impossible for the immune system to create a successful defense against it, in fact, takes over certain elements of the immune system to protect it and aid its reproduction.

I think there may have been a couple more points, but those two were the main ones I recall. Could it have been created by an ET civilization who thought the universe would be a better place without humans in it? Had me reaching for my tinfoil hat for a day or two.

Though I suspect the defense contractors of today would certainly tell their Congressmen and Senators to vote for #2 or they won't get reelected. Very little profit in viruses, lots in big clunky stuff that make things go boom.

Besides, things that go boom are so much more fun to play with. But they have to be seen to go boom. During the latter stages of the war with Japan, someone got the bright idea of using B-29s to drop mines in the coastal waters of the country instead of doing the usual high altitude industrial bombing. The crews hated these missions because they didn't get to see anything go boom, even though the loss rate on mining missions was lower and as postwar surveys showed, the mining had a more profound effect on the Japanese economy than the industrial bombing.

Michael

[JonS]

you probably could have used your money and time better elsewhere.

Ah, well, I watched it on a borrowed DVD

[Battlefront.com]

When the AIDS scare got underway about 30 years ago (can it have been that long?) and information about how the virus worked began to take shape it had me wondering if it had been specifically tailored to eliminate the human population.

One thing I find hilarious (in a sad, weeping sort of way) is all the people that believe in Intelligent Design don't think, for a second, that something is trying to give us Humans a wee bit of a hint with things like AIDS, SARS, H1N1, West Nile, and the latest range of drug resistant bacterias that have WHO and CDC officials losing sleep over. In my view it's either Intelligent Design, Mother Nature, or some alien race that makes PITA and Greenpeace look tame by comparison. Whatever it is, I think I should prepare a bunker with 0.01 micron filtered air

I also find it hilarious (also in a sad, weeping sort of way) that all the paranoid, angry, fearful people that managed to put the McCarthy's of this world into positions of power are asleep at the switch. Red Menace, apparently, had better PR reps.

Ah, well, I watched it on a borrowed DVD

Heh. Well, for me I went to see it in 3D IMAX. I figured the visual experience alone would be worth it, even if I had headphones on and couldn't hear the dialog. It was.

Steve

[cool breeze]

Hey Steve, while we are on the subject, can we please get graphics like Avatar for CM?! I mean if they can do it surely you guys must be able too right? ;) You guys just need to optimize...... lol Does anybody else want to hear Michael E.'s analysis about the LoTRs movies messing up the books meaning for the second and 3rd movies/books? Its one of my favorite books and movies but I haven't analyzed em against each other.

[Battlefront.com]

Sure, we'll get right on that

Steve

[Erwin]

In terms of the likeliest next RL war I'd vote for China vs India. They both have regional interests that overlap big time. One of the few good decisions made by "W" was to share nuke technology with India so as to create a counter-balance in China's backyard.