Ammo, distribution, caliber, friendly fire

[Rangoon]

Here are some questions that have been coming up frequently while I play, and am starting to do my own testing on, but I'm guessing someone here can rattle off a few good answers that would save a lot of time. I am playing U.S. now, and using version 1.32

1. do squads ever share ammo with other squads in the same platoon (and/or battalion)? If so, this is done like with the "medic" action where you just place them next to each other?

2. do squads ever share ammo with other squads in different platoons (and/or battalions)? If so, this is done like with the "medic" action where you just place them next to each other?

3. can squads enter and acquire weapons/ammo from vehicles in different platoons (and/or battalions)? Or only within their own platoon?

4. does the M107 have its own infinite ammo supply since there is no way of acquiring or monitoring .50 cal ammo?

5. when I split a squad into two units, why does the 5.56mm ammo indicator show an increase in ammo for one of the squads? Is this showing an actual number of rounds? Or a percentage of an "optimal" amount? I suppose it's because one team just went from 9 to 5 members, and the other went from 9 members to 4 (so they will have fewer rounds with them).

6. does the second vertical bar from the left in the ammo monitoring area for the squad (lower left area of HUD, next to suppression/C2 indicator) mean all SAW/MG ammo or is it ONLY for 7.62mm ammo like for M240B? If it's only for 7.62mm (assuming U.S. of course), why do some squads start out with any of this ammo whatsoever? I'm talking about basic infantry squads which use the M249 and M4A1. If there is no MMG, why do they carry the ammo? Can they share it as I asked above?

7. I have read varying accounts of what munitions will cause friendly fire. I think basically anything can cause friendly suppression, but only some will cause damage. My understanding is that basically any vehicle-mounted guns will cause FF. Right? But for infantry, will 7.62mm cause FF? Will rifle grenades cause FF? Will M249 5.56mm?

Thanks!

[Field Marshal Blücher]

1. do squads ever share ammo with other squads in the same platoon (and/or battalion)? If so, this is done like with the "medic" action where you just place them next to each other?

Yes, and not quite. Ammo sharing is just that, sharing. It's not "ammo giving" or "ammo redistribution." What happens is that two squads from any formation that are close enough (I think they need to be within two action spots) will let the other team use their ammo for weapons that are dry. But they won't give them their ammo on a permanent basis--the moment you move the squads apart, the squad with no ammo left for certain weapons remains with no ammo left for those weapons.

Let me give you an example. You have two US Army MG teams (from any unit, doesn't need to be the same unit) with M240Gs and M4s. Say one team runs out of 7.62mm ammo (and ONLY 7.62mm ammo, the guys with M4s have plenty of 5.56 available. Up until that point, no ammo sharing happens. When one team runs out of 7.62, if the other team is within two action spots, the other team will basically hand the empty team a magazine of 7.62 ammo, with which it will reload its weapon and continue firing. Since the guys with M4s still have ammo, no 5.56mm ammo is exchanged. If the previously empty MG team burns through that magazine, the other MG team will give them another magazine, and so on, until the second team also runs out of 7.62 or the teams move apart from each other.

2. do squads ever share ammo with other squads in different platoons (and/or battalions)? If so, this is done like with the "medic" action where you just place them next to each other?

Think I answered this above.

3. can squads enter and acquire weapons/ammo from vehicles in different platoons (and/or battalions)? Or only within their own platoon?

Yes, they can acquire weapons and ammo from everyone.

4. does the M107 have its own infinite ammo supply since there is no way of acquiring or monitoring .50 cal ammo?

Nope! It, uh, runs out of ammo.

5. when I split a squad into two units, why does the 5.56mm ammo indicator show an increase in ammo for one of the squads? Is this showing an actual number of rounds? Or a percentage of an "optimal" amount? I suppose it's because one team just went from 9 to 5 members, and the other went from 9 members to 4 (so they will have fewer rounds with them).

The ammo indicator indicates how much ammo they have relative to some standard amount. You'll see that two-man teams in intense combat burn through their ammo bars much more quickly than 13-man Marine squads in light combat because it represents a proportion rather than an absolute value.

6. does the second vertical bar from the left in the ammo monitoring area for the squad (lower left area of HUD, next to suppression/C2 indicator) mean all SAW/MG ammo or is it ONLY for 7.62mm ammo like for M240B? If it's only for 7.62mm (assuming U.S. of course), why do some squads start out with any of this ammo whatsoever? I'm talking about basic infantry squads which use the M249 and M4A1. If there is no MMG, why do they carry the ammo? Can they share it as I asked above?

This I'm not sure about. REALLY glad the interface was changed for CMBN in this regard.

7. I have read varying accounts of what munitions will cause friendly fire. I think basically anything can cause friendly suppression, but only some will cause damage. My understanding is that basically any vehicle-mounted guns will cause FF. Right? But for infantry, will 7.62mm cause FF? Will rifle grenades cause FF? Will M249 5.56mm?

Only explosive ordnance causes FF. Rifle grenades MIGHT cause FF, but I haven't seen that happen. No 7.62 or 5.56mm will cause FF, but they will cause FS.

Thanks!

You're welcome!

-FMB

[Erwin]

I learned something as I thought that to share ammo, units had to be from the same formation. Or is that only in CMBN? Gets confusing with all these versions now.

Also, when inf throws grenades (say in an assault) can that cause FF to other too close units?

Why is it that it is impossible for non crews to enter some vehicles and acquire ammo stocks that are listed therein as aquirable? (I forget which vehicles this applies to, but I recall it happening for at least a couple.)

Thanks for all your work...

[Dietrich]

6. does the second vertical bar from the left in the ammo monitoring area for the squad (lower left area of HUD, next to suppression/C2 indicator) mean all SAW/MG ammo or is it ONLY for 7.62mm ammo like for M240B? If it's only for 7.62mm (assuming U.S. of course), why do some squads start out with any of this ammo whatsoever? I'm talking about basic infantry squads which use the M249 and M4A1.

The two left ammo bars indicate "light" and "medium" ammo respectively. What particular ammo constitutes "light" or "medium" depends on the particular unit. For instance, a US Army rifle squad with M4s and M249s (all 5.56 NATO weapons) will show ammo in the first bar but none in the second. A US Army MMG team with an M240B and a few M4s will show ammo in the first bar and the second, which represents 7.62 NATO. Conversely, a US Army sniper team with an M107 and a few M4s will also show ammo in both bars, but in this case the second ammo bar represents .50 BMG rather than 7.62 NATO.

The M4A1 (semi-auto/full-auto) isn't in CMSF, just the M4 (semi-auto/3-round-burst).

[Rangoon]

The two left ammo bars indicate "light" and "medium" ammo respectively. What particular ammo constitutes "light" or "medium" depends on the particular unit. For instance, a US Army rifle squad with M4s and M249s (all 5.56 NATO weapons) will show ammo in the first bar but none in the second. A US Army MMG team with an M240B and a few M4s will show ammo in the first bar and the second, which represents 7.62 NATO. Conversely, a US Army sniper team with an M107 and a few M4s will also show ammo in both bars, but in this case the second ammo bar represents .50 BMG rather than 7.62 NATO.

Excellent, thank you.

The M4A1 (semi-auto/full-auto) isn't in CMSF, just the M4 (semi-auto/3-round-burst).

Hm, the only one mentioned in the v. 1.20 game manual (which is the most up-to-date for CMSF without any expansions) is the M4A1. But I'll take your word for it.

Yes, and not quite. Ammo sharing is just that, sharing. It's not "ammo giving" or "ammo redistribution." What happens is that two squads from any formation that are close enough (I think they need to be within two action spots) will let the other team use their ammo for weapons that are dry. But they won't give them their ammo on a permanent basis--the moment you move the squads apart, the squad with no ammo left for certain weapons remains with no ammo left for those weapons.

Great, thank you. Will this also happen if a squad is near a vehicle which contains ammo? Will the gunner chuck some ammo down to them? Or does a squad HAVE TO enter the vehicle to acquire it?

Also, will this happen between two vehicles? If one stryker runs out of 12.7mm, will they be able to have it "shared" from an adjacent one?

Only explosive ordnance causes FF. Rifle grenades MIGHT cause FF, but I haven't seen that happen. No 7.62 or 5.56mm will cause FF, but they will cause FS.

Am I correct that vehicle weapons including the 12.7mm MGs will cause FF?

Why is it that it is impossible for non crews to enter some vehicles and acquire ammo stocks that are listed therein as aquirable? (I forget which vehicles this applies to, but I recall it happening for at least a couple.)

I could have sworn I've seen this behavior, too. Does this happen? Or was I not seeing it correctly? I tried to enter a vehicle with an infantry squad and was denied. Or so I recall.

[Erwin]

Yes, some vehicles that contain ammo that looks like it can be acquired make it impossible to do so since non-crew cannot enter the vehicle.

I bow to Beta Testers et al who must know a lot more that I do, but I do not think that vehicles can ever share ammo.

Re FF, I had the impression that even inf weapons could cause FF, so I always switch from TARGET to TARGET LIGHT when firing at a (say) building that another inf unit is assaulting/entering. If FF is not going to happen in that situation, then that is very interesting. But, with TARGET I wonder what effect grenades have on the 2nd squad.

I do know that the BLAST command (with powerful demo charges) will never cause FF no matter how close friendly troops are. It's just another of those irrational abstractions of the CM system.

The problem is that there are so many "exceptions to the rule" and "weird phenomena" exhibited by CM2 games that are not addressed by the (imo inadequate) manuals that one is never sure if one is experiencing or observing a deliberate design choice, a bug, or a necessary abstraction.

But, after all, these are only entertainment games, albeit extraordinarily good. So, it's completely unreasonable to expect a perfect simulation of reality. And that's a good thing since reality is 99+% of the time, not fun at all.

[stikkypixie]

Everything less that .50 cal will not cause friendly fire, regardless of using target or target light. The only difference (in terms of small arms at least) between target and target light is the volume of fire. .50 causes friendly casualties, so be careful!

[Erwin]

Blucher mentioned that rifle grenades could cause FF. I wondered about hand thrown grenades. Or, that all treated like demo charges?

In addition, when in TARGET mode squads can fire rockets in these situations as well.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Hm, the only one mentioned in the v. 1.20 game manual (which is the most up-to-date for CMSF without any expansions) is the M4A1. But I'll take your word for it.

I am also pretty sure it's the M4A1.

Great, thank you. Will this also happen if a squad is near a vehicle which contains ammo? Will the gunner chuck some ammo down to them? Or does a squad HAVE TO enter the vehicle to acquire it?

Not sure about this. I think you may have to enter the vehicle, but you should be able to determine this pretty quickly with a ~5 min test.

Also, will this happen between two vehicles? If one stryker runs out of 12.7mm, will they be able to have it "shared" from an adjacent one?

Pretty sure this doesn't happen, but I'm not 100% positive.

Am I correct that vehicle weapons including the 12.7mm MGs will cause FF?

No. No non-explosive weapon EVER causes FF.

I think. According to stikkypixie I'm wrong, which is a possibility. Then again, I've never hit my own troops with .50 shots.

I've never seen it happen and I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to happen.

[stikkypixie]

I am also pretty sure it's the M4A1.

Not sure about this. I think you may have to enter the vehicle, but you should be able to determine this pretty quickly with a ~5 min test.

Pretty sure this doesn't happen, but I'm not 100% positive.

No. No non-explosive weapon EVER causes FF.

I think. According to stikkypixie I'm wrong, which is a possibility. Then again, I've never hit my own troops with .50 shots.

I've never seen it happen and I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to happen.

I will test it when I get home, but I'm pretty sure I've even suffered casualties from ricochets of .50 cal let alone a full hit!

[stikkypixie]

Jup, .50 definitely causes friendly casualties.

[Sgt Joch]

pretty much any weapon you set to Area Fire can cause casualties to friendly troops if they are too close.

[stikkypixie]

pretty much any weapon you set to Area Fire can cause casualties to friendly troops if they are too close.

Are you sure about this? I have unloaded thousands of rounds of M4A1 on friendly troops and not one casualty.

[Sgt Joch]

Are you sure about this? I have unloaded thousands of rounds of M4A1 on friendly troops and not one casualty.

area fire or direct fire?

There may be an exception for small arms fire, but I seem to recall hurting friendly troops with grenades, HMG fire, AFV main gun when set to area fire.

[stikkypixie]

area fire or direct fire?

There may be an exception for small arms fire, but I seem to recall hurting friendly troops with grenades, HMG fire, AFV main gun when set to area fire.

Both. Seriously, I think Steve even said so. No friendly fire. Exceptions are anything equal or bigger than .50 cal.

[Erwin]

Well, all we have to do is check the manual.

Oh, wait...

Doh!

[Dietrich]

Hm, the only one mentioned in the v. 1.20 game manual (which is the most up-to-date for CMSF without any expansions) is the M4A1. But I'll take your word for it.

I am also pretty sure it's the M4A1.

Most-up-to-date, yes, but incorrect. Check the in-game tooltips—US Army riflemen have only M4s.

A note from the forum's resident currently-serving 3ID veteran:

The M4.

It's an M4 not an M4A1. The only people sporting an M4A1 are SF and the Rangers, and by Rangers I mean the guys assigned to 75th Ranger Regt, not the regular guys who went to the school, got the tab and returned to their home unit. The rest of us regular Army types have the M4.

An interesting bit I read just the other day in Special Operations Forces in Iraq by Leigh Neville (italics mine):

Intriguingly, the [uS Army Asymmetric Warfare Group] have been forced to hand back their beloved [Heckler & Koch HK416s] due to an Army mandate that they must carry regular M4s as part of their role. A source within AWG explained, "As far as 416s, they've had to turn them in, but kept their Glock 19s. They've also been given the M4 with three-round burst. They hate it."

Also, see the v1.11 features list:

M4A1 rifle renamed to M4.

[Mord]

More info here;

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=90069&highlight=Mord

Mord.

[hoolaman]

In summary, launched grenades cause casualties but hand grenades do not. Gun fire 0.50 and above causes casualties but less than 0.50 does not.

[Mord]

Yeah, I think it's the close proximity in which hand thrown grenades are used (storming buildings and the like) that keeps them from hurting Friendlies...a little abstraction to help with the action spot/bunched up/no entry formations, nature of the infantry fighting. Plus we have no hand to hand combat so point blank fire and lots of grenades take it's place...which would kill a lot of your own dudes if the abstraction wasn't in place.

Mord.