MG34/42 - commonly fired from the hip or shoulder standing?

[Destraex1]

I have read that German doctrine in ww2, at least late in the war when they had two LMGs per squad allowed for one LMG to be fired on the move from hip or shoulder without resting on anything.

The problem is I cannot imagine this being too accurate and was wondering whether it was supposed to actually kill anybody or just suppress on the assault to get the LMG in position. In addition to this other things I have read seem to suggest that the gun (mg34/42) was held back and used to cover for as long as possible. Either covering flanks or directing fire ahead of troops going in for the final stages of assault. The 34 may have been the spearhead of the formation but I do not think it was intended to go in firing from the hip.

Was it also German doctrine to assault buildings with an LMG or get into close combat situations with it?

I know with later western doctrine where rifles were replaced with automatic rifles that the LMG or GPMG were mainly kept away from "going right in" with assaults where possible, rather they would support from prone once a good position was found, and even later than that we again have an assault gunner with the rifles and a gunner (usually both 5.56 light) as fire support.

However I am talking about the big heavy bulky ww2 mg34 and 42. You would need a strong man to carry out an assault with what amounts to an GPMG and still be steady enough to fire accurately from the hip or shoulder with it.

I ask because of a Red Orchestra (but still applies to combat mission BN and how I will use it in this game) kind of argument I am having with a mate. He reckons that the LMG should be easy to use from the hip in all sorts of situations for accurately killing foes. I say you would avoid it and rest the gun on bipod or terrain where ever possible. He says its the most common thing in the world to use the mg34/42 from the hip or shoulder. I say it would be rarer and that red orchestra got it right by giving it kick to illustrate that most people would be exhausted on assault and have trouble hip firing such a powerfull weapon.

Unless you are arnie and have the stamina in battle of a horse I would think it is best avoided. Whats the point of having all of that fire power if your going to waste yourself on a bayonet/knife assault? Your such a significant % of the german squads firepower in ww2 that you really want to get into a good position and do some damage\keep heads down while the riflemen do the assaulting.

Another point of course is the link (unless you have a drum) and reload problems. Reloading from the hip aint the easiest. You really need to rest on something.

Everybody wants to be a heroe with a machine gun. But in reality I think its best used to suppress and support. Not assault. Red orchestra is right to encourage that. In some cases though I acknowledge that the germans used the mg34/42 in assault and fired on the move. But I think it wastefull and only used due to the low volume of fire their rifles put out and the lack of any Bren or BAR type weapon that would more properly be described as an LMG.... and not what the mg34.42 really is which is a GPMG used in the LMG role.

You may use the 34/42 from the hip to get from A to B, in most cases though I would have thought it more common to bolt from A to B before setting up again.

This friend on mine argues that if he had 7 seconds to fire at escaping enemy he would not bother dropping to the ground and firing even from an already deployed bipod. I say i would drop in two or three seconds and more easily take the enemy down. Standing up and preparing for the recoil would take almost the same time. I cannot imagine it would have even been that comfortable for the firer to grab the bipod with a rag, I think that the user unless a big man would be rather stretched.... perhaps a strap especially tethered for an assault would fix this. But that would prevent going prone too easily rending it useless in most instances where you wanted to be able to go prone??

I guess the question I am asking those in the know here is.

Was it common and was it effective to fire and mg34/42 from the hip and shoulder?

Was it out of necessity or a really effective way to fire in assault?

Where was the gunner placed during a house assault/street fighting?

Why if it was so easy and accurate to fire from the hip did gunners use their number 2's shoulder for support in a pinch?

[Vark]

Two videos that might help, the first shows that their was a proscribed procedure, suggesting the method was used in combat

The second video, although showing an MG-3 with lower ROF, shows that you do not have to be a Rambo to shoot it from the shoulder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebJOT95Gh3k&feature=related

Normal doctrine was to use the MG's to shoot the assault section onto the objective, but in close terrain or a fast moving assault (note the term sturmfeuer ) it certainly could be shoulder fired. I certainly know of photos and footage showing German HMG teams in Kharkov, who are using the MG without the tripod. Can this be simulated in CMBN?

[winkelried]

Another way to fire the LMG at 02:57

[YankeeDog]

Normal doctrine was to use the MG's to shoot the assault section onto the objective, but in close terrain or a fast moving assault (note the term sturmfeuer ) it certainly could be shoulder fired. I certainly know of photos and footage showing German HMG teams in Kharkov, who are using the MG without the tripod. Can this be simulated in CMBN?

AIUI, the hip-firing position with the forward hand gripping the bipod for support was the more proper position for firing the MG 34/42 from an unsupported, standing position. But in any event, the German gunners in the game will quite frequently fire the MG from a standing or kneeling position, especially if on the move. It's horribly inaccurate when fired this way, but at close range 1200rpm means you don't have to be very accurate.

I suspect the reason that the "Sturmfeuer" animation in the game shows firing the MG42 from the shoulder is so that the same animation can be used as is used for rifles. I've never seen any weapon fired from the hip in CMBN, so I suspect an animation like this does not exist.

Worth noting that the U.S. Army and Marines also trained MG gunners to fire the M1919A4, and even the water-cooled M1917, from the hip.

[Vark]

Yankee Dog, sorry not making myself clear about my last point. Do German HMG crews have the ability to use their MG as an LMG without the tripod? Also, does anyone know how common was the Tamiya and wargames miniatures favourite stance, No2 stooped over, holding bipod, barrel braced on back, whilst gunner blazes away?

[Destraex1]

The question is was it the preferred method.... I would have thought most people would prefer to drop and setup prone rather than fire exposed. In house to house I cannot imagine you want a gunner up front... too slow to turn and barrel too long.

That video shows how damned carefull the mg42 gunner had to be firing from the hip in hero mode. The second video that gent struggles especially in.

[Vark]

I would suggest that an LMG team would use its bipod to support the assault section, but on occasions the close range assault technique could be used to give an extra boost to suppression, when required, or if ambushed.

[Destraex1]

The HMG could be detached from its bipod and used for extra firepower up front with the infantry.

The over the shoulder approach was more common, but again I would not say ideal.

[YankeeDog]

Yankee Dog, sorry not making myself clear about my last point. Do German HMG crews have the ability to use their MG as an LMG without the tripod? Also, does anyone know how common was the Tamiya and wargames miniatures favourite stance, No2 stooped over, holding bipod, barrel braced on back, whilst gunner blazes away?

Yes; firing as an LMG is what the HMG34/42 teams are doing when they fire in the "semi-deployed" state.

As for how common it was to fire stabilizing the weapon on the back of the No. 2, I don't really know, but I suspect not very. I think the popular impression of this position has more to do with the fact that there's a famous photograph of it, rather than any actual evidence of this firing position being commonly used. Looks like a great way to lose both the gunner and the No. 2 go a single shot, if you ask me...

. The HMG could be detached from it's bipod to support the assault section...

I think you mean tripod; from what I have seen and read, the bipod on the MG 34/42 was almost never removed when being used by infantry. Even when mounting it on the heavy tripod the bipod was usually retained, folded against the barrel. When an HMG team was on the move, the gunner carried the MG with bipod, and another team member carried the heavy tripod. This of course meant that the gunner could immediately drop and use the gun with the bipod, if necessary. All this seems to be modeled in CMBN very nicely.

As for assaulting with the MG42, perhaps someone with a German small-unit tactic reference handy could provide a definitive answer, but I can't imagine it was common practice to lead with the squad MG on point in any situation, and especially in a close terrain assault. Far too valuable a weapon to risk this way, and far too cumbersome for the role. This is what the squad MP40 would be used for. Worth noting that even modern U.S. Infantry with the much more compact and agile M249 SAW do not generally lead with this weapon when on the move or assaulting.

[Vark]

IIRC the German squad lead with the LMG and sergeant, whose job was to make sure the best possible fire position was found for the team. He would either remain with the gun team to direct fire of join the assault team. As for FIBUA, I doubt the gun teams led, as you said too risky for the most valuable weapon system.

[MikeyD]

I liked that caption that said gunner was able to make aimed burst 'to 70 yards'. 70 yards? An MP40 would do the same job with considerably less bother. This looks like a good technique for gunning down French hostages who are standing with their hands on their head against a nearby wall. Otherwise, I'm not convinced of its utility.

[winkelried]

Otherwise, I'm not convinced of its utility.

it looked nice in the rambo movies?

[Vark]

A 9mm round has nowhere near the suppressive effect of a 7.92 high velocity one, or the impact and destructive capability against hard targets and the ROF of the MP 40 is paltry versus the MG 34-42. I think gunning down French hostages would be with the bipod, the assault stance, with the short range, suggests hosing down a stubborn target (embrasure, fortified building etc).

[gunnulf]

While technically possible to fire it standing from the hip then tactically if you make a habit of standing up in the open 50m away from the enemy your own life expectancy would probably be quite limited. It takes 1 second to get on your beltbuckle and get more accurate fire down and better avoid incoming. The only real utility of the assault fire mode might be room clearance if no other automatic weapons available or possibly in a suprise short range encounter to get a few rounds down and startle the enemy to give you a couple seconds to find a better fire position. IMHO.

[Destraex1]

Yes; firing as an LMG is what the HMG34/42 teams are doing when they fire in the "semi-deployed" state.

As for how common it was to fire stabilizing the weapon on the back of the No. 2, I don't really know, but I suspect not very. I think the popular impression of this position has more to do with the fact that there's a famous photograph of it, rather than any actual evidence of this firing position being commonly used. Looks like a great way to lose both the gunner and the No. 2 go a single shot, if you ask me...

I think you mean tripod; from what I have seen and read, the bipod on the MG 34/42 was almost never removed when being used by infantry. Even when mounting it on the heavy tripod the bipod was usually retained, folded against the barrel. When an HMG team was on the move, the gunner carried the MG with bipod, and another team member carried the heavy tripod. This of course meant that the gunner could immediately drop and use the gun with the bipod, if necessary. All this seems to be modeled in CMBN very nicely.

As for assaulting with the MG42, perhaps someone with a German small-unit tactic reference handy could provide a definitive answer, but I can't imagine it was common practice to lead with the squad MG on point in any situation, and especially in a close terrain assault. Far too valuable a weapon to risk this way, and far too cumbersome for the role. This is what the squad MP40 would be used for. Worth noting that even modern U.S. Infantry with the much more compact and agile M249 SAW do not generally lead with this weapon when on the move or assaulting.

Yes sorry I did mean tripod

[LongLeftFlank]

Worth noting that even modern U.S. Infantry with the much more compact and agile M249 SAW do not generally lead with this weapon when on the move or assaulting.

A Navy SEAL friend of mine noted that when moving in hostile jungle (early '80s -- Lebanon, Guatemala and the Philippines were all he would admit to), his squad followed the British SAS/SBS tactic of putting one of its one of its 2 SAWs in the point section (3 men out of 12). Logic was that a guerrilla ambush would tend to try to hit the main body instead, leaving their position exposed to enfilading fire or a flank counterattack from the point. This theory was never put to the test though; they always made it their business to be the ambushers, not the ambushed.

[Michael Emrys]

I've seen photos of the MG42 with a shoulder strap allowing it to comfortably carried at the hip. I don't know how commonly it was used that way as most photos don't show it in use. But it would be useful in situations where the squad was advancing en masse as it would allow a quick response to any sighting. But I'm guessing that the gunner would not remain standing if they were receiving fire or expecting to do to. After letting off one quick burst, he would have dropped to the ground like a sensible bloke and used the bipod like he had be taught back in infantry school.

Michael

[RockinHarry]

Yankee Dog, sorry not making myself clear about my last point. Do German HMG crews have the ability to use their MG as an LMG without the tripod? Also, does anyone know how common was the Tamiya and wargames miniatures favourite stance, No2 stooped over, holding bipod, barrel braced on back, whilst gunner blazes away?

From official german field regulations, firing over No2s shoulder was a quick expedient to engage low flying enemy aircraft. Otherwise it´s not mentioned anywhere, but one can assume that it was also applied in other situations, when quick engaging targets was required and no other rest for the gunner available. (....LMG team in wheat field, engaging russian cavalry few hundred meters away and such).

[Sublime]

HMG crews can fire the MG undeployed. you'll see it as 'semi deployed' and you'll notice their bursts are much more inaccurate, you can even notice the tracers begin to climb with recoil.

I've seen many pictures or film of MG42s being fire planted on someones shoulder. Especially the famous footage from market garden (you can also see a kid firing on propped up boxes that are wobbly)

I expect it was done a good number of times...

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of an old film ('from here to eternity'?) has Burt Lancaster firing a .30 cal Browning from the hip. And of course Rambo and his M60 machinegun. And most recently footage of a Libyan rebel spraying-and-praying his PKM from the hip. So it seems like a fairly common firing stance for a mmg if you're a 'manly man' and not particularly intent on hitting anything.

[womble]

...Rambo and his M60 machinegun...

I love that scene, in a cheesy kinda way. Especially the way, once he's fired off the fifteen or so rounds in the incredibly short belt of ammo he starts running around with, he just seems to pull the belt back out to get more bullets... Or was that Arnie in Commando?

[Vark]

I love the actor in Full Metal Jacket who played the M-60 gunner, he resorts to shaking the weapon after he cannot reload it after shooting of his ammo belt!

[Michael Emrys]

I'm reminded of an old film ('from here to eternity'?) has Burt Lancaster firing a .30 cal Browning from the hip. And of course Rambo and his M60 machinegun. And most recently footage of a Libyan rebel spraying-and-praying his PKM from the hip. So it seems like a fairly common firing stance for a mmg if you're a 'manly man' and not particularly intent on hitting anything.

I think Victor McLaglen was the first movie actor to pull that off in one of his movies from the '30s or '40s.

Michael

[JasonC]

RockinHarry said in part "...LMG team in wheat field"

This. The only reason to do it is when you can't see a blasted thing lying down to use the bipod. Trust me though, that comes up *a lot*...

[JonS]

This is my favourite extemporised all-arms air-defence firing postion: