skelley Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Time and time again I have panzershrecks fire at infantry 200m away in houses and give away there position only to be killed. This needs to be fixed. Are they anti-infantry or anti-tank? They need to be armor only unless the enemy is right on top of them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Use cover arcs and the "Hide" command to take control of your AT teams, and be smart with the way you move them (hunt and slow commands, with pauses at times for a listening halt and rest). It's far from perfect, but you can hunt very well with AT teams and remain undetected if you manage them properly. Keep the arc tiny at first until you get them into position to watch for a target. Keep them on hide. Then when you want them to be active, set the arc to no more than 100m. Yes, they may shoot at infantry in that range, but if they're spotted they need to be able to shoot in self-defense. Hiding will cut down on that, but also means they will see less and be less willing to shoot at anything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG TOW Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Not exactly the same, but related topic. Noticed this with bazooka soldiers in whole squads. One may want the squad to actually fire at and suppress the building, And prefer the bazooka soldier to use his rifle. But it is treated as a hardpoint and the bazooka is used first. I would think the Target Light command may remedy this? But haven't tested yet. Maybe someone else knows. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Noticed this with bazooka soldiers in whole squads. One may want the squad to actually fire at and suppress the building, And prefer the bazooka soldier to use his rifle. But it is treated as a hardpoint and the bazooka is used first. I would think the Target Light command may remedy this? But haven't tested yet. Maybe someone else knows. Yes, the Target Light command is the way to stop your troops using up their zook rounds and rifle grenades on unsuitable targets. Or split your AT team off from the get-go; they generally have the zook and the M7, so you can use the Target order with gay abandon. I tried just making myself use "Target Light" as my default target command, but it just wouldn't stick... Maybe I should have remapped it. Another danger from zooks and RGs in your squads is when you're shooting another squad onto a target; small arms fire won't cause any friendly casualties, beyond a little suppression, but HE rounds will. This is also true of close range area fire with infantry HE: the firing unit can inflict damage and suppression on itself with RGs and AT Rockets; they're immune to their own hand grenades. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poesel Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Sometimes those trigger-happy teams work for your advantage: I wanted to redeploy a schreck team from one side to the other. While they were running down the road, they stopped and fired a round on a Sherman several hundreds of meters away. Of course they missed. I never thought there would be a LOS to that tank. He was behind several lines of trees down in a valley. So next turn I move my Panther in the exact same spot and he didn't miss... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 I appreciate the responses butI understand about cover arcs.... I'm not talking about my handling of shrecks I'm talking about the AI's handling of them. Why can't they work the way they did in CMX1. I don't know how many times in CMX1 that I thought I had an area secured enough with infantry and brought up armor that gets killed by an unseen shreck in a small wooded area. That was all AI.... now the AI is as dumb as a bag of hammers. I know its a different game than CMX1 so please don't start in on that. The fact remains they worked in CMX1 and they don't now unless you control them. Let me clearly explain the situation. In a scenario I made off of a QB City Map. I gave the defending Germans a bunch of shrecks and in the AI gave them a 150m ambush. First turn everyone of them in range opened up at about 250-325m on the HMGs I had in buildings(and a jeep I had mistakenly left in view of enemy). Not all the shrecks were killed outright but I knew exactly where they were and could easily avoid a suppress them. Hell, just about every enemy infantry squad was spotted in the first turn... but that's another issue. Also all ATGs in view of my setup zone opened up on the MGs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wego McPbem Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 In my experience the tacai considers infantry in buildings a prime target for schrecks\bazookas. I usually agree with it but there are times like this where you don't want them to engage. I guess it all comes back to the armour arc thing. It's the only way I can see to solve issues like this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I appreciate the responses butI understand about cover arcs.... I'm not talking about my handling of shrecks I'm talking about the AI's handling of them. Why can't they work the way they did in CMX1. I don't know how many times in CMX1 that I thought I had an area secured enough with infantry and brought up armor that gets killed by an unseen shreck in a small wooded area. That was all AI.... now the AI is as dumb as a bag of hammers. I know its a different game than CMX1 so please don't start in on that. The fact remains they worked in CMX1 and they don't now unless you control them. I know what you are saying and the old (it is now old as it has been raised so many times here in different threads) argument that it is a new engine just don't cut it IMO. 10 years on and you would have hoped some things would have been kept and put into the new engine. I know it ain't easy and what we now have is excellent!!! But..... While the game is great and a whole new lease of life for CM there are too often things which you just shout no!!! I am sure they will be tweaked over time and I hope this is one. I would rather the AI use the weapons for their primary purpose and let the humans over ride that in human played games. I.e. Shooting rifles at distant targets when you are part of an AT team. Firing AT weapon at infantry when you have limited ammo and you an AT team. HQ teams opening up at long range targets and revealing position when they should be keeping their teams under control not fighting themselves. FO's doing the same and not spotting. Obviously they feel their main weapon is their rifle. Tanks not stopping and firing at an enemy tank that has just come into view and is taking pot shots at you as you reverse and you have no hope of getting out of sight, where a simple stop and fire would nail the enemy tank or give you a chance. No better to keep reversing and move your turret back and forth in command indecision... (Perhaps AI went into a loop?) FO's who are watching a fire mission land in clear ground and not on the enemy they requested to hit (who can also be clearly seen). Instead the Moles and Worms get nailed and the HMG team in plain sight gets off scot free. IRL I think the mission would be halted and replotted rather than waste the ammo on worms. You would hope in the new engine you could make teams operate in a modus that befits their role? This would help immersion and start removing those moments when you shout at the screen.... (Well I have stopped that now and just shake my head in disbelief) I am enjoying the game as a whole but it is does not stop me wanting improvements... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Agreed on all points Holien. I'm sure it will get better with time. I do hope more tightening up happens before a new module. I don't mind squads firing panzerfausts at infantry but AT teams (including ATGs) should only fire on infantry when seriously in danger. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altipueri Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Agreed +1 I feel sorry for the moles, but in my experience it doesn't kill them but does at least give them a bloody big headache. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
togi Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Good points from Holien, I hope that they are not very hard to apply new engine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 FO's who are watching a fire mission land in clear ground and not on the enemy they requested to hit (who can also be clearly seen). Instead the Moles and Worms get nailed and the HMG team in plain sight gets off scot free. IRL I think the mission would be halted and replotted rather than waste the ammo on worms. I am enjoying the game as a whole but it is does not stop me wanting improvements... Overall, I am quite impressed by the challenge the AI can present in a well-made scenario. But I wholeheartedly agree that there is still plenty of room for AI improvement. However, with this particular behavior of FOs, I think there is a need to carefully consider how any changes are done. For those of us who play Elite/Iron level of difficulty, artillery call times can be quite long -- 3 minutes even for TRP'd artillery, and it goes up from there. It's not uncommon to be working with call times of 9 minutes or more for stuff like 105mm howitzers. And these call times apply equally to the AI as they do the human player. So, if the AI is made too willing to give up on a specific artillery target point in order to chase a moving enemy, it may become too easy to trick the AI into perpetually chasing targets with artillery, never getting off more than spotting rounds. What might be an easier and more effective improvement to make with less chance of negative side effects would be to increase the AI's ability to use larger area target artillery strikes instead of point targets. Especially with heavier artillery, wider strike zones would increase the chances of catching at least some enemy in the area of effect, even if they have moved since the initial plot order. I've noticed that the AI tends to use quite narrowly targeted artillery, which is deadly if it hits, but makes it relatively easy to dodge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I think many of Holien's suggestions underestimate a lot of the complexity involved in programming a TacAI. For example an AT gun may be carrying a dozen HE shells, does he think they exclusively there for self-defence? It's not that simple. Some are subject to simple solutions. For example endowing your FO or HQ with a short Cover Arc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I think many of Holien's suggestions underestimate a lot of the complexity involved in programming a TacAI. For example an AT gun may be carrying a dozen HE shells, does he think they exclusively there for self-defence? It's not that simple. Some are subject to simple solutions. For example endowing your FO or HQ with a short Cover Arc. FYI - I have tried the cover arc only for HQ to lose it and then opens fire. The better solution is to have a primary aim for the unit and that underlying logic to be engine driven. If the engine can not do that then I will live with trying to use covered arc and I will try and find why and when the units lose the arc. I think it might be down to cowering? But have not looked close enough to work out how and when they lose the arc. What I can say the arc has been lost and they open up!!! Not something a 2 man HQ squad should be doing unless they are about to be over run... Of course you can argue at what stage would they feel that and how on earth the AI deals with it.... As to your other point of course it is difficult and I can accept might not be possible but it does not stop me from asking (politely I hope) for that behaviour to be modelled if at all possible... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Why would an FO Fire when they are not in real danger....yet I have had mine open up at targets 250m away and not approaching my FO. COs, FOs and AT teams need some kind of intelligence so that they don't draw fire needlessly. My main problem is playing against the Computer and I end up finding out where it's ambush teams and HQs and FOs are...CMX 1 this didn't happen nearly as often(Understatement of the year). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 FYI - I have tried the cover arc only for HQ to lose it and then opens fire. What I can say the arc has been lost and they open up!!! I have to say, I've seen plenty of troops override their CAs, opening fire on things that they are supposed not to be, but the CA doesn't, as far as I remember, go away. They just fire at what they think they need to, but when you click on them, the big yellow splodge is still there. I wonder if it's something like a Face order cancelling the CA? If you give a CA, move'em and then add a Face to the destination waypoint, the Face will cancel the CA. One thing I think I've found is that the smaller the CA, the closer something has to be to be a threat. My impression is that if something is just outside the CA, it's more likely that the unit will override its arc. So FOs and HQs and other units I want to stay unexposed get a maximum of a 10m CA. Lousy for self defense, but I hope the TacAI will override if it needs to, and anyway, the rifle teams are for shootin' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Morale breaking can also cause cover arcs (and other active orders) to cancel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I think that AT teams and ATGs should reserve fire of their primary weapons to armored targets unless targeted by the player. They should only use their personal weapons if fired on or are targeted by the player. Similar rules should apply to HQs and FOs. Those should have a kind of "built-in" close range 360° covered arc and should only fire if targeted by the player or under immediate threat. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Morale breaking can also cause cover arcs (and other active orders) to cancel. 'Tis true, but I don't think broken troops are very keen to fire, most of the time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I often use the the targeting tool to check LOS and distance to a target or an area that I want to sent arty to. I've noticed that every time I do, it cancels the limited target arc, which I then have to set again. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I often use the the targeting tool to check LOS and distance to a target or an area that I want to sent arty to. I've noticed that every time I do, it cancels the limited target arc, which I then have to set again. Michael Only if you actually set the target (click on the location you're measuring to), surely? I've never seen cover arc go away just cos I've pressed "T". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 The opening post sounds like the AI is using schrecks the same way as CMSF AI uses AT weapons like Javelins. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Only if you actually set the target (click on the location you're measuring to), surely? I've never seen cover arc go away just cos I've pressed "T". Nope. I checked it again this morning and it behaves exactly as I described it. Merely selecting Target makes the CA go away. At least it does for the full circle arc and for personnel type units. I haven't checked it for all types; I may do that later. I also haven't checked it against Target Light. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Nope. I checked it again this morning and it behaves exactly as I described it. Merely selecting Target makes the CA go away. At least it does for the full circle arc and for personnel type units. I haven't checked it for all types; I may do that later. I also haven't checked it against Target Light. Michael Well, there's a puzzle. I just got round to checking it myself, and, for me, it works as I remembered (I can footle around with a targeting line without disrupting the 360 TA previously assigned to the team)... Which is nice: neither of us is losing any more marbles than had already gone over the wire... I'm on a PC playing WeGo at Warrior FoW setting against an AI opponent, patched to 1.01 (I think there's only one patch version for PCs). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Nope. I checked it again this morning and it behaves exactly as I described it. Merely selecting Target makes the CA go away. At least it does for the full circle arc and for personnel type units. I haven't checked it for all types; I may do that later. I also haven't checked it against Target Light. Michael I think this is what maybe broke the arc? BTW how do you mange to 360% I only seem to get 180% max? I will double check this and post if it is true. You could be right? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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