Huzzar! HTH balance

[Holien]

The German 'recon' mix of 5x Pumas, 2x 20mm HTs and 2x mobile AT teams is more than enough to counter the US mix of 2x Greyhounds and 4x Stuarts, especially when you take the setup options available to the German player.

Only 2x 50mm Puma's and I think from memory maybe 4 A/Cs with 20mm canon.

I think the Stus and Greyhounds have the edge but I know you feel the AT teams (only 2 with 2 fausts each) gave me an edge which in our game came good for me.

[James Crowley]

Only 2x 50mm Puma's and I think from memory maybe 4 A/Cs with 20mm canon.

I think the Stus and Greyhounds have the edge but I know you feel the AT teams (only 2 with 2 fausts each) gave me an edge which in our game came good for me.

My mistake; should be 2 x Puma plus 3 x PSW 234/1 20 mm.

[JonS]

The US 'touch' objectives are a long way from the setup positions and some distance from their capture ones;

Ironically(?) I had no difficulty getting my recon forces forward to all the TOUCH objectives. Sadly it was a waste of time because they were worth next to no points.

The German player has a huge choice of setup zones and can essentially surround the US forces from the get-go. And the US player has no notion that he is potentially starting with the enemy behind him!

+1

The German 'recon' mix of [2]x Pumas, [3]x 20mm HTs and 2x mobile AT teams is more than enough to counter the US mix of 2x Greyhounds and 4x Stuarts, especially when you take the setup options available to the German player.

As I've already noted, I had no particular problem destroying the German A/Cs at tolerable loss. But I never tried to take the central village, partly because I assumed that there were Germans there at start (those destroyed convoys ... what were they doing there? Where were the survivors?) so I didn't attempt to rush it at-start, and partly because my recon actually saw German forces - including dismounts - in the village so I didn't try to bull in before my tanks arrived. What I saw must have been the German mounted recon, but regardless, I didn't feel like sending a pair of Stuarts, a pair of Greyhouds, and a pair of jeeps into a village to mix it up with lurking infantry.

By the time my tanks got to the bridge it was alreay too late - the German player had a StuG or three in excellent positions dominating the crossing.

The overall force balance, IMHO, is probably equal but for the fact that the US player is basically the attacker, in effect, trying to beat an equal force that is already on or near their objectives

+1

However, although I haven't tried it, I think the scenario is probably very good vs the AI and this highlights a problem for scenario designers. Apart from having a very labour intensive job of creating a decent map, then trying to pick out the units in complex OB, they also have to design The AI!

+1,000

[Edit:] It occurs to me that despite being outnumbered, human-controlled Germans actually have a large force relative to what they are required to do; hold the crossings. They really aren't required to make any hard choices about which crossings they're going to defend, or where they're going to economise. There are ample StuGs and Panthers to dominate ALL the crossings simultaneously, and enough infantry to secure both the village and the farm. In fact, there's enough to do all that and maintain a useful reserve. That makes maneauvre on the part of the US player redundant - against a competent player the US can't change the schwerpunkt in an attempt to unbalance the German by forcing him to move, since you just end up trying to attack a different part of the hard shell.

[Tarquelne]

It occurs to me that despite being outnumbered, human-controlled Germans actually have a large force relative to what they are required to do; hold the crossings.

I think that's a good point.

I had a Stug immobilized for no apparent reason before reaching it's firing position. Rather than following my normal procedure when faced with an unexpected "technical" setback in a PBEM game (cursing God, pouting, etc.) I really didn't care all that much. I had plenty of Stugs for the job at hand.

Had I been attacking I imagine I would have felt differently. But if the main engagement turns into a German defense the Axis armor allowance seems luxurious.

The limited approaches to the river makes the German task quite a bit easier - I like the idea of a Rhino in the American force. Especially if the German player isn't told about it. Could give the Americans a needed "Surprise!" factor. And I've already played the scenario as the Germans, so I probably wouldn't be on the receiving end of any such surprise.

[noob]

To me the main problem with scenarios is how they are described, when i see scenarios in CMBN there they are either classed as H2H or play v AI, i dont see any that say if you play H2H let the more experienced player take "X" which in the case of Huzzar would be the Americans.

The problem with balance lies more in giving players false expectations of the task at hand as most players, including me, think that H2H means both sides have an reasonably equal chance of winning, if there is a bias toward one side then it must be indicated, the designer could even state the type of victory the side with the advantage needs to achieve to "win" the game, especially for playing as a ladder game, that way scenarios could be unbalanced without being unplayable or frustrating.

So i would recommend that rather than tweak scenarios the designers need to state clearly if it's a H2H game, then if it is they should state which side has an advantage and what the victory condition handicap is for that side to "win", then there should be no complaints and no tweaking.

[Holien]

noob you forget that the designers will think it is balanced but only after feedback they will then find out that it might not be.

For example this scenario George thought it was balanced but after some play tests there might be changes and I guess the description can then be updated.

[noob]

noob you forget that the designers will think it is balanced but only after feedback they will then find out that it might not be.

For example this scenario George thought it was balanced but after some play tests there might be changes and I guess the description can then be updated.

Thats true to a degree Holien, but George said he doesnt design balanced games but games that interest him and are playable against the AI, however hey are classed as suitable for H2H play which is misleading unless you are more specific, so in the case of Huzzar it should read, playable as H2H with the more experienced player taking the American side, and then maybe a victory level handicap recommendation for the Axis side.

Personally i think most designers design with the AI in mind and H2H balance is an afterthought, so if they took the time to consider the H2H consequences a bit more they might see any possible imbalance and mention it and come up with a suitable handicap rather than changing the scenario or creating another one thats more H2H orientated, i think the handicap system is the way to go to please everybody.

What would be even better, and this would address Holiens point about the subjective nature of what designers regard as balance, is if there were a group of players that could vet the H2H scenarios and come up with a satisfactory handicap victory level for each game, then those victory levels would be the official determinant as to who has won the games in question.

[sburke]

Thats true to a degree Holien, but George said he doesnt design balanced games but games that interest him and are playable against the AI, however hey are classed as suitable for H2H play which is misleading unless you are more specific, so in the case of Huzzar it should read, playable as H2H with the more experienced player taking the American side, and then maybe a victory level handicap recommendation for the Axis side.

What would be even better, and this would address Holiens point about the subjective nature of what designers regard as balance, is if there were a group of players that could vet the H2H scenarios and come up with a satisfactory handicap victory level for each game, then those victory levels would be the official determinant as to who has won the games in question.

In fairness to George, we could simply ask his permission to use the map and design a completely different HTH battle. I really like this map and think the scenario design of having a recon phase that is wide open to approach however you want was very cool. The map itself has potential to use in any number of different ways.

[George MC]

Hi Guys

Sorry for my absence in this discussion - just life is a bit hectic right now. I'm keeping tabs on the general thrust of the discussion. Great to see one of my scenarios provoke so much interest

In this case the scenario, as it was being released with the game was principly set-up to provide a fun challaneges against the AI either side. The H2H bit well that came as after thought - there was not enough time to playtest this fully for H2H play for the module release, just not enough days. It had some playthrough - enough to think ah that'll work for H2H (also I gauged how 'hard' it would be H2H depending on how players were doing against the AI for either side).

Given it's had a heck of a lot of playthroughs H2H and the feedback in relation to these playtests has been posted here I'm happy to make changes to the scenario and post a version for H2H play in the repository. I've just to find some quiet time at home so sit down, read all the comments, re-appraise the briefings and victory conditions and make the changes. No worries - happy to do that.

@Sburke - feel free mate (and anyone else) to use the map for any other scenarios. All I would respectfully ask is I am credited for the map design. Other than that anyone can go ahead and use the map for their own scenario

Cheery!

George

[George MC]

Ok chaps I've taken a look over Huzzar and it does look like there were some errors made with the points for the victory conditions.

I've read through the thread again and I've gone and redone the victory conditions, briefings, slight changes to the US OOB and a few wee map tweaks. I've renamed the scenario 'Huzzar! Redux v1'. I'll upload it to the repository. Hopefully I've addressed some of the issues rasied in this thread.

All the comments and feedback are very much appreciated. If anyone is keen to get involved in playtesting possible new scenarios feel free to drop me a line

Cheers fur noo

George

[sburke]

Thanks George, may have to give this a go again as soon as I finish my current PBEM.

[SelfLoadingRifle]

I have just achieved a very one sided victory in the original version as American playing the computer.

Verdict: Great map and force composition, however this scenario seems to highlight the weaknesses of the AI, rather than playing to its strengths. Consequently I feel that with this scenario, H2H is really the only way to go.

SLR

[sburke]

I have just achieved a very one sided victory in the original version as American playing the computer.

Verdict: Great map and force composition, however this scenario seems to highlight the weaknesses of the AI, rather than playing to its strengths. Consequently I feel that with this scenario, H2H is really the only way to go.

SLR

I would agree, I love the map and the concept, but any map and battle that has this much potential is exponentially harder to create a competetive AI for. If anything I think you will find it even more lopsided playing the German side against the AI.

Hats off to George for creating it though as even with the difficulites I had in a HTH, I still think it is an outstanding battle and concept. Looking forward to trying the new version.

[Fredrock1957]

Coming in a little late here, but I followed this thread from the beginning as I was playing this battle (original version) H2H. My opponent and I have been playing against each other for 10 years and I would say that he regularly outplays me 60-70% of the time. I played as the US, and we played (both blind) at Iron Level (the only way to play historical {semi} type scenarios IMHO)

First off the map is just plain incredible, the briefings layout what needs to be done in a concise and straight forward manner.

*********SPOILERS*********

During the course of the battle there were many times I felt I was winning (during the early recon stage I did some damage to his AFV's and a few StuG's) and there was times where I thought I was getting destroyed (When a Panther wiped out a whole Amrored Infantry Coy and left it with almost no capabilities). I actually pushed the ceasefire button at about the 65 minute mark (though I didnt tell my opponent), seeing if the enemy had done the same.

Fighting in and around the Main bridgehead and town was intense from about the 50 minute mark till the end of the battle. Though I felt slighted on the amount of Arty I was given, I set up an area coverage around the town (bridgehead A) and let loose with harassing fire from 50-65 minute mark, the put a linear harassing attack down the middle of the town from minute 75-End... It worked out well as I had 2 rounds left at the end of the battle, and basically shells were falling on the town for 40 minutes (+/-). Duriing this time I moved a platoon into the area of bridgehead B and across the river, I couldn't get any vehicles across the Bridge because of too much carnage (see pics). I ended up winning as Arty siezed the day (very much like real WWII arty)

All in All I would say that this is the best scenario I have played in CMBN, it gives you everything you would want in a battle. Find yourself a opponent and give this one a go, you will enjoy it.

[George MC]

Hi Freddie

Cheers for the AAR man - much appreciated. By the sounds of it your fight was a tense affair right to the bitter end. I gave the US just enough arty as a/ the Germans had broken through and this was a plug the gap sort of mission - scrambled together at short notice so not as much arty on call. Still it sounds like you made very good use of what you had.

Thanks for the kind comments about the map and briefing etc

Cheery!

George

[Fredrik Wallin]

I was the lucky guy who got my ass handed to me by Fredrock in this scenario. Fredrock is a very good player so no wonder we have played eachother for 10 years, (CMBO, BB & AK).

First things first... The map is fantastic!!!! I would go so far as to say that if anyone wnats to learn how to do maps that look beautiful, are fun to play and gives the players many alternatives on how to play, then this is the map to study!

The briefing was to the point and clear.

The forces at your disposal are ample. I played as heroic German and Fredrock played the evil Americans i this scenario. The scenario makes you despair one minute and cartwheel with joy the next. As Fredrock mentioned, I was a bit to bold when trying to get into position and lost 2 Stugs early on, but on the upside, My Panthers had some good moments as well.

This scenario offers you close combat and short range infantry combat, medium range tank duels and infatry vs armor. The map and the lenght of the scenario makes it possible to change your plan and act upon it. I moved units from one flank to the other to exploit local success as the game went on as well as moving forces to beef up defences where I needed it.

As Fredrock mentioned, he pounded me with artillery during the scenario. he didn't kill that many germans with it but prevented them from moving anywhere. Though I must admit I was banging my head against my desk when, with 3 minutes to go, one shell landed on top of my last Stug and needless to say, destroyed it.

This map and scenario will give you the chance of maneuver and show the importance of movement in combat, either to get out of trouble or to move into position to be able to punish your opponent.

And Fredrock, Had I not had 2 Panthers immobilized, I would have won!

All in all, a GREAT scenario!

[George MC]

Hi Fredrick

Wow! Glad ya liked it. Fine praise indeed. Thanks for playing it through and for posting your comments. Great to see it's been giving players a tough but enjoyable(ish) time.

Cheery!

George

[Mad Mike]

I would also like to provide some small AAR for this great scenario.

First of all though, I would like to thank my honourable opponent Siffo998 for this fantastic game. I think we both took quite some losses and still kept playing with a lot of energy and, never to be underestimated, a steady and reliable turn reply rate. Cheers and thanks for that!

*** SPOILERS ***

I was playing as the Germans.

The recon phase of this scenario was probably the one where I made most of my bad decisions in this scenario. I lost almost all my recon assets and was only able to reach one of the three "Touch" objectives (the crossings).

One result of this was that the "Alternative crossing site" later fell into US hands quite easily. I didn't really have any recon elements left on the north side of the river, so I couldn't really hinder the advance of Siffo998's US troops.

This also led to some US troops (around one to two platoons of Infantry plus Tanks) making it across the main bridge and I was barely able to contain them in the village. It took some agonisingly long turns until finally, I was able to clear those troops with the help of the StUG batteries, the halftracks and infantry.

At the same time, I used the Panzergrenadier platoon and the 4 Panthers to attack the alternative crossing site. I decided to concentrate my only artillery asset fire here (two 81mm mortars), which must have had some good effect on the US infantry which had taken the farm at the alternative crossing site. I lost one Panther and some Halftracks in that battle, but I was ultimately able to clear the village and orchard and take the objective.

The heroic perfomance of one Panzerschreck team certainly helped (see screenshot below).

At this point, I was able to shift one Panther to the other side, helping at he Main crossing site, where I had lost 3 of my 6 StuGs to Siffo's Shermans. I used a second Panther in a risky breakthrough maneouvre to cross the river via the northermost bridge. It succeeded, but cost the Panther another crew member - which reduced the crew to 3 of 5 in total (due to an earlier casualty). I thought this encirclement would be more effective than it actually was. The Panther came down on some US forces from the North and managed to kill another Sherman, for the cost of being immobilised.

Finally, I was able to take the main bridge and cross over to the north side. This proved to be a very cumbersome process for the vehicles, as quite some tanks and halftracks were destroyed at the approaches to the bridge, nearly closing it completely for any vehicle traffic. Luckily, I was able to sqeeze one Panther and some halftracks through all the destruction.

The destruction in the village as seen in the screenshot below was entirely caused by US artillery, showing the ample supply available to the US player. Basically, the US side can deny effective movement through an area for a significant duration of the battle. I lost at least two halftracks and mor soldiers to direct hits from this artillery fire.

In the end, Siffo998 surrendered. But as can be seen, he inflicted quite some casualties and it was a very hard fought battle. I never felt completely safe until the very last minutes, when the result became clear.

See some screenshots below, including the most distinguished units of the german side.

I was especially satisfied with the stellar performance of the Panzerschreck team, which I would give an EK I.

I would recommend this scenario to everyone for H2H, as I don't think that a German victory is a foregone conclusion. There are too much variation and different opportunities and possibilities in the map for that.

SUPERB Scenario!!!

[George MC]

Excellent AAR. That sounds and looks like some fight.

It does seem to see saw back and forward.

Possible Spoilers

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I think the US player using the artillery to interdict the village appears to be a good move as it shuts down the movement options through the area. It's also easy to lose Panthers in this as you can easily set-up flank shots on them. So the German player has to be careful when moving em up.

Great to see how other players tackle this one.

many thanks to you and your PBEM buddy for playing this through. And a big up for taking the time to write up your AAR and post it here in the thread.

Cheery!

George