buddy aid for immobilized tanks

[poesel]

Getting a tank immobilized is one of the great experiences that this game gives. You can really feel the agony of the tank commander and/or his superior.

It happens more often to me and less often to my opponents as I like but the frequency looks ok. To alleviate the pain I propose to extend buddy aid to vehicles.

In another thread I have learned that repairing an thrown off track is beyond the time limit of the typical game. But an immobilzed tank does not show track damage. So I assume its immobile because it drove on a rock, got stuck in the mud or something like that. Like a bug on its back but healthy.

I'm not a tanker but I remember that the able tankers of the Bundeswehr managed to drive one of theirs in our pond (sometime in the 70ties - can't remember which tank). They took another and some chains and pulled it back out (and paid dearly in reparations....

CM could abstract that and assume that a vehicle of similar or bigger size does help another to mobilze again if it is in an adjacent spot (and not being fired upon).

Does that sound realistic? Even waiting 15 or 20 minutes for a tank may be very worth the while.

[LemuelG]

In another thread I have learned that repairing an thrown off track is beyond the time limit of the typical game

You were mis-informed. If the damage is merely a thrown track there's no good reason for it to take longer than a half hour.

To argue that there's no time, or it didn't happen in a hot-zone is BS, frankly. I am more compelled by the argument that it is a lot of code for a feature of little relevance and unlikely to be prioritized over a zillion other things in the pipeline.

[rune]

Going to respectfully disagree with Lemuel here, having several tankers in the beta group, trying to change a thrown track while under fire would indeed take more time then the average scenario here. under fire being the key phrase here. Also in thick mud, it could take hours, having read several accounts of tigers and king tigers stuck so deep it took 3-4 to pull one out.

Rune

[YankeeDog]

If you search the CMSF forums, some real tankers weighed in on the whole "how long does it take to repair a thrown track" debate a while back. Short version: A lot longer than you'd think, even in peacetime without the stress of bullets flying around.

This said, *someday* it would be nice to have a feature in the game where there was a chance of un-immobilizing a tank, maybe by bailing out the crew and having them sit next to the vehicle for a half hour or so -- it could be set up so the crew has to be completely unsuppressed (i.e., not being fired upon) for it to work. Definitely shouldn't be a sure thing, either -- as noted, the tank might just be too stuck (and/or the tracks and wheels too messed up) to be fixed in the CM timeframe. I suppose you could also set it up that an adjacent friendly tank would speed up the process and/or increase the chances of success, simulating towing, nudging, etc., though this would probably be more complicated to code.

But all this is pretty darn low on my priority list; it really would only come into play once in a blue moon. So better to spend resources elsewhere for now.

[dieseltaylor]

And I can give you an example of an FV432 [light aluminium armour troop carrier] sinking into a bog that was never recovered despite the very very best efforts of the British Army. Something to do with the cypher equipment on board I believe.

Having failed to tow it out due to the immense suction of the mud a smart RE officer suggested putting charges in the mud to break the suction whilst it was pulled. As they might say " You were'nt meant to blow the bloody top off". The rest sank and disappeared.

[LemuelG]

having read several accounts of tigers and king tigers stuck so deep it took 3-4 to pull one out.

3-4 hours, so... within the time-frame of a long CMBN battle?

[dieseltaylor]

3-4 hours, so... within the time-frame of a long CMBN battle?

You are of course jesting, 3-4 tanks as any grog kno. : )

It may even be the big recovery tractors but I cannot see anyone using thos in a hostile area even if they had bought them.

[Marshal Amherst]

Who are the "tankers in the beta group"?

What is their résumé?

[Ryujin]

Going to respectfully disagree with Lemuel here, having several tankers in the beta group, trying to change a thrown track while under fire would indeed take more time then the average scenario here. under fire being the key phrase here. Also in thick mud, it could take hours, having read several accounts of tigers and king tigers stuck so deep it took 3-4 to pull one out.

Rune

As far as dragging vehicles out of thick mud, that may be be beyond CMN's scope, unless different weight classes and degrees of "stuck-ness" were modeled on how muddy the ground is. Probably too much micromanagement and such.

However, I think being able to repair tracks would be doable.

Under fire is the key phrase, often you can end up with tanks not under fire, but with a thrown/damaged track and an hour to fix them while they're sitting in a pretty safe spot. If the dismounted crew came under any fire, the process could of course stop.

[c3k]

This all presupposes that immobilized=thrown track. How about a shredded transmission? Maybe a shell in the transmission? An engine fire? Yeah, let's code the guys scurrying around the engine deck replacing every single wire and hose. (Properly shown, of course.) A sheared driveshaft? A drive sprocket shot in half? The transmission fluid leaked out? Clutch worn to bare metal? Return wheel tensioner shot off? About 1/2 mile of barbed wire wrapped around the track? Oil; now THAT warrants its own thread... Bellied out on a tree?

Stuck in the mud is so...pedestrian. There's a veritable WORLD immobilization modelling to start to look at. If one were so inclined.

If someone REALLY wants to model a 3-4 hour extraction sim, please do. "Unbog Me" or something. Let me know how it works out...

Now, a good ramming would be nice to model! Nothing like shoving the offending vehicle out of the way of the chokepoint. And, given 3-4 hours of nothing else to do, you should be able to push it back to the start point.

[dieseltaylor]

So whats all this attention on tanks? What about immobilised trucks and halftracks?

Sheesh its downright discrimination.

Marshall - I suspect that the likelihood of any relevant WW2 battle experience in the beta-group would be slight and research is your friend. Any modern tankers views I suspect are coloured by their experience of the infinitely superior models they used.

I sometimes wonder if re-enactment groups would be prepared to carry out some tests to clarify areas of doubt but my sneaky feeling is they probably would not wish to ram various bocage hedges to find out how realistic a size should be rammed.

Firing and hitting on the move might be doable subject to the right clearances! Probably not totally necessary to do that test. : )

[Ryujin]

This all presupposes that immobilized=thrown track. How about a shredded transmission? Maybe a shell in the transmission? An engine fire? Yeah, let's code the guys scurrying around the engine deck replacing every single wire and hose. (Properly shown, of course.) A sheared driveshaft? A drive sprocket shot in half? The transmission fluid leaked out? Clutch worn to bare metal? Return wheel tensioner shot off? About 1/2 mile of barbed wire wrapped around the track? Oil; now THAT warrants its own thread... Bellied out on a tree?

Stuck in the mud is so...pedestrian. There's a veritable WORLD immobilization modelling to start to look at. If one were so inclined.

If someone REALLY wants to model a 3-4 hour extraction sim, please do. "Unbog Me" or something. Let me know how it works out...

Now, a good ramming would be nice to model! Nothing like shoving the offending vehicle out of the way of the chokepoint. And, given 3-4 hours of nothing else to do, you should be able to push it back to the start point.

You know,... track damage is separate from engine damage in game. While it will show immobilized, if you look at the subsystem page for a vehicle, it will tell you if it's from track or the engine being totaled.

All I'm asking for is mending tracks. Not rebuilding or fixing the engine, not pulling tigers out of the mud over 3 hours. Just the tracks, sheesh .

[LemuelG]

This all presupposes that immobilized=thrown track.

No it doesn't. Leave the strawmen out of it eh? A thrown track is a thrown track. I don't remember anyone asking for the crew to give their vehicle a full-service in-situ; just put the friggin track back on, dig yourself out of the mud, do something!! Not rocket-science bro, severe damage is obviously not worth repairing in-game.

Battlefield Recovery Under Fire Letter, First U. S. Army Group, NORMANDY: "A tank battalion used the following procedure to recover one of their tanks which had been immobilized only 200 yards from the German lines:

"An infantry platoon was placed in concealment in the hedgerow facing the German position and disposed so that its fire would cover the disabled tank. An 81-mm mortar was emplaced on the right flank of the infantry platoon. Then the tank recovery vehicle (T-2) started forward. Almost immediately a German machine gun opened fire but was silenced in short order by the mortar.

"When the recovery vehicle reached the disabled tank, the German infantry opened fire and moved forward, but the heavy fire from our infantry platoon, coupled with a concentration from the mortar, caused their precipitate retirement. The recovery vehicle hooked on to the tank and towed it to safety with no further difficulty and no casualties."

http://www.lonesentry.com/normandy_lessons/index.html

B-b-b-but... not under fire? Not under the circumstances we find in game? Of course I call BS on this, this stuff happened all the time. Will I bother building an air-tight case? No, it doesn't benefit me to do this, I wont get the time I spend doing it back, so stuff it.

Every single armoured formation in WWII had it's own organic recovery & repair outfits; while mostly rear-echelon, elements travel directly behind the vanguard ready to respond ASAP to any demands for their services, these repair sections were expected to triage the vehicle, if the job is simple enough to do in a few hours with parts and tools on-hand then they are expected to do it, and hurry-up about it. Arguments like: "but not in your typical CMBN scenario (whatever that means)" or "but not in a hot-zone" are provably false. Battlefield repairs/recovery are completely realistic. It is that simple.

[dieseltaylor]

Lemuel - I am not sure anyone ever claimed it never happened just that it was so unlikely that it was never ever going to be worth putting into the game.

Your quote of a recovery bolsters the case as obviously dragging the tank [stuart? Sherman?] away was to enable repairs to be done in safety. I am quite happy fror players to have the option to buy a T2 in the game. I doubt any would though.

Incidentally the opposition sounds a bit lightweight doesn't it! - in the example.

However there are more important things by far to be sorted first.

[rune]

A whole lot of misc. notes, a lot which I am hijacking the thread, but found some cool information

US Tank losses at normandy

M4 75mm & 76mm/M4 105mm/M5

June 167/4/52

July 121/3/26

August 557/2/201

Source: RG492 (may be RG331 now), Records of the ETOUSA (SHAEF) Armored Fighting Vehicle and Weapons Section (AFV&W Section), Decimal Files

Boxes 1-12 (290/56/30)

Marshal, their resume include a LTC I personally met at Fort Knox [and to whom I still owe thanks for letting me and a group of us see some hidden gems], a LT, and a couple Sgts. I won't name them, but will post in the beta if they want to come forward.

One thing you didn't consider in your time and story lemuel is the recovery vehicle's time to get onsite from the depot. I don't know of any world war II units that had the recovery vehicles advance with the main attack. So your 3-4 hours [which is NOT a typical scenario] doesn't include time to notify the deport, travel time to get to the site, survey it, and recover the tank. Trying to see if I had anything on repair times for a Sherman, will post if I find anything.

Apologies for hi-jacking the thread.

Rune

[LemuelG]

Incidentally the opposition sounds a bit lightweight doesn't it! - in the example.

Sure, though a dedicated 81mm mortar is a pretty convincing problem-solver. The solution to vehicle-recovery under fire is much the same as almost every tactical problem, fire-superiority.

However there are more important things by far to be sorted first.

Agreed, just planting seeds for the next major release..

[LemuelG]

One thing you didn't consider in your time and story lemuel is the recovery vehicle's time to get onsite from the depot. I don't know of any world war II units that had the recovery vehicles advance with the main attack. So your 3-4 hours [which is NOT a typical scenario] doesn't include time to notify the deport, travel time to get to the site, survey it, and recover the tank. Trying to see if I had anything on repair times for a Sherman, will post if I find anything.

All armoured formations had organic repair units, down to company level.

b. Functions of Tank Repair and Workshop Units

(1) The repair sections (the available information apparently applies to both types of repair section mentioned above) are responsible for the general maintenance of the tanks, and of their armament and radio apparatus.

In camp and rest areas, they keep a check upon the serviceability of vehicles in the unit to which they are attached; during this period, mechanics are given advanced training through attachment to the workshop company or under master-mechanics transferred to the unit.

On the march, repair sections travel with the tank units and deal with any breakdowns in vehicles or equipment, in so far as these repairs can be effected in less than 4 hours and with field equipment. If a tank breaks down, the repair section leader inspects it and determines the nature of the damage. If the damage warrants it, the tank is handed over to the recovery platoon to be towed away; otherwise, a motorcycle with mechanics stays with the tank to effect repairs, while the other elements of the repair section go on with the column. In this way, one vehicle after another of the repair section stays behind; ordinarily the motorcycles, but, if damage is serious, a half-tracked vehicle. The repair automobile always goes on with the column, while the repair truck always stays with the repair vehicle left farthest to the rear.

In the assembly area, the repair sections thoroughly test all tanks and equipment as to fitness for battle. Any breakdowns are reported at once to the unit motor-transport sergeant.

In battle, the company repair sections are under the order of the battalion commander and are directed by a battalion motor-transport officer. As a rule they follow closely behind the fighting units and range over the battle area looking for broken-down tanks. If the tank cannot be repaired on the spot it is made towable and its position reported to the recovery platoon (of the workshop company)

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt08/german-tank-maintenance-recovery.html

The ability to respond quickly to breakdowns/damage etc was a major factor in being able to keep these units moving. Particularly for the Germans who could not rely on rapid replacement of losses incurred.

[YankeeDog]

Actually, the situation LemuelG describes sounds like a great idea for a small CMBN scenario to me -- U.S. player has to hold and/or drive the Germans off critical locations around the immobilized tank so that the recovery crew can approach and do their job. Sounds like a good ~30min. scenario to me.

NOTE: Don't interpret this as a statement by me that a tank could typically be recovered within 30 minutes of breaking down. I'm saying that the interesting segment of this small operation which could be turned into a CMBN scenario might run about 30 minutes.

Of course, we don't actually have tank recovery vehicles, or towing other vehicles in the game, but I'm sure this could be fudged by using an ammo-less M7 Priest to stand in for the recovery vehicle, and some sort of creative use of touch objectives, er sumfink.

But eventually, sure, it would be great to actually have the tank recovery vehicles, towing, repairing thrown tracks by crews, etc. in the game. These things are certainly not completely irrelevant to the CM-scale, and as the above shows, some fun things could be done with them if they were in the game. But I can easily think of a dozen other features I'd like put into the game before BFC turns their attention to this stuff -- flame weapons and burning terrain/buildings, AA weapon system and ground-to-air fire, more fortifications like heavy weapons pits for guns and mortars, etc.

So I'm happy to do without in-game track repair and vehicle recovery for the foreseeable future. Lots of other stuff it higher priority, IMHO.

[poesel]

Just to clarify: I don't expect a full 3D animated sequence of repairing a camshaft. The immobilizing is abstracted and so could be the mobilising.

Put a vehicle of the same size or bigger next to the immobilzed one. That would give a random 0-20% non-accumulative chance of mobilizing per minute (for example). Reduce probabilty if fired upon. If you're lucky you get it free in minutes, maybe never.

Its up to the player to decide if he wants to 'invest' the other vehicle in this activity.

[xian]

Also, it seems odd not to be able to acquire ammo from knocked out tanks and halftracks.

[sonar]

Played my first scenario with mud (small patches of mud) and it seems to me that bogging and imobilizing happens a lot more than in CMx1.

[c3k]

Strawman? Excellent idea! The use of straw to blanket a muddy bog was a technique utilized by all the combatants in WWII!

Track damage: you (some who are vociforous) seem to think it must represent an otherwise whole, usable, track. Where does the game differentiate between the engine and the track? (What part of the transmission system gets accounted for in which damage category?)

Why was the track thrown? Is the tensioner destroyed? Is there a mile of barbed wire entangled in it? Has a shell plowed through the top of the tracks, parallel to the hull? How many links are damaged? How many are available?

A simple "track health improvement per unit of time" is a bit too simplistic...for my taste.

The vignette of the recovery under fire is an interesting tactical example. I, too, would enjoy a quick scenario based on that battle. But why did that example make it into an AAR? Was it unique? Was it so noteworthy that a recovery under sporadic small-arms fire was attempted that it needed to be recorded? Or, was this an average day for the recovery vehicle?

Ken

[LemuelG]

The vignette of the recovery under fire is an interesting tactical example. I, too, would enjoy a quick scenario based on that battle. But why did that example make it into an AAR? Was it unique? Was it so noteworthy that a recovery under sporadic small-arms fire was attempted that it needed to be recorded? Or, was this an average day for the recovery vehicle?

Ken

The scenario was taken from a pamphlet put together by the US army with the intent of passing along tactical lessons learned in Normandy to fresh troops about to be deployed there.

Take it as you like - it may be cherry-picked, but it was held up as an example to be followed.

[Ryujin]

Strawman? Excellent idea! The use of straw to blanket a muddy bog was a technique utilized by all the combatants in WWII!

Track damage: you (some who are vociforous) seem to think it must represent an otherwise whole, usable, track. Where does the game differentiate between the engine and the track? (What part of the transmission system gets accounted for in which damage category?)

Why was the track thrown? Is the tensioner destroyed? Is there a mile of barbed wire entangled in it? Has a shell plowed through the top of the tracks, parallel to the hull? How many links are damaged? How many are available?

A simple "track health improvement per unit of time" is a bit too simplistic...for my taste.

On the other hand, "no track repair under any circumstances" is a bit too simplistic for me. The game has a very detailed armor model and the tracks are displayed as a separate sub system and you'll notice that the hit messages on tanks are detailed enough to distinguish between wheels and tracks. It appears that they are a quite separate component.

In addition I'm sure a "totally wrecked" state could be added to the tracks, but in most cases I doubt the damage would be that severe. I'd geusstimate that in most cases it'd be repairable within the scope of a CM scenario, short of some unusually major damage. It'd be odd to throw the option completely out the window solely on what seem to be outlier situations which could probably be addressed. It seems more likely it could be repaired than not.

[Tread Head]

Combat experienced tanker here..... I am NOT gonna even try to change a track under fire.