Orchards

[Sgt Schultz]

Saw a request in another thread in the main forum re: orchards. This thread has nothing to do with LOS, just how I happen to go about constructing orchards. Any interested orchard makers are more than welcome to chime in with their methods.

First, I use the grid single tree icon. Completely undocumented as far as I can tell. I spent almost two days believing that icon made single trees movable like flavor objects... and I just was too dumb to figure out the key sequence.

Next... spacing. I use a single tile space between every tree tile in a grid.

Ground cover is a personal choice. I tend to use Tall Grass with regular Grass under each tree, with assorted weeds and flowers.

Then it comes down to tree choice. Personally I use only "C" and "D" trees. C makes a nice apple-like orchard, while the Ds are more peary/peachy to me.

A "C" orchard ...

Note the ground clearance and overall apparant LOS.

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[Sgt Schultz]

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A "D" orchard ...

The branches are much lower to the ground in a "D" orchard. This is neither good nor bad, it just needs to be taken into account when constructing your orchards. Yonder pixeltruppen will not see as far in a "D" orchard. Sloping terrain, and adjusting the edges can result in many LOS variations from within and without the orchard. Also, tree choice will affect LOS of any units from behind and above the orchard. "C"s are tall, and enough of them will stomp out LOS from any reasonable structure nearby. "D"s may allow LOS over the orchard without going to extreme lengths.

[JonS]

I use a variety of trees (I use all of them, though naturally each orchard is coherent) and placement styles.

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creates nice rows

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creates a nice diagonal patern, but it's very dense.

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Is what you have above, and I do use it though I'm not wild about it. To my eye it's too grid-y.

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creates nice diagonals that are much more open. It's easy enough to mirror the pattern so the diagonals go the 'other' way.

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has a nice open, regular pattern that is on a twisted grid.

Something to bear in mid is that orchards are usually placed with two considerations in mind;

1) the sun. Ideally all sides of each tree should get even sun, which usually means that the rows are oriented N-S, or as close to is as practical.

2) the ground. long rows are easier to harvest, so a little twisting off a true N-S orientation is usual. Also, on rolling terrain I believe each row is often kept as near as pactical to the same height, giving a stepped appearance up the side of hills.

Obviously 1) and 2) can quite easily come into conflict where the side of a hill is off. But that's why some regions are particularly favoured for orchards (and vinyards); because the lie of the land allows the rows to be oriented N-S, making sure the harvest all gets good sun.

About the only orchard formation I don't use, or use very seldom (or for very small orchards) is:

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Regards

Jon

[JSB]

Hi,

Normandy orchards are mainly apple tree orchards (for fruits and cider).

C trees is by far the best choice, apple trees aren't very solid, they are often leaning so they generally don't grow very high, especially when planted in orchards.

On the picture below, you can see the difference in size between the orchard trees and the bocage trees (oaks, etc...).

The real-life usual spacing is close to at least one tree per CM size tile, but from a gameplay point of view, it may appear too dense.

Old apple trees are likely to break or uproot due to wind gusts and are replaced by young trees, so don't hesitate to leave holes in the rows

http://www.ranes1944.org/Images/SantoGiamalva/photo_aerienne_1947.jpg

A lot of different patterns...

[LongLeftFlank]

Great thread - very useful! Thanks, all!

[dieseltaylor]

The fence is not part of the thread really but I have had a concern for some time that the post and rail fence is not a very European type of fence. Or perhaps I should say Western European.

In relation to an apple orchard sending your pigs or other animals in requires a stock proof barrier so a hedge is preferable.

The only recollections of use I have from photos seen is uplands where I assume timber is not in short supply and /or rocks are not common. So talking Swiss Austrian German French uplands.

[De Savage]

Check this site. Have few photos of cider/calvados making and also video clip. 1925 footage, so its suitable for 1944 too (I think).

http://vimoutiers.net/AppleCiderCalvados.htm

[Sgt Schultz]

The fence is not part of the thread really but I have had a concern for some time that the post and rail fence is not a very European type of fence. Or perhaps I should say Western European.

In relation to an apple orchard sending your pigs or other animals in requires a stock proof barrier so a hedge is preferable.

I agree DT. I am constantly having to "de-Americanize" my maps in the final stages, as I realise I am looking at Virginia not France. I grew up in Virginia and have never been to France or Germany.

The hedges look wimpy and low bocage is a hindrance to travel that I do not wish to have in certain locales. Rural stone walls seem to be the order of the day for my preference, until later modules give us more options.

I like the ideas of leaving holes and staggering the trees. Will have to look into those.

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[RockinHarry]

The fence is not part of the thread really but I have had a concern for some time that the post and rail fence is not a very European type of fence. Or perhaps I should say Western European.

In relation to an apple orchard sending your pigs or other animals in requires a stock proof barrier so a hedge is preferable.

The only recollections of use I have from photos seen is uplands where I assume timber is not in short supply and /or rocks are not common. So talking Swiss Austrian German French uplands.

Of concern is what a fence is mainly used for (in western europe). Cattle and meadows are usually wire fences, while wooden fences are either of the garden, backyard type, or oftenly seen at horse farms. You either fence something in or out. Plantations and farm fields are very rarely fenced at all. If you can´t safely keep something in or out by fences, you wouldn´t waste resources building some.

So the main use for CM wire and wooden fences would be:

Wire: Cattle, some private properties, dangerous areas (swamps ect.)

Wooden: Horse farms, private gardens, backyards ect.

Don´t place fences for pure "cosmetical" reasons, particularly crop and farm fields. Beside beeing unrealistic, they also provide unnecessary obstacles to players and the AI.

To the contrary, I could imagine purposely placing wire fences as sort of a "light wire obstacle" (as opposed to the impenetrable CMN barb wire) in user made scenarios, or to attempt "channelizing" AI movements in certain areas. I´ve not tested the latter though.

[RockinHarry]

Something appropiate for elaborate defense positions in fairly open terrain. Combined with AP mine fields and mixed in CMN barb wire, it would do the purpose failry well I think.

2 rows of "X" pattern wire fence:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

..or maybe an idea for CM: The great war

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[De Savage]

Ah! Nice! I can now make "Rommel-Spargel" for fields.

Rommelspargel

Rommel's asparagus; slanted and barb-wired poles placed in key places behind the Atlantic Wall with the intention of preventing paratroop and glider landings.

[dieseltaylor]

Apples or walnuts?

[dieseltaylor]

Of concern is what a fence is mainly used for (in western europe). Cattle and meadows are usually wire fences, while wooden fences are either of the garden, backyard type, or oftenly seen at horse farms. You either fence something in or out. Plantations and farm fields are very rarely fenced at all. If you can´t safely keep something in or out by fences, you wouldn´t waste resources building some.

So the main use for CM wire and wooden fences would be:

Wire: Cattle, some private properties, dangerous areas (swamps ect.)

Wooden: Horse farms, private gardens, backyards ect.

My gut feeling here is the RockinHarry is actually being rather broad brush on what to expect. I fear that without an idea as to commonness of each sort of land division we may get some sort of generic Western Europe . Western Europe is a very large place with distinctive land usage and geographical features. Most people would know Holland from Normandy by looking at an old photo : )

Normandy is defintely hedge country and in villages/towns stone walls of various heights would be very common. And iron railings on top of a low wall were quite common outside wealthier properties.

There are exceptions on the coastal areas and towards Cherbourg as to the amount of hedge and wall. Ditches are just as effective for dividing fields for both ownership and drainage. A common and cheapish wooden fence would be palings which are held upright by two wires running through them - the palings would be sufficient for small animals to be kept in or out but only small scale use. Hedges obviously were free and never wore out BTW wire for cattle - I assume RH is thinking barbed wire or electrified - neither of which I think likely.

Please don't get me wrong there is the possibility for all types but with practice you can look at old pictures of countryside and get a reasonable idea of where it is by the terrain, land use; and to make it really easy, style of architecture.

And of course it is 1944 so the land use is 1930's not 1960,1990,2011.

For instance in 1930 The Uk had around 800,000 horses on farms and about 30,000 tractors so the landscape would have reflected the need for forage etc for horses. By 1940 it was nearly 100,000 tractors and 600,000 horses. I have not got figures specifically for horse on farms for France but the total for 1930 was 2.9m. which would include race horses and horses working in transport and those of the French Army. The French Army conscripted 529,000 horses in 1939.

Incidentally the fence I said I thought high pasture is actually wrong as I now recall they tend to have a trestle and not post support. Post supports being a very silly option on rocky ground. : )

I am not a designer and the choices that BF give a designer may be rather limiting .... but I hope what I add may make you look at the design of countryside with new eyes and as you design in different regions try and get the local feel.

[womble]

...Western Europe is a very large place with distinctive land usage and geographical features...

...Incidentally the fence I said I thought high pasture is actually wrong as I now recall they tend to have a trestle and not post support. Post supports being a very silly option on rocky ground. : )

I am not a designer and the choices that BF give a designer may be rather limiting .... ...and as you design in different regions try and get the local feel.

It's worth reiterating that BN is very tightly focused on Normandy, and so the limitations the game imposes might severely hamper design for scenarios in different regions; high pastures, for example, can't have trestles in their fences cos Normandy didn't. Unless that's something modders can fit after-market... "Whose fence mod are you using?"

[GonzoAttacker]

Apples or walnuts?

Looks like a Nut to me... Way to big to produce healthy apples...

[RockinHarry]

My gut feeling here is the RockinHarry is actually being rather broad brush on what to expect. I fear that without an idea as to commonness of each sort of land division we may get some sort of generic Western Europe . Western Europe is a very large place with distinctive land usage and geographical features. Most people would know Holland from Normandy by looking at an old photo : )

Normandy is defintely hedge country and in villages/towns stone walls of various heights would be very common. And iron railings on top of a low wall were quite common outside wealthier properties.

There are exceptions on the coastal areas and towards Cherbourg as to the amount of hedge and wall. Ditches are just as effective for dividing fields for both ownership and drainage. A common and cheapish wooden fence would be palings which are held upright by two wires running through them - the palings would be sufficient for small animals to be kept in or out but only small scale use. Hedges obviously were free and never wore out BTW wire for cattle - I assume RH is thinking barbed wire or electrified - neither of which I think likely.

Please don't get me wrong there is the possibility for all types but with practice you can look at old pictures of countryside and get a reasonable idea of where it is by the terrain, land use; and to make it really easy, style of architecture.

And of course it is 1944 so the land use is 1930's not 1960,1990,2011.

For instance in 1930 The Uk had around 800,000 horses on farms and about 30,000 tractors so the landscape would have reflected the need for forage etc for horses. By 1940 it was nearly 100,000 tractors and 600,000 horses. I have not got figures specifically for horse on farms for France but the total for 1930 was 2.9m. which would include race horses and horses working in transport and those of the French Army. The French Army conscripted 529,000 horses in 1939.

Incidentally the fence I said I thought high pasture is actually wrong as I now recall they tend to have a trestle and not post support. Post supports being a very silly option on rocky ground. : )

I am not a designer and the choices that BF give a designer may be rather limiting .... but I hope what I add may make you look at the design of countryside with new eyes and as you design in different regions try and get the local feel.

Yes, I generalized with regard to only two types of fences available in CMN and creating non normandy style maps & terrain. Hopefully (no doubt actually) we get more varied stuff to work with in next modules.

[dieseltaylor]

RH - do you think we can skin two men to look like the back and front of a horse!1???

Oh the realism of transport.

: )

[womble]

RH - do you think we can skin two men to look like the back and front of a horse!1???

Oh the realism of transport.

: )

CM:Battle for Laughs. Module one: the Panto years...

[Sgt Schultz]

I keep forgetting that I am one of the few that am not even thinking of the "Normandy" part. My interest stopped at the dune line and didn't pick up until after the breakout even back in the 70's when I was all groggy(no pun intended). It's all about combined arms mobile warfare for me, so my maps are by definition non-Normandy looking, as you need room and LOS to actually combine the arms. What we are working with now just happens to be the Module I have, to build the basic skills and maps.

I work within the editor, and plan on adjusting all the regional stuff as I can with new modules. Any screenshots I show should be construed as fictional areas of Eastern France or anywhere in Germany.

Low Bocage makes a great vinyard, but I leave most of the rest to the historical crowd. They have the resources, inspiration and talent.

Back to Orchards in general...

Insights from the discussion have improved my maps(in my tiny mind) already. The staggered tree effect is fun to play with. Rural Stone walls do seem more sensible to keep the critters out than a post and rail fence, and make for wonderful staging areas for infantry.

The fence detour has me thinking about starting a thread about each type of editor object or class of objects. Feel free to beat me to it.

[RockinHarry]

I keep forgetting that I am one of the few that am not even thinking of the "Normandy" part. My interest stopped at the dune line and didn't pick up until after the breakout even back in the 70's when I was all groggy(no pun intended). It's all about combined arms mobile warfare for me, so my maps are by definition non-Normandy looking, as you need room and LOS to actually combine the arms. What we are working with now just happens to be the Module I have, to build the basic skills and maps.

I work within the editor, and plan on adjusting all the regional stuff as I can with new modules. Any screenshots I show should be construed as fictional areas of Eastern France or anywhere in Germany.

Low Bocage makes a great vinyard, but I leave most of the rest to the historical crowd. They have the resources, inspiration and talent.

Back to Orchards in general...

Insights from the discussion have improved my maps(in my tiny mind) already. The staggered tree effect is fun to play with. Rural Stone walls do seem more sensible to keep the critters out than a post and rail fence, and make for wonderful staging areas for infantry.

The fence detour has me thinking about starting a thread about each type of editor object or class of objects. Feel free to beat me to it.

Same here. Normandy is well covered by stock scenarios and campaigns, with most scenario makers currently working on more. With interest mostly outside the normandy setting, I´m tinkering more with "prototyping" battles (urban, forest, ..non bocage) that also may give a hint for probable issues in later modules to come.

So back to the orchards then.

Given examples have orchards put on perfectly flat terrain. With terrain contours now having a more pronounced effect on LOS/LOF, one can spice up any larger terrain parts with scattered +1 (or -1) m height variations. It likely offers some more cover for prone infantry and also looks somewhat more natural. No idea, if that resembles real normandy style orchards in any way.

Put under most the "centered" type orchard single trees a +1, but could´ve used less.

[JonS]

Nice. You need to know that 'black spotting' the elevation too much can cause a performance hit. So, a great idea for small maps, an ok idea for medium maps, but perhaps best avoided for large maps.

[Sgt Schultz]

Aye... while I love the effect generated by the raised tiles(want to use it myself), it should definitely be used with caution on larger maps(reason I can't ATM). I do have orchards in swales and on diagonal(across tree grid) slopes though.

And where is our fruit press flavor object? BFC fix or do sumfink.

[womble]

...you need room and LOS to actually combine the arms...

I think that's a dreadful misapprehension. Even with very short LOS you can usefully combine armour and infantry, and if you're careful how you call it, artillery is powerful in even tight terrain. Close terrain requires closer coordination of the arms, I reckon.

[Sgt Schultz]

You are of course correct. All those are possible and are a wonderful test of skill.

The mobility of dashing 100 meters or less from hedgerow to hedgerow was more of my turn-off as far as bocage country is concerned. I want those German optics and long guns to get their chance to shine. I want to see just how good the Ami 76 is at 800+ meters.

[dieseltaylor]

Sgt Schultz - regarding something on all the various terrain "bits" I think that would be an excellent idea. You can sse from my sig-line that I am supporting the Wiki for CMBN which someone started. This would be an ideal place for the modding fraternity to put information.

Anyone with experience knows that a quick look up for some info you once read on here can be a nightmare as you return 70 plus hits!!! Not on CMBN currently but give it a year : ).

I am a great fan of tank battles, and see no problem with the what ifs which have lead to armour battles on rolling chalklands such as you get in Northern France near the coast. Probably comparatively few objects per square km than Normandy so hopefully large maps for those with older super computers : )