Barkmann's Corner

[Magpie_Oz]

I don't believe a tank company was mauled and it somehow disappeared in archives.

That begs the question " How well have we looked ? "

Until we establish the bona fides of the research we have no way of knowing. I know the notion that the US records do not show any matching action on that day come from research done by a fellow at an archive and I think that was at the University of Illinois. How complete are those records?

Reports from units that have been destroyed are for obvious reasons sketchy at best. There is no ships log for the sinking of the HMAS Sydney, nor report for the "Sandringham Company"

[JonS]

I know the notion that the US records do not show any matching action on that day come from research done by a fellow at an archive and I think that was at the University of Illinois. How complete are those records?

Rich looked at ('at', not 'for') the relevant records for all the applicable - and possible - units. And he looked at NARA, not UofI.

[Magpie_Oz]

Rich looked at ('at', not 'for') the relevant records for all the applicable - and possible - units. And he looked at NARA, not UofI.

He looked at some records but there is no indication at these records are 100% correct or 100% complete.

Also much of his inference is draw from establishment numbers of operational tank and does not seem to itemise tanks hit and returned to action or combat losses replaced.

From "Rich" In his own words :

There seem to be several possibilities. The first is that Barkmann made the whole thing up; second, he was wrong about where he was, and had the date wrong (these two errors are common on the battlefield (and tend to increase over time as memories fade and change), and was Barkmann either unaware or unwilling to admit (and share the credit) he was part of a defensive line, however thin it might have been; thirdly, he was telling the truth, and no one has pinned down the proof just yet? On this latter possibility, it is reasonable to remember that large elements of at least two American divisions, along with an unknown number of attachments, and VII Corps units passed through this area during the time in question, and it is perhaps better to keep an open mind on the subject until more research is done.

Despite the risks of letting the brains out.

[Cymru]

Just out of curiosity I played as US: Got a 500:0 win with no casualties and never even saw the Panther. Obviously not intended to be played this way, but still curious.

[slysniper]

Just out of curiosity I played as US: Got a 500:0 win with no casualties and never even saw the Panther. Obviously not intended to be played this way, but still curious.

lets just put it to you this way, I played the german side, was handed my head, dont recall what the final score was, but that was on warrior verse the AI. I cannot remember when the AI last beat me, normally do not play against AI because it is not very competative. So is the battle a little Allied favored, like major. I destroyed 11 enemy tanks and still scored low.

So I do not know if you will get a response for your allied adcheivement.

Now there might be plenty of players that can tell you about their amazing german win. I would be interested in that, if they did it playing the battle only once.

what a great scenario to try and win playing the German vs the AI, verse a person with skill. better modify the scoring, likely not possible.

[Krasny999]

So has the patch corrected Barkmann's shyness?

[Steiner14]

It is even possible the propaganda ministry over inflated the event and told Barkmann to put his signature on it to help boost morale.

In the west there is free press and no censorship and propaganda ministry exists. Everyone can write what he wants.

The City of London was bombed by the Luftwaffe and Britain had to defend itself. But 99% of the people in the western regime don't know, it was Great Britain that started to bomb Germany - the target was old civil city-centres. The answer of Germany were several warnings, that it will have consequences and Germany will also bomb British cities, if the bombing of civilian cities is not stopped.

Or you surely have heard about Saddam Hussein's WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION - to mention a more recent example, that in the western regime no propaganda ministry and no official censorship is needed...

And how do you imagine this could have been done in reality in Germany?

The German Reich was an authoritarian state.

You know what that means and how that works in practice? It's a pyramid, from top to bottom. Every well functioning organization, like police, military or company is an authoritarian organization. There is one person that is clearly responsible and that therefore also has the competences. The leader-principle: no competence without responsibility (contrary to systems of anonymous voting and majority decisions = organized unresponsibility)

In the german authoritarian system competences were strictly bound to persons. Competence of a person meant full responsibility of this person. In our system, where nobody is responsible, it's a normal thing, that people who give orders, afterwards hide behind majority decisions. In the german system a person needed competences to command anything. But if this person had the competences, then the person was responsible for it:

Because of the clear separation of competences (i.e. the RSHA could not investigate the trait in the high ranks of the Wehrmacht) lies the reason why Dr. Goebbels could not give Oberscharführer Barkmann any kind of orders regarding this episode. And since the comrades of Barkmann have survived Dr. Goebbels would have needed to ask them, too.

And do you really believe, the German government had with four Knight's Crosses every day, not enough heroic stories to choose from to boost morale?

You see, the world is a bit more complex, than the black & white from Hollywood.

But if you don't believe me, feel free to ask the people in Kisdorf, who knew Ernst Barkmann, what they think about Ernst Barkmann being a liar...

[Magpie_Oz]

But if you don't believe me, feel free to ask the people in Kisdorf, who knew Ernst Barkmann, what they think about Ernst Barkmann being a liar...

I don't think that anyone is calling Barkmann a liar, nor indeed is anyone citing Hollywood as a reference.

The inference was that as no tangible record of the action exists on the Allied side doubt was cast on the accuracy of Barkmann's report.

Further embellishment of the action for the sake of public morale is quite likely but it in no way diminishes Barkmann's honesty.

[Dietrich]

What with the modern predilection for superciliously asserting that all the German fighter pilots' and tank commanders' claims were vastly overinflated, I wonder what those same asserters would say in response if others asserted that Richard Bong or J.E. Johnson or Pierre Clostermann had in fact scored far fewer victories than they are generally believed to have achieved?

[Magpie_Oz]

The modern predilection is to assert that most claims by troops on the battle field are over inflated, I can't remember the thread now but there was a considerable body of evidence presented in regards of the Allied Tactical Airforces' claims in Air to Ground Victories being way over the reality.

[JonS]

The City of London was bombed by the Luftwaffe and Britain had to defend itself. But 99% of the people in the western regime don't know, it was Great Britain that started to bomb Germany - the target was old civil city-centres. The answer of Germany were several warnings, that it will have consequences and Germany will also bomb British cities, if the bombing of civilian cities is not stopped.

Give it a rest, creep.

[JonS]

What with the modern predilection for superciliously asserting that all the German fighter pilots' and tank commanders' claims were vastly overinflated, I wonder what those same asserters would say in response if others asserted that Richard Bong or J.E. Johnson or Pierre Clostermann had in fact scored far fewer victories than they are generally believed to have achieved?

They'd probably say something like 'yes, of course. WTF did you think?'

I know I certainly would. And have.

But, you see, it's the nazi-fanbois, who like their uniforms black and their jews well toasted, who most vociferously spout the nonsense about how many carriers Rudel personally sank, or how many armoured corps Wittman personally destroyed. So it's natural that the majority of the corrections you see are related to your heros.

[Magpie_Oz]

Come on now Jon, don't sugar coat it mate tell us what you really think !

[JonS]

My unicorn farts rainbows in your general direction.

[Dietrich]

[snip] So it's natural that the majority of the corrections you see are related to your heros.

The corrections I see related to my heroes?

Or did you simply mean "you" in the generic sense (i.e. "one")?

[JonS]

Hat. Fit. Wear it.

[Dietrich]

Ah, so you did mean "you" in the specific, second-person sense.

Oh well. Having not established myself among the ranks of those who tear every non-Germans-disdaining individual a new one at every opportunity, and having a username which is German (which just happens to be my actual name), I must in fact be a "nazi-fanboi".

Guess I should set about submitting a request to have my username changed to Smedley.

But now that you bring it up, Mr. Sowden, can you cite even one particular instance (other than my supposedly oh so "nazi-fanboi" initial post in this thread, that is) where I "vociferously spouted nonsense" about Rudel or Wittmann or any German at all?

And in case you're wondering: No, my initial post in this thread (or any of the subsequent ones, for that matter) wasn't in any way agreeing with or defending Steiner14. I was simply making an observation relative to the "the very idea of Ernst Barkmann doing what he is said to have done at that particular place and time in Normandy is preposterous" train of discussion in this thread. In fact, I'm perfectly willing to concur with the reckoning that the "Barkmann's Corner" tale is mostly hogwash.

[Steiner14]

... it's the nazi-fanbois, who like ... their jews well toasted

I always again find it funny and interesting to discover people like you, who believe people in non-plutocratic regimes or earlier times were manipulated with hate-propaganda; while they believe to be well informed.

[MengJiaoRedux]

Almost certainly neither account is 100% accurate. However that being said I find it likely the U.S. version is closer to the truth.

I had such nostalgia for this thread. And here it is!

[sburke]

LOL I was wondering what strange sea creature stirred this carcass up from the depths.

[John Kettler]

Pete Wenman,

I read that entire Axis History Forum thread on Barkmann's Corner, whereupon my head exploded! Man, was that a long, deep read!

Regards,

John Kettler

[MengJiaoRedux]

LOL I was wondering what strange sea creature stirred this carcass up from the depths.

It's a classic. I was astounded when I read it originally and I'm even more astounded now.

A lovely carcass from the depths.

Or to quote the poet Meng Jiao:

The carcass of a thousand battles rises from the waters.

And:

Above the gorge, one thread of sky,

In the gorge, ten thousand corded cascades.

Above, the splintered shards of slanted light,

Below, the pull of the restless roiling flow.

Broken souls lie dotted here and there,

Freezing in the gloom of centuries.

At noon the sun never settles above the gorge.

Hungry spittle flies where the gorge is dangerous,

Trees lock their roots around rotten coffins,

Rising skeletal and up-right swinging back and forth.

As the frost perches, the branches of the trees moan,

Soughing mournfully, far off ,yet clear.

A spurned exile's stripped and scattered guts

Sizzle and scald where the water boils up.

Life is like a tortured, twisted thread,

A road on which we balance, following a single strand.

Pouring a libation of tears, to console the water sprits,

They shimmer and flash an instant upon the waves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Jiao

[MengJiaoRedux]

Pete Wenman,

I read that entire Axis History Forum thread on Barkmann's Corner, whereupon my head exploded! Man, was that a long, deep read!

Regards,

John Kettler

Oh dear. And that thread points at this (proportionately less productive?)

thread:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88250

[mjkerner]

I took a look at that thread, MengJiao. Jesus, I hate the internet sometimes. A lot of jerks and morons (on both sides) spouting off.

[MengJiaoRedux]

I took a look at that thread, MengJiao. Jesus, I hate the internet sometimes. A lot of jerks and morons (on both sides) spouting off.

The internet can be disturbing, but 2 out of 3 of the threads (the one here and the Axis history one) were enlightening and well-written for the most part. I have to confess (or since I've been reading Alan Brooke) I am not ashamed to confess that I did not read much of the Armchair General thing at all.