Tiger Mealtime Position

[dieseltaylor]

Given Argies four halftracks killed with one shell, and the passengers pretty much all killed it would seem that the hits text is definitely wrong and the hit area is actually higher.

In his film three of the hits are lower hull which would mean the thick bits of a halftrack - such as engine ,chassis etc. The fact the shell kills men and goes through 8 pieces of armour does tend to indicate it was the upper hull.

[womble]

I would say the text description is unreliable. The hit penetration is calculated using what is shown on screen.

?? And what generates the text description? Some random thing? No, I'd surmise that it's generated as a by-product of determining which actual armour plate gets hit. Personally, I suspect there are fewer spots on the target which can be used as the origin of a 'boom' graphic than there are places which can be hit, and I'd trust the hit text (as far as it goes) over the graphic representation.

Now, someone was fiddling with Panthers and 'Gun Mount' hits, and they came to the conclusion that where there were two layers of armour, the outer thicker than the inner, the hit on the outer layer was not reported in text. And because the inner layer was thinner, generally the round had enough oomph left to be a pretty much dead cert penetration. I wonder, given the complexity of the armour modelling, whether this is somehow the case here, and some sort of ricochet off the gun mantlet down into the top of the forward hull armour is

a) not being reported as a 'gun mount' hit

and

meaning a mostly unslowed round is hitting much thinner armour and therefore always penetrating.

[dieseltaylor]

womble - how do you explain a Panther 75 shot apparently travelling through three lower parts of halftracks? And incidentally killing a dozen or so infantry.

My suspicion is that lower means anything in the first 8?ft Anything over that is upper and thats turret land. But obviously it is barely worth the time agaonising over this if v1.01 is going to make changes.

[daft]

I find the discussion intriguing and the mere fact that the discussion is even happening speaks volumes of the qualities of this game. But the "Meal time position"? Really? It sounds utterly ridiculous and makes the Tiger sound like a pussy cat. How the hell did they arrive at such a name?

[dieseltaylor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Joy_of_Sex

: )

or you can search under German kitties.

[stikkypixie]

?? And what generates the text description? Some random thing? No, I'd surmise that it's generated as a by-product of determining which actual armour plate gets hit. Personally, I suspect there are fewer spots on the target which can be used as the origin of a 'boom' graphic than there are places which can be hit, and I'd trust the hit text (as far as it goes) over the graphic representation.

Now, someone was fiddling with Panthers and 'Gun Mount' hits, and they came to the conclusion that where there were two layers of armour, the outer thicker than the inner, the hit on the outer layer was not reported in text. And because the inner layer was thinner, generally the round had enough oomph left to be a pretty much dead cert penetration. I wonder, given the complexity of the armour modelling, whether this is somehow the case here, and some sort of ricochet off the gun mantlet down into the top of the forward hull armour is

a) not being reported as a 'gun mount' hit

and

meaning a mostly unslowed round is hitting much thinner armour and therefore always penetrating.

The text is imprecise because it is limited. I.e. upper hull, lower hull, etc... It can't make any other distinction. The hit effect gives you much preciser information on where exactly the tank was hit.

[siffo998]

actually this name is a direct translation from me. because i simply do not know the correct term in english. the official german word is "Mahlzeitstellung". Its a term out of the tiger manual for the tiger crew.

here is a link to a copy of the tigerfibel its in german

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/TIGER-1%20FILES/tigerfibel.pdf

at page 80 onward the "mahlzeitstellung" (at best place your tiger 45° facing the enemy and no other tank could penetrate your tiger...to compress it into some words) of the tiger is explained.

as i`ve stated in my first post i am also very fascinated by the quality of the game and that you can actually use some real tank tactics. it wasnt my intention to blame the game. maybe i`ve done something wrong and its my own fault maybe it is realy a flaw in the game but even if its a flaw wouldnt it be nice to discuss it so that the game could be develloped further and gets therefore better and better.

When i`ve some time left i`ve will test the situation at multiple ranges and we will see...

[womble]

The text is imprecise because it is limited. I.e. upper hull, lower hull, etc... It can't make any other distinction. The hit effect gives you much preciser information on where exactly the tank was hit.

Except I saw the same hit effect in the same location with different texts. [shrug] We can't answer this.

[stikkypixie]

Except I saw the same hit effect in the same location with different texts. [shrug] We can't answer this.

Are you talking about the explosion or the tracer? Any way, probably a fruitless discussion.

[dieseltaylor]

Actually the translation is very fair. The barrel is the minute hand pointing to twelve o'clock [1200 hours] and the chassis is pointing to 1 o'clock around 30degrees.

I actually think that preferable to 45 degrees which seems not glancing enough. In fact taking zero as 12o'clock 45 degrees is halfway to 2 o'clock which seems too far. From what I can see 30 degrees is a favoured figure so lunchtime position looks good. Mealtime might be breakfast or supper which would be bad : )

[womble]

Are you talking about the explosion or the tracer? Any way, probably a fruitless discussion.

As far as I could tell, the explosion. Not sure I could possibly catch the 'tracer' (by which you mean the white-and-orange streak representing the incoming AP shell, I'm guessing) at the moment of impact. My fingers don't hit buttons that fast! I did try on each of the "Upper Front Hull" hits, but never managed it.

[dieseltaylor]

O/T My brother did freeze frame a 50mm shell passing between a Jeep driver and his windshield. And like an idiot he did not take the screen print there and then.

[MikeyD]

Those hit texts definitely don't correspond to what one appears to be seeing

Are you playing WeGo or Realtime? Realtime graphics have always been more 'precise' than Wego replays since CMSF days. Remember, there's hard-core calculations behind the scenes then there's the graphical representation onscreen. WeGo and Realtime both use the same hard-core caculations. In WeGo replay its just the representation of that explosion or tracer that can be slightly imprecise sometimes. The diference is not quite as apparent in CM:BN as it was in CMSF. In CMSF Wego tracers would sometimes appear to travel right through tall stone walls though they weren't really.

[siffo998]

ok i`ve done it again a new test at 600m away. in normal direct facing the m10 shot about 3-4 times at the tiger (all partial penetrations or penetrations) until the tiger was gone (have testet the normal facing only once to see if the m10 was still able to kill the tiger under normal conditions). then i`ve tested the mealtime position 600m away. i`ve turned the tiger a bit further so that it would actually be at an 1:30 position like it should be. in the first complete run through (about 10minutes) the m10 wasnt able to kill the tiger... only one partial penetration at the front turret, 32 upper left side deflections, 5 lower side deflections and 11 wheel hits (not penetrated).

the second time in the same setup i`ve got some armor spalling at the lower left side hull and i`ve thought that the test would result in the same as the previous until finally after ca. 5 minutes a hit to the upper frontal armor occurd resulting in an instant penetration.

i`ve changed the facing of the tiger in the next test and tourned it a little bit in direction to the m10 (maybe 1:15 position) and a lot of superstructere hits occured besides the obvious lower and upper side hits, armor skirts, wheels (all deflected). and then finally one hit to the upper frontal armor (penetration) and a second one (partial penetration)

these "upper frontal armor" seemes to be a real bugger for the tiger when it comes to the mealtime position.

this link is the normal 600m test setup with the tiger in about 1:30 position:

https://rapidshare.com/files/457045983/test_002_600m.bts

this link contains the savegame where the first upper frontal armor penetration occurd during the 600m testing, as described above:

https://rapidshare.com/files/2653774803/test_002.bts

[slysniper]

It sounds like you are chasing something that only the designer can answer, but given how many hits you are discussing, the fact is a shell will find a way in whether a weak spot or a deflection that goes through the top deck or what. So whether the game is listing it correct or not, there should be some lucky shots making kills once in awhile, no matter how perfect you place your tank armor.

personnally , give me a Hetzer on a nice up slope so that its front armor is at 80% and then lets see what will kill it at 600 meters. Invincable baby, that is what its all about.

[siffo998]

just for clarification: iam talking about the "upper frontal hull" armor. I`ve used the term "upper frontal armor" in the previous post. Maybe someone could missunderstand it and point it as the "top frontal armor"...

@slysniper: lucky shots should always be possible no doubt ! but its strange that the penetration occurs nearly allways when the "upper frontal hull" is hit while side hits and superstructere and lower frontal hull hits are nearly allways deflected and if not than it results in armor spalling.

[hm_stanley]

Well.. if you read German, you can read the Tigerfibel yourself.. actually reminds me of those old time car manuals..

http://www.alanhamby.com/tigerfibel.shtml

[hm_stanley]

oh.. and it's page 80 where they talk about what the OP was testing..

[slysniper]

just for clarification: iam talking about the "upper frontal hull" armor. I`ve used the term "upper frontal armor" in the previous post. Maybe someone could missunderstand it and point it as the "top frontal armor"...

@slysniper: lucky shots should always be possible no doubt ! but its strange that the penetration occurs nearly allways when the "upper frontal hull" is hit while side hits and superstructere and lower frontal hull hits are nearly allways deflected and if not than it results in armor spalling.

BACK TO WHAT I SAID BEFORE, ONLY THE PROGRAMMER CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION AS TO WHAT IS TRULLY HAPPENING HERE. But I was pointing out that it might represent weak point hits, just as many others have, but you are convinced it is hitting good armor just as the term states, but after playing these games for many years, it is not uncommon to understand that the game does not always display or say what is trully happening. so with that said, only the programmer can confirm that.

[Narses]

I read long ago in a Swiss book on early German armor tactics that vrey thing - called outlier hits. In 41-42 the German Pz III and IV with 5 man crews could fire quicker than, for example the early Soviet tanks and the T34 where the T34 cdr was the gunner. The Germans would count on getting more rds on target (3 or 4 :1) since they had a cdr, gunner and loader. And then with that number of hits they might get an unexpected or outlier hit to jam he turret, damage the gun, kill mobility or just hit a certain "sweet spot."

In addition we are faced in CMBN (1944) with the fact that German armor in 1944 was not always the best and they would often skip face hardening or adding certain elements to steel that they no longer had access to ( imports stopped from Turkey for example) causing their armor to be brittle and crack under hits.

[siffo998]

@slysniper: yep i think you are right only a dev could clear this up... but if its really a hit to a weak spot or a riochet to a weak spot it would be nice to see this in some kind of text message like in cm1 (maybe for the further patches) where a hit text appeared like "penetration at a weak spot" (dont know the excact term in english because i have had the german version ) i remember it from CMAK dont know if it was included back in the CMBO days.

[ClarkWGriswold]

This does appear to be something that only Steve can answer, but I would really like to hear that answer. Nobody is disputing that frontal shots from an M10 could kill a Tiger (given the right circumstances). Nobody is disputing that "lucky" shots should happen (hitting weak spots, hitting shot traps, etc).

What IS in dispute here is the fact that frontal hits are penetrating the frontal armor more often than not, while side hits are constantly ricocheting - despite the fact that the frontal armor is supposedly thicker and more robust. My guess is that the front simply isn't angled steeply enough to "thicken" and cause ricochets, but I am unable to view the replays right now and confirm that.

I wonder if using an extra long tracer graphic and a transparent explosion graphic would make it easier to see exactly where the M10 shells are hitting? Not sure if it would do much good, given what MikeyD has said about the resolution of the hits.

[roadiemullet]

Really,

You put in a throw away comment that the game might have it wrong when the wartime Germans decided that the Tiger was vulnerable to the 76mm at 600m on the front hull at assumed "combat angles".

Considering the tests are at higher angles but at closer ranges meaning a similar situations to when the Germans judged that they'd lose tigers why would one assume the game is wrong? Because it seems in line with the German wartime experience and judgement or that it does not accord with Tigger's are invincible.

Of course! How silly of me! Of course the Germans decided that the Tiger was vulnerable to the 76mm at 600m on the front hull at assumed "combat angles"!

Dear me what a foolish person I am not knowing that little nugget of information. Why, I should have fully researched the matter before engaging in such a troublesome and thoughtless attack on the game!

-Or- Just maybe, you shouldn't get so worked up about someone (on an internet forum for goodness sakes!) making such a comment.

This forum has many members, evidently including yourself, who know some quite impressive information about vehicle stats etc that - guess what - not EVERYONE else in the general public knows about! I personally do enjoy reading this forum for finding out exactly this sort of stuff, but as for actually researching it myself, well I have much much much more important (to me) things to do.

My "Maybe the game just has it wrong " comment was just a little innocent remark - hence the " " at the end.

You may not like what I have written, but this forum is open to anyone to post whatever they like (within reason) and like it or not, my comments have as much right to be here as yours.

...

and maybe the game does have it wrong :eek: it is only a computer game after all!

[hm_stanley]

All we need are simple point decals (little black smudge) .. showing the impact point of the projectile. I would be more than happy with that instead of full on damage animations. I dont know why steve has chosen to not do this, with alll the hit/penetration text in all.. seems to me to be a simple code addition to the game.. christ, I could probably write the method for them if I had access to the source...

PLEASE PUT HIT DEALS ON VEHICLES SHOWING IMPACT POINTS!!!

This is my only gripe with the game...

[gunnergoz]

All this energy spent upon a scenario that was, in the end, statistically pretty rare. As far as the "mealtime position's" virtues go, the tactic has the major shortcoming that, given more than one opposing AFV, it is useless because a vulnerable aspect will always be vulnerable to a maneuvering enemy. The tactic might have worked for a while on the steppes where engagement ranges could be huge, but once battle took place in the Normandy bocage it was almost irrelevant and after the breakout, Tigers were just big slow targets trying desperately to make it to the Seine.

AFAIC this just exemplifies the seemingly undying obsession some have for the German big cats. Yes they were something to marvel, and if right in front of you, to respect. But in the end they were defeated due to many factors, not the least of which was their own lack of invincibility. They had their day in the sun and then their fortunes waned, eclipsed by numbers, air power, better enemy tactics and finally production flaws due to lack of metals like molybdenum.

Frankly, I'd rather see this same energy spent on figuring out how to better employ the more ordinary weapons like artillery and infantry which were the real grist for warfare in this era. Not glamorous, I know, but far more historically relevant.