C2 -- sorry to be a noob..

[dbd1963]

I confess that I don't understand C2. I've seen people say that it is important, and I've done the tutorials and read the manual, so I get it a bit. But there's a lot I don't know.

Is there a link that talks about C2, why it's important, and how to maintain it? I feel like I need to learn a lot more about it.

As it is, I have guys running everywhere. I've tried keeping their HQs close by them but have lost a few. I guess they are a particularly juicy target? Or maybe I've just been unlucky.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

[Buck Turgidson]

This link should help.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1272591#post1272591

[dbd1963]

That did help.

Now for some basic, noobish questions -- where should the HQ for a platoon be? Should it follow along with it's sections, trying to keep them close together? Should it lead or follow?

[Sakai007]

I never lead with an HQ. If they go down, the entire platoon takes a hit. The romantic idea of the commander leading his troops into battle 'literally' from the front really has no place on the modern battle ground. However, he needs to be within range of his troops in so he can command them. There is no cut and dried location for them to be, but I generally have my platoon HQ follow fairly close behind the troops on the offense, and right on line or just a space behind on the defense. This and the fact that HQs call in arty, and you can't call arty without LOS, means that the platoon HQ units will be in the line of fire.

Just my thoughts on where an HQ should be in battle. There are probably more experienced commanders out there with their thoughts to add.

[Agua]

Moving, I generally organize them as follows:

SQUAD********SQUAD********SQUAD

*************Plt HQ

*****(organic MG)********(organic Mortar) (or)

*************(organic Mortar)

or

*************SQUAD

SQUAD********(Plt HQ)**********SQUAD

************(or Plt HQ)

Different folks do it differently.

If fire is needed on the line, I send up the HQ and MG.

With radio coms, I normally leave the organic mortar with a HT or jeep.

I still haven't got all the wonkiness of which radio HQ units will work for non organic mortars, and I get tired reading that excellent post by richochet tracer, which would provide the information if I weren't so lazy.

[Edited - Asteriks are just there in an attempt to make the location of the text square graphically with what I intended to convey]

[Edit#2 - Screw it. That doesn't display correctly. First example, like the handle of a pitch fork, with each squad being a prong. Second example, a triangle with a squad on each corner, HQ in the center or slightly behind.]

[Blackcat]

Follow, definitely follow. Close enough to keep in contact with all the sections but not close enough to be a first target or get caught in a shell burst. My rule of thumb for an infantry platoon: in open country with a line of sight it should be no more than 100 metres from any unit it commands, in close country where you need to rely on voice no more than 50 metres. I always try and fight my platoons as a unit and not let them get mied up with others and those distances enable me to do that efficiently and keep good C2.

For support arms (MGS, engineers, etc.) These I find have to be doled out to platoons depending on the task in hand for that platoon (e.g. take a building by breaching a bocage or a wall will need a section of engineers with demo charges). So support units will not normally fight as a unit under their own platoon commander (exception mortars see below), nonetheless I do keep them within the same distance tolerances as above to the commander of the platoon they are "attached" to.

Though there are situations which demand something else, I normally like to keep my on-map mortars in a group well out of harms way under either their own commander, if one is provided, or a higher HQ. That way I can test all the comms to the mortars in the setup phase and know that they will, nearly, always work when I need them to.

Other players will do things differently, but that is what I find works pretty well.

You might also what to experiment with platoon formations (e.g. 2 up then the HQ then a reserve section), different situations need different solutions but the classic two up one back is a good starting point and on attack or defence it provides a monoeuvre element that can flank or fill gaps as needed.

[dbd1963]

Thanks for that info to all of you, very helpful!

I have another one -- what is the XO supposed to do? You don't always get one. Is it just security for the company commander, or does it have a function that I'm not aware of?

Also, I don't know what the difference between organic mortar and any other kind might be.

I know a bit about strategy games, but next to nothing about real life military structure or jargon. So I'm way behind the curve!

[Agua]

XO - in this game, basically nothing, though I've read that when a company HQ is eliminated, the XO will fulfill that function. Some folks use them for follow behind medics. They don't seem to mind that task.

Organic mortar - a mortar team that is part of the platoon it is in support of. It takes its direction from the platoon HQ, which in the instance I'm speaking of, would be a rifle infantry platoon.. Seems like the glider troops and armored inf in the game are a couple of examlpes. This is contrasted from a mortar or support platoon which doesn't contain rifle squads, but rather mortars and / or MGs, with support and a separate support platoon HQ.

[dbd1963]

Follow on medics -- that's a great use for the XO unit. I've just had them tagging along with the company command, which also doesn't do much if it isn't involved in spotting for artillery.

I think this is what I have begun doing after losing a few HQ units.

SQUAD********SQUAD********SQUAD

*************Plt HQ

The pitchfork thing.

I leave the mortars way out on the edge of the map. So I've stumbled onto some of it.

I did not know that we ought to keep within 100m of HQ for visual, or 50m for voice, etc, so thanks to Blackcat for that. I just realized you could check distances with the targeting tool. That should be easy enough.

Last question for now -- is there a way to attach a MG unit to a platoon if it didn't start with it? This was pretty easy in CMx1 as I recall, but I haven't run across it for CMBN.

[Blackcat]

"difference between organic mortar and any other kind might be"

organic in this context means part of that unit's establishment. A battallion will have a platoon of medium mortars as part of its standard organisation or establishment (T&OE in the American). SO those mortars are organic to the battalion.

Organic suport units tend to be more responsive to the needs of a unit than those that belong to some other, usually higher, formation (because there is a shorter line of communication and the battalion commander doesn't have to ask permission). In the game this can usually be seen by the faster response times of 81mm mortars compared to heavy artillery.

[Blackcat]

The two up one back would look like

Squad ------------- Squad

-----------HQ-----------

---------Squad----------

So if the front two hit trouble on the advance they can pin the enemy in place whilst the third section does an "end run" to get onto their flank. You'll get the idea.

Unless assigned in the editor, MGs sections are not organic to platoons. If you want to assign a MG section to a platoon just keep it within the platoon commanders command range (see above) and it seems to get most, if not all, of the benefits of being within C2.

[dbd1963]

Thanks a lot, guys. I will use this information right away to, hopefully, profitable results.

[gunnergoz]

I've looked at the 1942 manuals for Infantry Regiment and Battalion and noticed that the mortars were supposed to be deployed within voice or visual contact range of the spotter. I think this may pre-date the widespread issuance of the handi-talkie radio, which was certainly available in Normandy, but that is how many of these units were originally trained to operate - with the mortars in very close proximity to the guys they were supporting. I suppose this would be particularly true in the case of the 60mm since they were spread even further down the chain of command than the 81's and thus were closer to the fighting, if not smack in the middle of it.

Question for you guys: with the Parachute infantry, do you pool the platoon 60mm mortars in one place and control them together as a mini-battery for the company CO or keep them with their individual platoons for the platoon leaders to run?

[Blackcat]

"with the Parachute infantry, do you pool the platoon 60mm mortars in one place and control them together as a mini-battery for the company CO or keep them with their individual platoons for the platoon leaders to run?"

The same as with a normal infantry formation, it depends on the circumstances. Whilst I prefer to group my mortars (shame we can't in this game to a massed battery fire from a single spotter) really thats for ease of comms, resupply (if available) and keeping valuable units out of harms way. However, I am not dogmatic about it.

To me MGs, engineers, mortars are support units. My basic fighting unit is the platoon and each platoon will be allocated a task; depending on the task they will get such support units as they need to carry it out not because the T&OE says that they should have such a unit.

With mortars the main disadvantage of having them grouped at the rear is one loses the opportunity for direct fire, which can be deadly as well as fast. If I think a platoon will need to get mortar fire down very quickly then they will get one, or more. Otherwise the mortars stay safe with assured comms to all spotters.

When the Brits come with their 2inch mortars at platoon level I shall be less inclined to group them. Their range and ammo load will make them far less powerful units even if it is possible for a remote spotter to call their fire in.

[dbd1963]

Direct fire -- I've not understood how to get that done. Is it as simple as targeting with the unit? I've only noted rifle fire that way. It seems I can't use the artillery menu because that is always labeled something like "denied."

[dbd1963]

The two up one back would look like

Squad ------------- Squad

-----------HQ-----------

---------Squad----------

So if the front two hit trouble on the advance they can pin the enemy in place whilst the third section does an "end run" to get onto their flank. You'll get the idea.

Also, pardon this quick post after a post:

The more I think of this one, the more I like it. Thanks for that.

[Blackcat]

Direct fire -- I've not understood how to get that done. Is it as simple as targeting with the unit? I've only noted rifle fire that way. It seems I can't use the artillery menu because that is always labeled something like "denied."

Yup, but the mortar unit has to have its own LOS to the target. The advantage with mortars is that here are no time delays and no spotting rounds. You hit the button and the rounds start landing within a few seconds and with a guaranteed level of accuracy.

The downside if your mortar can see the enemy then there is a fair chance an enemy unit can see the mortar and it ends up dead very quickly.

[lookeylou]

what the doctor ordered.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=97507

too bad this guy left. seems like he had some brains.

[akd]

Direct fire -- I've not understood how to get that done. Is it as simple as targeting with the unit? I've only noted rifle fire that way. It seems I can't use the artillery menu because that is always labeled something like "denied."

Yes, but:

1. the mortar must be deployed

2. The target must be beyond mortar minimum range

[gunnergoz]

what the doctor ordered.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=97507

too bad this guy left. seems like he had some brains.

He did indeed leave us with a gem. Do we know he's gone for good or is it that we haven't seen him in a while?

[stikkypixie]

I confess that I don't understand C2. I've seen people say that it is important, and I've done the tutorials and read the manual, so I get it a bit. But there's a lot I don't know.

Is there a link that talks about C2, why it's important, and how to maintain it? I feel like I need to learn a lot more about it.

As it is, I have guys running everywhere. I've tried keeping their HQs close by them but have lost a few. I guess they are a particularly juicy target? Or maybe I've just been unlucky.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

C2 is important because it lets your units share information about enemy locations. Units can "know" where an enemy is hiding before the spot it themselves, if they have this knowledge they'll spot the enemy faster.

Units in C2 also get a morale bonus, because they know they are still part of a major force. And of course C2 is important for the artillery.

Also worth noting is that it takes a minute or so to set up radio's. So once an HQ unit stops, it will take some time before it reestablishes radio contact.

[dbd1963]

Also worth noting is that it takes a minute or so to set up radio's. So once an HQ unit stops, it will take some time before it reestablishes radio contact.

I'm so used to the way things work now that I did not know that the radios had to be set up before they would work. That probably explains why sometimes when I checked HQs couldn't talk to artillery even when they had a radio. I'm sure they had just moved. Thanks for that info!

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Units in C2 also get a morale bonus, because they know they are still part of a major force.

how do others feel about this? so far it (the morale bonus for units in command) does not seem very big or important in my experience.

[Blackcat]

how do others feel about this? so far it (the morale bonus for units in command) does not seem very big or important in my experience.

Dunno. Most of the time my unts are under command, but on the odd time they haven't been I can't say I have noticed a big effect. I did push a couple of sections way forward in a battle yesterday and they bumped into an inferior enemy unit and did less well in the encounter than I would normally have expected, in fact they got thumped. How much of that result was down to a lack of C2 I don't know.

I suspect that this issue is so deep and complex that it would take a lot of testing to sort out what goes on and why. Good luck to anyone who wants to go on that journey.

P.S. Wouldn't it be nice to have a manual that actually explains some of this stuff.

[dbd1963]

I've got just one more noob issue that isn't related to C2, probably it's just a game mechanic thing.

Sometimes when I have my troops "move out" en masse, if they have to go through a choke point some of them will choose a completely different path than the one I've selected for them. (I note that vehicles will use a small pause to wait for their way to clear, but it seems foot soldiers don't do this.) Several times this has been disastrous. Is this a path-finding bug that will be fixed at some point, or is this intended behavior that I need to plan to work around forever?