Razorback ridge (courage and fortitude campaign)

[PLM2]

Somebodies bound to start a thread on this soon if I don't. I'm on this mission my 3rd go around... Its really killing the immersion seeing as how I've already had to reload and I'm not exactly a moron with basic tactics.

I thought the bridge crossing mission was tough..

There just isn't much of anywhere to go. I think I might have it this time... then again I havent taken the first objective and i'm 25 minutes in... But it feels like i'm doing well compared to before. Anyone beat this mission? Anyone?

The 50 minute time limit is a real killer as every move i make runs into a new strongpoint which requires an absolute minimum of 10 minutes to neutralize.

[PLM2]

Hmmm... failed a 4th time. Even though I knew where every enemy unit was and played my cards accordingly..

Whoever made this mission should never allowed to make another one ever again. And should also be hanged, drawn, and quartered. My enjoyment of CMBN has come to a steaming stop in the last 24 hours thanks to this one mission. I'm open to advice, if anyone has honestly finished it. But even then, I'm unhappy having to resort to this.

[Paul]

Play Devils' Descent Campaign. That will lift your spirits instantly.

[JRMC1879]

Hmmm... failed a 4th time. Even though I knew where every enemy unit was and played my cards accordingly..

Whoever made this mission should never allowed to make another one ever again. And should also be hanged, drawn, and quartered. My enjoyment of CMBN has come to a steaming stop in the last 24 hours thanks to this one mission. I'm open to advice, if anyone has honestly finished it. But even then, I'm unhappy having to resort to this.

Do you have to win it ? Or just not get slaughtered.

[TheVulture]

Do you have to win it ? Or just not get slaughtered.

Well, you can achieve that by hitting ceasefire on turn 1 (and since you don't get any replacements or ammo resupply before the next mission, that is the 'optimal' strategy). But that seems to rather defeat the point of playing the game.

[DavidFields]

Now maybe I will learn something more about Operations: if you lose that mission, does anyone know if that means it take you along a different path of scenarios? In other words, can it be an Operation is designed so that one would highly likely to lose one battle, so as to increase the variety of missions played?

[JRMC1879]

Well, you can achieve that by hitting ceasefire on turn 1 (and since you don't get any replacements or ammo resupply before the next mission, that is the 'optimal' strategy). But that seems to rather defeat the point of playing the game.

No ... not what I meant. Play the mission once - try the best you can - take the losses and move on ... you cant win every battle with a major victory - you cant win every battle ....

[JRMC1879]

Now maybe I will learn something more about Operations: if you lose that mission, does anyone know if that means it take you along a different path of scenarios? In other words, can it be an Operation is designed so that one would highly likely to lose one battle, so as to increase the variety of missions played?

As far as I know - Yes - it can - it depends on your level of victory ? I may be wrong ? I hope it works like that ... - in any case in real life you dont get a second chance - taking the knocks and dealing with them in the next scenario seems to me part of the enjoyment of the game - someone on this board once said - play it like you were there ... that seems to me to be most of the fun in the game - not endlessly trying to maximise the win and minimize the losses. I can understand wanting to win the campaign but not every battle with a major victory.

I am talking general here not about this specific campaign - far as I know the campaign doesnt end if you fail ? anyhow if it does I apologize but the rest stands ...

[PLM2]

I already tried a ceasefire... my campaign is declared a "Major allied defeat" and i don't get a second chance. I'd only had to do that once so far, on the bridge crossing map.

Somebody else has to have done this mission? Has anyone succeeded?

[Sergei]

I didn't win in this battle, but I got sufficiently far that I got a draw or something, and that sufficed to get through. Taking the farm and holding the toolsheds (and killing a few Germans) should be enough.

[TheVulture]

I got a minor victory on my 2nd attempt (gave the first one up after 10 turns). Taking the nearest objective - the crossroads - was easy, as was holding the tool shed and one of the rear objectives. After that I pretty much got a lot of people killed failing to take the farm before I'd had enough and cease fired.

I'm thinking of having another play through, and this time ignoring the farm completely. I'm going to stay to the left, try and get past the crossroads, and skirt around the north side of the ridge and maybe take the farm later from a different angle. The main idea though is to get some breathing room, rather than getting two companies jammed up together trying to get out of the first field. I'm hoping that I'll find more room to maneouver which will enable me to bring more firepower to bear on the farm from more directions.

[PLM2]

This wouldn't be so hard if you were given more time. 50 minutes is absurd for this mission.

[PLM2]

Update:

Got the draw and moved on my 5th go at it. I basically acted on knowing the enemy positions from previous times.

I hadn't wanted to be gamey so I did not review the map my prior losses. I must say I was shocked to see the amount of firepower that the Germans still had that I didn't even meet after finishing the mission. This mission is rediculous, I'd like to see an AAR if someone can get through it standing up. Especially a first time go.

This campaign should seriously be modified to either allow twice as much time on this mission or another go at it, when you fail the first time. It's simply not realistic to expect someone to beat their way across a ridge like that in 50 minutes, with enemy strongpoints on both sides of the ridge observing you.

[TheVulture]

On my third play through (or fourth; depending on how you count one of the abortive attempts where game mechanics issues drove me to despair; mostly pathfinding issues) I'm about 30 minutes in (out of 50) and just about to take the two objectives the Germans are still holding, at which point I can (hopefully) ceasefire and get a total victory if the Germans don't surrender first. So it is possible to do it within the time limit with room to spare, but only if you've had a few previous attempts to determine a sensible course of action. If you have to spend time probing, discovering how the defense is organised, then I think there is no way you can do it in the time allowed (or without taking prohibitive casualties).

The casualties and ammo I've burned through will probably hurt the final mission quite badly though, unless the German losses here also have some effect on that battle.

[TheVulture]

I finally found the time to play a bit more, and yes, two turns later I had sole possesion of all the terrain objectives for the US side, so I hit ceasefire and got a total victory, 945 points vs 131. That was after 31 minutes of game time, so still with 19 minutes to go.

My final losses were 21 KIA, 18 WIA (vs 76 KIA, 75 WIA, 2 surrendered on the German side). Reviweing the AAR screen there is no way I'd have got the Germans to surrender realisically - they have a lot of guys scattered around the place. It might be do-able with a few well-placed barrages of 105mm artillery, but a) why wait 20 minutes just to get some shelling in and why bother anyway...

I feel like something of an expert on this scenario now

[Russkly]

I finally found the time to play a bit more, and yes, two turns later I had sole possesion of all the terrain objectives for the US side, so I hit ceasefire and got a total victory, 945 points vs 131. That was after 31 minutes of game time, so still with 19 minutes to go.

My final losses were 21 KIA, 18 WIA (vs 76 KIA, 75 WIA, 2 surrendered on the German side). Reviweing the AAR screen there is no way I'd have got the Germans to surrender realisically - they have a lot of guys scattered around the place. It might be do-able with a few well-placed barrages of 105mm artillery, but a) why wait 20 minutes just to get some shelling in and why bother anyway...

I feel like something of an expert on this scenario now

Well, please give me a few tips as to how on earth to win this damned mission! I have reloaded this f*cking thing so many times today I actually ended up hitting the desk when one of my (actually fairly useless vs. infantry anyway) M10s took a ridiculous path and got itself f*cked up completely unnecessarily at the crossroads.

Moreover, if the Germans actually has arty in that quantity and with that accuracy (TRPs notwithstanding), the Allies would never have got out of Normandy.

I have about 15 saved game files for this mission alone (and that after the awful bridge mission) and the best I've managed is a draw.

No other CM/CMSF/CMBN campaign/mission has ever frustrated me as much as this one:

There is no room, and you don't get any Pioneers to create room until the mission is half-way over.

Any attempts to go via the flanks through the few gaps that do exist leave you exposed to withering ATG, HMG and mortar fire. The left flank seems blocked by no-hole bocage leaving only the right flank, which has got lots of ATGs and HMGs covering it from the hill over the river - even rigorous artying and mortaring doesn't nullify the threat, and using 60mm mortars against foxholes is like p*ssing in the sea.

Going up the middle, even with smoke, seems a death wish, and I tried it bounding with a full coy plus HMG, MMG and AFV fire support.

The crossroads has more mines than South Wales, and Pioneers can't clear mines, only mark them, so people have to die to identify each minefield. For this reason I gave up on the crossroads.

Reinforcements come in a big bunch meaning that you have to pause and spend ages trying (usually in vain) to spread your now uselessly large infantry force across the map available to you and then watch 155mm arty pulverise the lot as well all the useless battalion staff and other HQ and support units, which I guess have a high points value.

When I did get the draw, I saw how much the Germans still had left, and I thought that, given the terrain (esp. 2 x wooded flanking hills!!), the lack of quality AFV and arty support, and the 50-min. time limit, this mission is nigh-on unplayable unless it's designed (like the bridge mission) to seriously reduce your forces.

I've never ranted about CM in any of its iterations before, but I now want to wring Kip Anderson's neck (joke)!!!!!

Aaaagh, aaggh, aaaagh!!!!!!!!!

Any clues to unlocking this riddle, please.

R

PS Wish I could say that the rant helped, but it hasn't.

PPS Playing on Elite (not that the level would change this mission much)

[TheVulture]

*** SPOILERS ***

*** SPOILERS ***

*** SPOILERS ***

*** SPOILERS ***

You have been warned...

Riding the Pig: or, how I learned to stop worrying and love Razorback Ridge

From the start you have three options: the left side of the ridge, through the crossroads; the top of the ridge in the Field of Doom, or the right side through the open fields. My advice: go for the crossroads, despite the fact it is an obvious choke point. The right flank is exposed to all the German support assets on that side, with no cover for your guys, and they will outshoot and anything you throw at them. The field to the farm isn't much better - wire forces you out into the center, and TRPs and covering fire will get you killed in short order there too. Guys dodging mortar shells trying to take on men in better cover whilst they are in an open field, at short range, isn't a great recipe for success.

So why does the crossroads work? Firstly, you can set up your mortars in the field to the left of the road on your start point - move one or two up to the end of the field where they can get LoS to covered areas beyond the crossroads. Secondly you can move into the covered area of the field of doom on the left side; the rise in the ground protecte you from the enemy units covering the field, and the bocage gives you cover and makes a good position to overwatch the crossroads. It is pretty much the only option from your start position that lets you take on the enemy in equal cover.

With your overwatching infantry in place and mortars dropping HE aplenty, you can advance a platoon to the crossroads. There is a safe route past the mines (well, unless they have different layouts with different AI plans...). The centre is mined, as is the right side corner for the road leading up to the farm front door. But you can get past on the left side, and the far corner. It takes a lot of waypoints so it is slow going. Plus you can't send too many people through at once or else they spread out a bit into the mines. I broke them down into teams and sent them through piecemeal. It takes time but is do-able.

No surprise that the crossroads is a prime target for german mortars, to don't stay stationary there for long - keep guys moving either in to the road to the farm, or down the left branch where you can go through a gap in the bocage into the field between the two roads. Mopping up the remains of the units defending the crossroads is no problem.

You need to continually be careful with positioning your units. Try and keep them in positions out of LoS of the German support units on the left flank and they should be relatively free of mortar and HMG harassment.

At any rate, you now have a (mostly) safe route into the main fields. Again, note well that where possible you need to keep bocage between you and the German overwatch on the left flank. Once engineers turn up you can create a safe route through the field of doom to avoid the crossroads, which speeds things up. Ignore the farm for now, and concentrate on getting your platoons through the bottleneck and into useful positions.

Once I had this route, I sent one platoon along the ridge (to the right of the bocage line along the top of the ridge - that protects you from the left overwatch while the forest shield you from the right). The second platoon set up in the field opposite the main entrance to the farm. When they moved, they all moved up to the bocage simultaneously to engage the defenders there; if you do it piecemeal you are likely to be outgunned. A third platoon set up in the lane from the crossroads to the farm ready to attack from the bocage. Ultimately I used engineers to breach that bocage and send the lane platoon to occupy thr farm itself.

The infiltrated platoon has a role to play too. Their first job (as you have no doubt realised by now) is to fend off the attack that is obviously coming. Once that is done (and you have shot up the other german support units in range), leave a token force to hold the objective, and move them to the very end of the map and up into the fields towards the top of the ridge. They can help clear out the MG positions along the ridge allowing a platoon advancing from your main body to link up. Two platoons are more than enough to secure the final victory position; use differential line of sight to outgun the nearest defence positions whilst staying out of LoS of other nearby units. Then shift position, deal with the next foxholes, rinse and repeat until you can happily sit in the objective. By this point you should have cleared out the farm of all defenders too. Make sure you have men in all the objective zones and they are clear of enemies, and you can safely ceasefire (I doubt you'll manage to force a surrender, and there isn't anything else to fight for at this point).

The only use I made of the tank destroyers was to use one to blow a hole in the barn at the farm to try and help suppress the defenders, although I think they'd already abandoned the position before I did that. But it did allow an extra entry point into the farm complex itself for one unit.

So the only units I really ended up using were 4 infantry platoons, HMG teams, the mortars I used on the crossroads and the off map artillery on the left flank German overwatch as and when I spotted it. And the engineers to open a few holes to make the routes for the infantry a bit easier.

I'll repeat it again though: keep your guys out of line of sight of the left overwatch. Setting up on the wrong side of the bocage in a fire fight will see your guys being shot from front and back, with HMGs close enough to do real damage, and possibly mortars and even AT rounds landing on you too. Between bocage and slopes in the fields, there are enough dead ground positions for you to stage your troops in.

[Russkly]

Thx, Vulture, for taking the time to outline your approach, which I like very much.

You clearly have more patience than I and also more of an eye for micro-managing the movement and set-up detail of your forces. Once I get above coy-size engagements I tend to play at camera level 4, which means that the AI gets to play a bigger role. Not good around bocage and well-laid traps in CMBN, it appears.

If I can face it (after my draw, I can now play the final assault mission with vastly depleted forces), I might go back and start again trying your approach.

At the crossroads, though, I'm pretty sure it was under enemy HMG, ATG and mortar fire, when I moved some inf. through the minefields after prepping the area with (fairly useless) 60mm mortars on one aborted run-through of this mission.

You're right about the flanking units, though; they are murderous, and it's hard to imagine that arty or air assets would not have been available to suppress those areas before a btn attack along an exposed ridge. Having said that, the army (whichever country you're in) has a habit of making you do things that do not bear scrutiny.

I'll try again tomorrow and report back.

As for the spoiler alert, I don't want to ruin anyone's fun, but I kind of thought that anyone reading this thread would sort of expect spoilers given the title, and that, if they had started at the beginning, then their strawberries would have already been well and truly p*ssed on by the time they reach my post.

However, warning taken on board - I think it's my first transgression in 10 years, so I hope I get a lenient sentence.

Cheers,

R

[TheVulture]

The spoliers tags are just to indicate that my post contains spoilers - no comment or criticism of your post. I just like to be extra paranoid when putting spoilers in in some detail.

Normally I'd play at very high view levels, but this scenario pretty much requires you to get down and look at the terrain in some detail - at least by the 3rd play through when you've realised that any careless positioning can get a unit killed very quickly.

Yeah, the crossroads is covered from the flank (maybe the positioning of which units can see it varies with AI plans - don't know...) but I found that kee[ing small teams moving and not staying in the exposed areas drew minimal incoming fire. Keep your queue of guys in the lane before the bend where they have low bocage to hide behind, and each squad when it rounds the corner keeps moving until it is safely in the lane to the farm, and while you might take a few casualites it will be pretty minimal I hope.

The final mission should be do-able even if you take fairly heavy casualties in this one I think - you have a good number of troops that weren't part of this scenario too, plus some extra units, and have just about a full battalion strength on board by the end of the battle. Even pretty tough losses in razorback ridge will only put you back a few platoons (although the lack of ammo replacement might hurt too), and i think the final mission is probably do-able even if you lose just about everyone in razorback ridge; it will just be tougher.

[Russkly]

Thx again Vulture.

I tried your approach and won a tactical victory with very low casualties - given it was my umpteenth run-through, it felt rather false, but there you go.

I lost 10 minutes or so up front, because I couldn't face going through the defence of the tool-shed again - the outcome of that little fire-fight seems to swing from complete annihilation of the platoon to complete victory depending on luck alone - same placement of troops, etc, completely different outcome.

Partly as a result of the lost time (why is this a 50-minute mission?!!!) I couldn't advance through the fields past the crossroads towards the big-point objectives as you did. If I exposed anyone in the left-hand field (left of the ridge following the US axis of advance) they got toasted by the German flank units, and if I tried to go to the right of the ridge to avoid the flank units, they ran into fire from the fields in front and from the farm on their right flank.

So, in the end I left a platoon at the crossroads, another pl. plus 2 x HMGs & an FO team at the bottom of the left-hand field pouring fire on the flank units, and took one of the big-point objectives with the tool-shed platoon. Couldn't get both, because there was a naughty half-section camped in the bottom corner of the field that gave me hell as I assaulted from foxhole group to foxhole group.

Thx for your guidance, though - it helped.

Now I've had a look at the final assault mission, and it seems to be another puzzle! This campaign seems to be characterised by the designer closing off all the obvious tactical approaches and forcing the player into increasingly bizarre solutions.

Any hints, please, because I stopped enjoying this campaign a while ago and just want to finish it with a little tactical pride remaining!?

Cheers,

R

[TheVulture]

Thx again Vulture.

Now I've had a look at the final assault mission, and it seems to be another puzzle! This campaign seems to be characterised by the designer closing off all the obvious tactical approaches and forcing the player into increasingly bizarre solutions.

Any hints, please, because I stopped enjoying this campaign a while ago and just want to finish it with a little tactical pride remaining!?

My approach was an attack down two avenues, eventually adding in a third. The first attack was between the two minefields and then angling left to get amongst the houses behind the left (northern) minefield. Then work your way along the road towards the church. The second attack went around the right edge of the map, between the minefield and the muddy river bed, into the objective behind the right side minefield. With that objective taken the two attacks can meet up in the houses on the near side of the 'river'. Establishing these two routes gives you more options and less congestion of units. I'm sure you won't be surprised to learn that many of the fields are under observation from German FOs and there is some risk of incoming artillery.

I also had a pure infantry force cross the muddy river and head for the far end of the town. It is passable to infantry (although trying to do it under fire is tough - not much cover, slow moving and getting tired easily) but impassable to vehicles.

A little thought will show that that means that your tanks (which turn up later on) will all get channeled through a bottleneck in the town if you want them to cross the river bed.

In my experience the campaign to this point had two fairly easy missions and two devilishly hard ones. This one fell in the middle in difficulty terms; you have plenty of time, and the freedom to make mistakes without completely ruining your chances. But it isn't a walkover and you need to use reasonable tactics rather than just rolling over everything.

I would say that having funneled my attack through some relatively narrow channels, the German defences on those channels weren't as tough as I had feared; building up fire superiority on each strong point was straight forwards. In comparison to Razorback ridge, where trying to build up a superior force would generally get them killed from yet another direction...

[womble]

Getting a victory in this is easy: hold the toolsheds, take the MG and HQ out in the big field across the road and sneak up to the field at the back to drive off the Germans sitting on the first big objective. Then sit around doing mostly nothing for however many turns until the 105s arrive. At that point, sneak your isolated (3rd plt) HQ to the edge of the field and call 105s on the foxholes. Add the 81mms to the last set of foxholes by sneaking down the side lane with the HQ once the 105s are called, and 3rd plt should be enough to mop 'em up. Should get you at least a Tactical, as you will deprive the Germans of a big VL and have two for yourself, as well as taking very light casualties and being able to pillage every vehicle for ammo for the next scenario.

I think you could also take the right hand route. First time I tried it, I was doing okay along there (having pressed on past 'Tactical' to see how it went); an FO in the woods with the rocky slope in it will help no end with the MGs and ATGs that're there.

Does the level of victory make any difference as to what mission comes next?

[PLM2]

I tried several times doing something with my isolated platoon. The enemy is literally surrounding them at the start. Even knowing where the enemy positions around me were, every attempt to break out was still a disaster. I dont see how anyone could possibly have a different experience with HMGs surrounding you and enemy artillery called in on anything that moves, as well as being under observation from the other side of the stream behind you... that's where the AI called in mortars on me.... after I so much as moved a few squads around on tool shed

[Erwin]

These AAR's are fascinating. However, one needs to define if one is playing RT or the (IMO) much tougher WEGO mode. Makes a huge difference as to tactics etc.

[womble]

I tried several times doing something with my isolated platoon. The enemy is literally surrounding them at the start. Even knowing where the enemy positions around me were, every attempt to break out was still a disaster. I dont see how anyone could possibly have a different experience with HMGs surrounding you and enemy artillery called in on anything that moves, as well as being under observation from the other side of the stream behind you... that's where the AI called in mortars on me.... after I so much as moved a few squads around on tool shed

I don't know whether I just got lucky with the AI plan, then, cos it never once called arty on the Toolshed platoon. The MG team was useless because I couldn't get it set up anywhere it could fire on the moving troops. But the ammo bearer team was enough to stop the attack up the narrow back lane (which was the only moving infantry in the area). The squad by the little shed furthest from the main force, I again may've gotten lucky with where I deployed them, as they spotted, suppressed and broke the HMG team opposite them in short order and for no casualties. By the time that was achieved, the FO back with the main force had spotted the ATG that would have been backshooting anything in the open. Running "Fast" across the open denied any firing opportunities. A single bound to the far side of the lane let the separated squad's rifle teams finish off the remains of the HMG team. A squad, a leader team and the HQ were enough to nail the MG section HQ in the same far, large field, again without sustaining casualties. Sneaky scouting with a single team revealed the foxhole positions on the last objective. The first few grenades (chucked at twice the range of the covered arc the scouting team had set ) pinned the nearest team and two additional teams dashed up to the hedge added enough firepower to drive off or kill the only Germans on the first big objective. Had to bug out at that point because the other three squads were putting fire down. Lost a dogface to that.

All game, I had one mortar strike come in, and that was on the main force, when a squad strayed too close to an opening in the hedge. Most of the time I had no one for the AI to see. Until the 105s arrived, I wasn't going to be doing anything but observation with the main team. This wasn't my first go.

One thing I'm learning from C&F is that discovering what's really going on with a scenario is reallllly important. I'm into the last assault now, and intend to spend a good long time having a good look at the defences before committing anything like the bulk of my attack.