German Armored Infantry

[LukeFF]

Not the Panzergrenadier type, the standard infantry type.

I'm trying to figure out here what exact is 'armored' about a German armored infantry battalion. They have no vehicles, just some heavy machine guns and mortars. So, what exactly made this type of formation 'armored'?

[guachi]

Their official TO&E has them issued halftracks. The other panzergrenadier battalions were motorized with trucks. I think a PzG regiment had one battalion armored and the other two were motorized.

My guess is that adding armored panzergrenadier battalions with no halftracks to the force selection and putting them in the Infantry Only tab is to give us the option of playing with those units without having to spend all the points on the halftracks or going to the trouble of deleting the halftracks.

[Magpie_Oz]

From Wikipedia on Panzer Grenadiers:

The term Panzergrenadier was not adopted until 1942. Infantry in panzer divisions from 1937 onwards were known as Panzerschützen Regiments; they wore the same rose pink piping on their uniforms as the tank crews (with an "S" cypher that distinguished the Schützen from the tank and anti-tank units that also wore that colour) . Soldiers in special Motorized Infantry units wore the standard white piping of the Infantry. In 1942, when Infantry Regiments were renamed as Grenadier Regiments by Hitler as a historical homage to Frederick the Great's Army, the Schützen regiments (and the soldiers in them) began to be redesignated as Panzergrenadier regiments, as did Motorized Infantry units and soldiers. Their Waffenfarbe was also changed from either white (in the case of Motorized Infantry) or rose pink to a meadow-green shade previously worn by motorcycle troops. Some units did not change over their designations and/or waffenfarbe accoutrements until 1943, and many veteran Panzerschützen ignored regulations and kept their rose-pink until the end of the war.

The way I read it you had Armoured Infantry in Tank Units considered to be part of the armoured corps and Armoured Infantry Units who were part of the infantry. Their piping was different but both were termed Panzer Grenadiers.

[skelley]

Which armored Battalions are you talking about? The ones I see in the editor, most are motorized with trucks. They are probably called armored infantry because they were part of armored divisions. I also read that most armored infantry battalions were very short of the halftracks that the TO&Es said should be in them. Instead they received trucks.

[akd]

Quick battle only option for the "infantry" setting. Should probably say dismounted PGs.

[guachi]

Now that you mention it, they should probably say dismounted. The American Armored Infantry battalion on the Infantry Only tab has the units labeled (dismounted) but the German forces don't.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

Not the Panzergrenadier type, the standard infantry type.

I'm trying to figure out here what exact is 'armored' about a German armored infantry battalion. They have no vehicles, just some heavy machine guns and mortars. So, what exactly made this type of formation 'armored'?

First, if it's a German armored infantry unit, then it IS a panzergrenadier unit - panzergrenadier basically meant (edit: and still means, actually) armored infantry in the German army (from 1942 onward, as already noted).

Apart from that, in the case of the German armored divisions (panzer divisions), at best one of the four panzergrenadier battalions was actually mechanized (with SdKfz 251 half-tracks), the rest were just motorized (with trucks). So most panzergrenadier units would be expected to fight purely on foot in a typical CM:BN scenario (since trucks would likely be left off map) in any case. What makes them armored infantry is that they are part of an armored division, and trained to fight alongside tanks - besides, being motorized on trucks was already quite a big difference from regular infantry units.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

Now that you mention it, they should probably say dismounted. The American Armored Infantry battalion on the Infantry Only tab has the units labeled (dismounted) but the German forces don't.

Not necessarily. Most panzergrenadier battalions only had trucks, not half-tracks, so being on foot would be their "normal" state for a typical CM:BN battle, not a specific "dismounted" situation.

[at_dima]

As Glukx mentioned Armored Infantry means PzGrens, both (gp) and (mot) from either PzD or PzGD. No other German WW2 formation was authorised having SPW.

Apart from that, in the case of the German armored divisions (panzer divisions), at best one of the four panzergrenadier battalions was actually mechanized (with SdKfz 251 half-tracks), the rest were just motorized (with trucks).

Not entirely true for Normandy as f.e. PLD had all its 4 PzGrenBat mechanized with SdKfz 251, while 21.PzD had 2 PzGrenBat(gp) with SdKfz U304(f).

The main difference on basic level between infantry and armored infantry was squad composition and armament.

[Battlefront.com]

The proper designations in German terms (as used in WW2) are:

Panzergrenadier (motorisiert) -> mounted in trucks

Panzergrenadier (gepanzert) -> mounted in halftracks

In other words, whether they were mounted in trucks or in halftracks they were always called Panzergrenadiers (at least by this time in the war). Similarly, you can see this in some Aufklärung and Pioneer formations as well, where even Companies were organized with both truck and halftrack formations.

Steve

[LukeFF]

First, if it's a German armored infantry unit, then it IS a panzergrenadier unit - panzergrenadier basically meant (edit: and still means, actually) armored infantry in the German army (from 1942 onward, as already noted).

Apart from that, in the case of the German armored divisions (panzer divisions), at best one of the four panzergrenadier battalions was actually mechanized (with SdKfz 251 half-tracks), the rest were just motorized (with trucks). So most panzergrenadier units would be expected to fight purely on foot in a typical CM:BN scenario (since trucks would likely be left off map) in any case. What makes them armored infantry is that they are part of an armored division, and trained to fight alongside tanks - besides, being motorized on trucks was already quite a big difference from regular infantry units.

This is where I'm not totally following things. Again, in the editor, we have a tab for Infantry Only and one for Panzergrenadier. The difference between motorized and mechanized Panzergrenadier formations I understand fine.

The issue is the "Armored Infantry" formation under the "Infantry Only" tab. Is this to represent infantry battalions that were part of an armored division but weren't considered to be a Panzergrenadier formation?

[Echo]

Some of the formations can be toggled between mounted, and dismounted only. At the bottom of the screen there is an option to make them mounted, and buy the halftracks that go with them.

[Bastables]

This is where I'm not totally following things. Again, in the editor, we have a tab for Infantry Only and one for Panzergrenadier. The difference between motorized and mechanized Panzergrenadier formations I understand fine.

The issue is the "Armored Infantry" formation under the "Infantry Only" tab. Is this to represent infantry battalions that were part of an armored division but weren't considered to be a Panzergrenadier formation?

I think it is ment to represent the Armoured battalion sans it's halftracks. For instance Panzer Lehr's halftracks were sent to the rear when the battalions were deployed to defend Caen. That slightly changes the make up of sections as men are providing more rifles on the "front" as opposed to manning the 251’s. Maybe the difference in section and up composition that one cannot get the same to&e effect by just buying a halftrack battalion and deleting the half tracks one by one.

[akd]

Yes, the Panzergrenadier Battalion [armored] and the Armored Infantry Battalion available when Quick Battles are set to "Infantry" only are dismounted versions of the same units available under "Mech Infantry." You can't purchase a unit with armored vehicles and then dismount them if the QB restriction is set to "Infantry" only, so this is a way around this restriction.

[Battlefront.com]

AKD is correct. If you select a QB "Infantry Only" that means dismounted units without vehicles. How they are organized divisionally, or in the Editor, is not relevant here. This is simply a convention so that you don't get a ton of halftracks or are prevented from using dismounted units in an "Infantry Only" battle.

Steve

[LukeFF]

Thanks, Steve.

[at_dima]

Just a note .

For instance Panzer Lehr's halftracks were sent to the rear when the battalions were deployed to defend Caen.

1) PLD lost 82 HTs in June according to N.Zetterling so its hard to believe they were sent to the rear .

2) PLD battalions have been not deployed defending Caen (city itself) as it was north of it for whole June.

That slightly changes the make up of sections as men are providing more rifles on the "front" as opposed to manning the 251’s

.

Even if they did sent 251s to the rear (which is very doubtfull) they'd still have to leave drivers with the HTs as the drivers were pretty rare during WW2. So the active squad couldn't have more than 9men .

[HardRock]

Also the Germans often only had one Company in HT's even though the TOE said the whole BN due to shortages.

The Americans on the other hand....

[at_dima]

Also the Germans often only had one Company in HT's even though the TOE said the whole BN due to shortages

not the case with PLD - it was the first and only true Type44 PzD with all the battalions mounted in HTs.