Gammon Grenades and M1919A6

[Adam106]

I'm having a blast with the game so far but I'd like to raise two issues that gripe me a little.

Playing around with Parachute Infantry in the quick battles it seems they don't have access to Gammon grenades. These were important anti-tank grenades issued to American airborne infantry for Normandy and would I imagine give them a slight edge in any close combat with German light and medium vehicles.

As specialised weapons I expected to have them as a piece of equipment in the info tab. Does the game assume their use when in close contact with enemy armor? A sort of grenade bonus against vehicles?

If I remember correctly separate Gammon grenades were in CMBO....

Second thing is the LMG in parachute infantry squads. As per the Feb '44 TO&E you've got 2 squads per platoon - great, I really appreciate all the research that's gone into TO&E's in the game so far. But.... the MG should be the M1919A4 variant in Normandy. As far as I'm aware no unit had the A6 until september(ish). First use was in MARKET GARDEN I believe.

Is this a game issue - the A4 being coded as a crew served weapon and not suitable for use within a rifle squad? If so the decision to go with the A6 is understandable, if not historically accurate. It's a bit of a shame and it would be great if it could be changed.

Sorry to nit pick - I'm loving the rest of the game so far.

Adam.

[MikeyD]

I had to read up on the Gammon grenade. Never heard of it before. I have a sneaking suspicion that not one piece of German was ever knocked out by that thing. Heck, I read the towed 3 inch anti-tank gun was only credited with 6 tanks destroyed in all of Normandy, and those were issued by the battalion!

[akd]

They have a couple satchels charges instead, which have similar utility.

[JasonC]

Adam106 - do you have a source for the first use date for the M1919A6? Because the official TOE as of February 1944 had the 1919A6 in the squads - with the TOE actually 2 each, the 2nd to be "used as directed", presumably meaning pooled or LOB as a spare sometimes, etc. The gun itself was designated - adopted in 1943.

Here is the official February TOE

T/O&E 7-31, 24 February 1944

Parachute Infantry Battalion - 27/556 (officers/enlisted)

HQ Company - 12/181

Battalion HQ - 5/1, 4 carbines, 2 pistols

HQ Platoon - 0/77

Bn HQ Section - 0/15, 9 rifles, 6 carbines

Mess Section - 0/22, 22 carbines

Supply Section - 0/13, 13 carbines

Signal Section - 0/27, 4 rifles, 23 carbines, 4 hand carts

Company HQ - 4/15, 3 bazookas, 11 rifles, 8 carbines

Mortar Platoon - 2/42

HQ - 2/4, 3 bazookas, 6 carbines

2 Mortar Sections (each) - 0/19, 19 carbines, 2 81mm mortars, 2 hand carts

2 Mortar Squads (each) - 0/9, 1 mortar, 9 carbines, 1 cart

LMG Platoon - 1/46

HQ - 1/4, 3 bazookas, 5 carbines

2 LMG Sections (each) - 0/21, 4 .30 Cal M1919A4 LMG, 21 carbines

4 LMG Squads (each) - 0/5, 1 LMG, 5 carbines

3 Rifle Companies (each) - 5/125

HQ - 2/0/20, 1 bazooka, 15 rifles, 7 carbines, 6 SMG

3 Rifle Platoons (each) - 1/35

HQ - 1/0/5, 1 bazooka, 4 rifles, 1 M1903A4 or M1C rifle, 2 carbines

2 Rifle Squads (each) - 0/12, 9 rifles, 3 carbines, 2 .30 Cal M1919A6 LMG

Mortar Squad - 0/6, 6 carbines, 1 60mm mortar

Obviously, after messy drops and days in combat they'd reorganize any which way, but that was the official establishment months before Normandy. And the 1919A6s are already on it.

[nachinus]

Gammon grenades were very popular amongst brit paras and saw widespread use during the war. I guess they did a great job against light armored vehicles. Didn't know that they were issued to US paras too. If so, they certainiy should be in the game.

[JasonC]

nachinus - yes, both the 82nd and the 101st got Gammon bombs shortly before the invasion (without a lot of time to train on them). Unfamiliarity with the fuse system led to some unfortunate accidents on the flight over, even...

[Adam106]

Adam106 - do you have a source for the first use date for the M1919A6? Because the official TOE as of February 1944 had the 1919A6 in the squads - with the TOE actually 2 each, the 2nd to be "used as directed", presumably meaning pooled or LOB as a spare sometimes, etc. The gun itself was designated - adopted in 1943.

I've always been under the impression that the A6 was not introduced until after Normandy. Of all the books about the Airborne in Normandy I've read, they all will state the A4 as the version used. A lot of sources will positively state that the A6 wasn't issued until Sep' 44 and Holland. That includes memoirs from troopers themselves, some of whom desparately tried to hold on to the A4 during MARKET, as they felt it was the better weapon.

TO&E's are sometimes misleading as changes in written literature weren't always implemented by units on the date/period indicated. Likewise changes that were implemented by units sometimes didn't get updated on the TO&E for months.

In my opinion (not that it counts for much...) the M1919A4 would be the accurate option for this time period.

Gammon grenades are mentioned in dozens of first hand accounts of US and British Paras in Normandy. They may not have knocked out many tanks but they should still be there. (One sources I've got claims that 80% of the German armor knocked out at Arnhem was by the Gammon bomb. They were effective...)

Adam.

[JasonC]

I've seen credible reports of the M1919A6 being used in Italy, as its combat debut. There are field manuals from the 90th Infantry Division Association, said to have been printed in September 1943, that include instructions for maintenance of the M1919A6 and go over its differences from the more familiar A4. I have also seen reports of pics (not the pics themselves, yet) of 1919A6s in the south of France in August 44. I've seen a pic dated October 44 of one being used in Italy. Several reports say the 10th Mountain used them, in particular.

In the June 2, 1944 report of the New Weapons Board, sections on the M1919A6 include the following passages -

b. Gun, machine, cal..30, Browning, M1919A6, flexible. - This weapon was received with enthusiasm, and a substantial requisition was obtained from NATO (That is North Africa Theater of Operations). The European theater did not place a requisition, as this item had already been requested by cable and repeated requests have been made to expedite shipment.

95. Gun, Machine, Cal. .30, Browning, M 1919A6, Flexible. A real demand exists in both theaters for the M1919A6 machine gun. This weapon is entirely acceptable as a light machine gun until such time as a weapon meeting all the requirements of alight machine gun is available.

A requestion for just under 1000 additional guns for the Italian theater was submitted.

This suggests that the weapon was still considered somewhat experimental at the beginning of June, but it was already in the field in both Italy and with forces in England, and in high demand.

Overall I'd give it a Scottish "not proven", one way or the other...

[JonS]

Is there a confusion here between the Gammon bomb and the Hawkins grenade?

[sburke]

I had to read up on the Gammon grenade. Never heard of it before. I have a sneaking suspicion that not one piece of German was ever knocked out by that thing. Heck, I read the towed 3 inch anti-tank gun was only credited with 6 tanks destroyed in all of Normandy, and those were issued by the battalion!

The only reference I could find was the destruction of an "armored truck". Hardly a ringing endorsement for AT combat. It doesn't help that so few armor assets were available in Normandy initially vs the US Airborne landings. It is possible they might have been useful there just weren't a lot of targets. The few that were from the reading I have done either succumbed to 57mm ATG or Bazookas. I got the quote below from elsewhere, would need to search the book to find the actual quote.

Capt. Arthur M. Stefanich and Lt. Gerald N. Johnson, C/505, who both were combat veterans of Sicily and Italy, along with 70 men who had dropped some distance northeast of the 505 DZ, picked up their parabundles by 0930 hours, and made a forced march directly for La Fiere bridge, their assigned D-Day mission. They spread out, and on the way got in a quick lick against the enemy that morning by destroying a German armored truck with a gammon grenade. They also took two prisoners along the way. - Robert Murphy's book "No Better Place to Die".

[Pak40]

I had to read up on the Gammon grenade. Never heard of it before. I have a sneaking suspicion that not one piece of German was ever knocked out by that thing. Heck, I read the towed 3 inch anti-tank gun was only credited with 6 tanks destroyed in all of Normandy, and those were issued by the battalion!

Wrong there. I just read this morning about paras using Gammons to take a out a tank. I was going to post something about not noticing them in the equipment for para squads until I saw Adam's post. I haven't played the game all that much, let alone with paras, so I was going to wait until I had more evidence.

As for the 3" AT gun only taking out 6 tanks in all of normandy, I seriously doubt that's correct. However, only some of the divisions in Normandy had 3" AT battalions as they were rapidly being replaced by M10s. I could probably dig up the info if I cared that much about it.

[JonS]

There were 12 towed 3-in bns in Normandy.

635 8-Jun

801 13-Jun

612 14-Jun

607 20-Jun

823 24-Jun

821 26-Jun

802 1-Jul

818 15-Jul

630 24-Jul

825 25-Jul

610 1-Aug

774 8-Aug

Dates are (approx) dates of landing

[sburke]

Wrong there. I just read this morning about paras using Gammons to take a out a tank. I was going to post something about not noticing them in the equipment for para squads until I saw Adam's post. I haven't played the game all that much, let alone with paras, so I was going to wait until I had more evidence.

As for the 3" AT gun only taking out 6 tanks in all of normandy, I seriously doubt that's correct. However, only some of the divisions in Normandy had 3" AT battalions as they were rapidly being replaced by M10s. I could probably dig up the info if I cared that much about it.

Can you cite what you were reading? So far I am still looking.

[JasonC]

JonS - I don't think so, I think we are all talking about a fuzing system for a bag of C4 thrown at a target, to enable it to go off on impact.

sburke MikeyD and Pak40 - Remember that British paras were using Gammons and faced a lot of armor right away, from 21st Panzer and quickly 12SS in addition. Paras in Normandy does not equal US paras in Normandy...

[akd]

JonS - I don't think so, I think we are all talking about a fuzing system for a bag of C4 thrown at a target, to enable it to go off on impact.

Which is pretty much what you get with the satchels charges airborne squads carry.

[Magpie_Oz]

Which is pretty much what you get with the satchels charges airborne squads carry.

The Gammon Bomb weighed 900gms and was designed to detonate when it hit something, so it was kind of like a hand thrown HESH round.

A Satchel charge weighed 4kg and were detonated by pulling the igniter which could be instant or delayed, a very different situation.

If you throw a Gammon bomb when it hits it goes bang

If you throw a satchel charge that has an instantaneous fuse, after it comes to rest and you pull the string it goes BANG!!!!!!

If you throw a satchel charge that has an delayed fuse, it lands and then sometime later goes BANG!!!!!!

Quite different really in terms of how you can use them, especially against armour.

[Ryujin]

In CMN is what I think he's referring too. Because the AI probably isn't smart enough to employ a timed satchel, they detonate on impact if I remember correctly. I'd have to check that to be 100% sure though.