LIBYA? ....Anybody? Bueller? Anybody?

[Boche]

Plus, the capture of 3 dutch soldiers the other day...

someone really messed up with that one

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Read about that one. Apparently they are being well treated so it is very unlikely this would lead to any sort of Western intervention. Without getting into the politics of the situation too much I don't see much enthusiasm on the part of NATO or the US to get involved at this stage. For that Gadaffi and the forces he controls would have to do something really extreme, probably involving the use of chemical weapons or a really big massacre of civilians before there would even be consideration of intervention on the ground.

However, if there were to be a real invasion I see a Panama style operation aimed at taking Tripoli and capturing/killing Gaddafi and his associates as being the most likely option. Unlike Noriega in 1989 this would be harder and it night look more like Baghdad 2003 with an initial airborne.amphibious assualt to gain a foothold in the general area. Possibly a regular army division or two would be inserted later if resistance in the capital was harder than anticipated. However, looking at the performance of the Libyan army so far the Marines and airborne types would probably prove more than enough to do the job. If the Russians did deliver the T90s and they are currently operational that would make for a harder fight particularly iff they are being held in reserve around Tripoli which would make military sense,

[Alan8325]

I don't think T-90s would be much different from T-55s as far as a "no tank zone," enforced from the air, would be concerned. If the US or NATO intervened militarily it would be along the lines of eliminating the Libyan Gadhaffi loyalist air power, which would have to include destroying AA defenses on the ground. This would be the start, as it is what the rebels are asking for, then possibly the destruction of tanks if they happen to be assets that prolong a stalemate or tip the balance in favor of Gadhaffi loyalists.

With that said, I don't believe that the US or NATO would get involved militarily unless severe atrocities are committed against the rebels, such as the use of chemical weapons, or there is a clear, pro western leadership that has a high likelihood of emerging as the new regime after rebel victory. In Libya's case there isn't one at the moment, while in Egypt's case the military leadership, which is pro western, was clearly the power that would take charge after Mubarak's fall.

[Damian90]

Not T-90's in Libya.

Only old T-54/55's and T-72M, T-72M1 variants. Some even with old turret and FCS without laser rangefinder.

[Dietrich]

What about a rebels-versus-pro-Qaddafi-forces scenario? Perhaps Combatants (mostly Conscript, a few Green; fairly high morale settings but low-ish leadership settings) with technicals and maybe a BDRM or two versus Fighters (don't know about the various settings) with limited Syrian-reserve infantry support plus a few BMP-1s and/or maybe a T-55?

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Alan. Yes I agree it seems unlikely that Western forces would go in on the ground although not impossible. I think we can all agree that something extreme like use of WMD against civillians and or a magor threat to cut off oil supplies. Speaking of which there may be trouble developing in Saudi Arabia but that is a matter for future discussion if or when it happens.

The rebels versus Gaddaffi loyalist scenarios would be a good one. Both sides should probably have low levels of training. Gaddaffi regular army unitsshould also have a low level of training, poor leadership and poor morale. With the use of the NATO module the Libyans can use their airpower. The so far hypothetical Western intervention scenario would still be an interesting one though particularly with light forces.

[vincere]

Unconfirmed news today that an SAS team has been captured.

If it's true I would question whether they were optimally supported because of a rush job at the time of extreme overstretch and cuts.

Back to CMSF- if ever there was a time to include Special Services then it was with SF. Wonder whether we'll get them for SFx2 because it seems the nature of Western warfighting leans towards using them to augmnet main forces.

[Sergei]

The SAS were supposedly escorting a junior diplomat on a mission to meet the rebels. Apparently the rebels hadn't been informed about this beforehand, so the rebel forces arrested the soldiers.

[meade95]

I still contend that BFC lost a tremendous secondary market with CMSF (by not putting in several SOF type dedicated / outfitted units with the NATO expansion). There is a whole sizable market of 'gammers' that don't go the CMSF route as is.....but would have jumped in, if such units were avaliable. This would could have been done with very little extra costs on BFC end (as all the attributes for the most part are already included within the engine). Simply reouttfitting a couple units, weapons wise, capability wise, etc.

All the fixed costs were already there within CMSF. I believe BFC would have been surprised at the number of new customers that would have jumped in and bought CMSF + NATO had such units been included, just from my discussions on other forums of mainly FPS / RTS types.

[Alan8325]

I agree that SOF units would be great, but I think the problem with including them is that they don't use conventional equipment and tactics and these all change depending on the mission as well. This would all have to be modeled in CMSF to do them justice, otherwise they aren't much different from regular soldiers set at "elite" experience, which you can already do in CMSF.

In regard to Libya, there is a recent news article regarding fighting in the city of Misrata where pro-govt forces entered with tanks and were apparently pushed out by rebel forces later. This seems suitable for CMSF-scale battles and could make for an interesting scenario.

From the article:

"Some of the day's heaviest fighting was over the city of Misrata, where residents said pro-Gadhafi troops punched into the city with mortar and tank artillery and were pushed out five hours later by rebel forces. Misrata is 120 miles (200 kilometers) east of Tripoli.

Rebel military commanders intentionally opened the way for the government tanks to enter the city, then surrounded them and attacked the armor with anti-aircraft guns and mortar shells, said Abdel Fatah al-Misrati, one of the rebels.

"Our spirits are high," he said. "The regime is struggling and what is happening is a desperate attempt to survive and crush the opposition, but the rebels are in control of the city."

"Now the Gadhafi forces are trapped inside the city," he said.

A doctor reached by The Associated Press in the city's main hospital said tanks shelled its stores of medical supplies, setting them on fire.

The residents said the shelling was almost over by early afternoon.

The residents and the doctor spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared reprisals.

Four rebels and five pro-Gadhafi troops were killed, al-Misrati said."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/af_libya

[vincere]

I agree that SOF units would be great, but I think the problem with including them is that they don't use conventional equipment and tactics and these all change depending on the mission as well. This would all have to be modeled in CMSF to do them justice, otherwise they aren't much different from regular soldiers set at "elite" experience, which you can already do in CMSF.

That's exactlty it. Elite, fit and determined troops with different TOE, and varaid unit size.

Large fighting patrol fighted with new body armour, lighter but more protection. Several gpmgs in the bloated squad. Makes for a good support unit. Not supermen, with steel skin; but an interesting support group as per incresing use by the west. Or flip it, Sec ops, on a secure a target supported by light infantry.

Used to be uniterested in Spec ops games. Like many here I love the infantry fight; but these days they show up for most major gigs.

[Erwin]

But how would one simulate a SOP force escorting a diplomat and getting captured per real life?

[Boche]

But how would one simulate a SOP force escorting a diplomat and getting captured per real life?

Maybe a 3:10 to Yuma style scenario? although that would be just copying

[vincere]

But how would one simulate a SOP force escorting a diplomat and getting captured per real life?

Too small scale for what CMSF does best imo. Supporting company to battalion size attacks. I guess a danger could be that they start showing in a lot of battles; but most guys producing seem a bit to mature for overkill.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

I agree. Special Forces would be much more likely to be used well behind the FEBA where our usual CMSF battles occur. Maybe an occasional scenario in which they are used would be ok but the mission would have to be a suitable small scale skirmish attacking a suitable objective and it would have to include at least a couple of squads to make it a viable game and even then they would need to be cooperating with local forces to make it really enjoyable. Or something based around a modern version of the LRDG in WW2. For SF I would have all morale, training and leadership ratings set to the highest ratings possible.

Within the CMSF setting I think we have better options available for scenarios as previously discussed. For example Libyan rebels vs government forces, a Western intervention force (eg US Marines) etc. Perhaps the latter could be a relatively light force like US Airborne types or an MEU having to hold back a Libyan armoured counter attack early on in a Panama style operation. A game set during a final attack on Tripoli fighting against a well prepared Libyan defence. You could even combine the action with a SF attempt to kill/capture key leadership figures (even Gaddaffi himself)

[hcrof]

May I direct people to this thread if they want to fight out the Libyan conflict for themselves?

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1236365