A couple of questions

[Surrender Monkey]

Well it all depends on what someone means by:

"a way to review the whole game would have been really great!" doesn't it.

The current AAR screen gives you a review of the whole game.

Others in the past have wanted the ability to record the entire (say 4 hour game) and be able to jump from unit to unit and review how it went (like the replay in WEGO).

So you end up with the requirement to provide 4hours of video from the perspective of say 40 units with 360 views and the various views avialable (1,2,3,4, ...). That rapidly runs to a lot of data.

No you are wrong.

The review is exactly like wego - only bigger..

The same reason a pbem takes about 10k-1mb in size is why 30 turns would take 30x more size. For example 30 mb.

In each 1 minute pbem you can view the map from every angle and from every unit. (and that is in a sub 1mb file).

a full game (30turns) would consist of the data amounting to 30 pbems...

gedit?

try it yourself... fire up a "play by email" game and not the size of the files (Increasing with the size of the battle , and action happening).

(If my mind does not fail me there was a fan-made tool that made it possible to do this for the original CMBO)

[gibsonm]

No offence mate, I can see now that You really have no idea how data works. So I think we might aswell stop this discussion right away.

Edit: If I may suggest, if it's so boring to you perhaps you really should just ignore the thread? It's not like if the questions being asked are directly aimed to you anyway.

None taken.

I understand what you are after and indeed own other products that do offer the ability to replay the entire battle (with detailed hit information, etc.).

However the reasons I used above are the points that Steve, et al have made when this improvement has been asked for both internally and externally several times since what 2000 or so.

All I'm doing is repeating them here.

[Ankh Morpork]

Well tbh Im not really sure if you actually DO understand what we're asking for - we're not asking for a way to save a fully rendered game.

Here's how it works.

After you've seen 1min of WeGo - you can (in the old games anyway) watch a replay of that round where you can move around the cam just like in any other WeGo turn. The data for this replay is variables that was calculated before the actual WeGo turn started. This variables takes very little space since all they do is that they tell the game engine what is about to happen in the game and what it's to show. The actual graphics/sounds is not stored among those variables.

A full minute of WeGo data really takes as Monkey pointed out very little space - however, was the data to include the graphics/sound and actual view you had while you played the game it would quickly turn to much bigger files. But there really is no reason for this.

I really hope that Steve and the others really understand what we need. We do NOT need a way to render the full game into video files. What we need is a way of replaying the data files in the game engine and be able to watch this full game again without any interupts for giving orders.

It would actually be like any normal WeGo turn only that you saw it from round one to round thirty and no options avaible apart from pause/rewind etc.

These files would actually take very little space. Monkey is pretty much correct with his calculations on how much space it would take.

But rather than you quoting Steve and others - it would be much better if this was read by the actual developers instead. It could be that they have misunderstod people in the past on this matter. (who knows, perhaps they wont understand me either )

[gibsonm]

Well tbh Im not really sure if you actually DO understand what we're asking for - we're not asking for a way to save a fully rendered game.

Here's how it works.

After you've seen 1min of WeGo - you can (in the old games anyway) watch a replay of that round where you can move around the cam just like in any other WeGo turn. The data for this replay is variables that was calculated before the actual WeGo turn started. This variables takes very little space since all they do is that they tell the game engine what is about to happen in the game and what it's to show. The actual graphics/sounds is not stored among those variables.

A full minute of WeGo data really takes as Monkey pointed out very little space - however, was the data to include the graphics/sound and actual view you had while you played the game it would quickly turn to much bigger files. But there really is no reason for this.

I really hope that Steve and the others really understand what we need. We do NOT need a way to render the full game into video files. What we need is a way of replaying the data files in the game engine and be able to watch this full game again without any interupts for giving orders.

It would actually be like any normal WeGo turn only that you saw it from round one to round thirty and no options avaible apart from pause/rewind etc.

These files would actually take very little space. Monkey is pretty much correct with his calculations on how much space it would take.

But rather than you quoting Steve and others - it would be much better if this was read by the actual developers instead. It could be that they have misunderstod people in the past on this matter. (who knows, perhaps they wont understand me either )

Well I can only quote Steve et al as that's "public" and therefore not a NDA breach.

However most people when they ask for this (and the reason why I know the official response is because its a "popular" topic) want the full functionality of the WEGO replay (including sounds and graphics).

They might want to review the turn by watching the replay at a bird's eye elevation to get an overall feel.

Then they may wish to "zoom in" on particular units or terrain and say select a squad and follow it, then rewind and pick a tank on the other side of the map and watch that. Then if say the tank is destroyed part way through the turn, they want to rewind to the start of the turn and pick the tank again but this time change the view aspect so they can detect the firer.

I know of others who wanted to be able to do "what if" type stuff where to use the above example if the tank is destroyed, they want to do a "fly though" of an alternate route so that next time they use that way instead of the one they did use, etc.

[Ankh Morpork]

However most people when they ask for this (and the reason why I know the official response is because its a "popular" topic) want the full functionality of the WEGO replay (including sounds and graphics).

They might want to review the turn by watching the replay at a bird's eye elvation to get an overall feel.

This is exactly what Im talking about. These things are just like any other WeGo replay only it will be 30 minutes rather than 1 minute.

However, the rest you mentioned is not at all what Im talking about. Im talking about a replay of the game - not at all about changing what happened during the game.

[gibsonm]

So you only want the overall feel, not the view from each unit type capability?

None of the stuff in my earlier post was about changing outcomes, but people previously have wanted the "up close" unit by unit option and once a unit was chosen the ability to pan the view left and right (not just limited to straight ahead) and all the other camera views available in a WEGO replay.

Anyway that's 1230.

Reveille in 5 hours.

[Ankh Morpork]

Have you even played WeGo mate? Im starting to doubt it

1min of WeGo means you can roam around the battlefield freely with your cam while watching the actual battle. Thats pretty much it.

What I want (and many others) is the option to watch the full game (30 turns or what ever its set on) just like that after the battle has ended.

In WeGo you can select your unit and let the camera follow it - or just move the cam down to ground level (or what ever view you want) and see the battle.

When you do a PBEM you actually send really small files to each other which already include the outcome.

Let's say that 1 turn is 2-3 pbems (cant remember if its 2 or 3). What I'd like is the possability to combine all these pbems (without the order turns) into one big and watch it like any other WeGo turn using the actual game engine.

So, apart from the classic "battle report" after a finished game. I'd like to see more statistics AND the option to save the full battle (and watch it later on through the game engine) and/or the option to watch it right away using the classic Forward/rewind/pause/play options.

And yes, thats what people want and it's not really a big problem to put into the game. Im 100% sure of this.

You see - moving around the cam on the screen while you watch a WeGo round really doesnt do anything at all to the actual size of the WeGo file. There really is no reason why it should be limited to watching from just 1 specific view.

[Pandur]

When you do a PBEM you actually send really small files to each other which already include the outcome.

well, unfortuantely the files are not "that" small. a good sized battle got about 10 to 30 MB files to transfer every minute. so as example you have 100 turn battle and 20 mb per file, are 2000mb combined. thats quiet a bit unfortuantely.

and files can go up to 50 or 60 megabytes for large battles, per minute.

[Surrender Monkey]

well, unfortuantely the files are not "that" small. a good sized battle got about 10 to 30 MB files to transfer every minute. so as example you have 100 turn battle and 20 mb per file, are 2000mb combined. thats quiet a bit unfortuantely.

and files can go up to 50 or 60 megabytes for large battles, per minute.

I have yet to see a PBEM over 5mb.. (Speaking 5000p infantry battle in CMBB)

Still even in the case of 50 megabytes would be handable

[stikkypixie]

I have yet to see a PBEM over 2mb..

Still even in the case of 50 megabytes would be handable

Are you talking about CMSF? Because I've rarely seen one less than 10Mb. Just curious.

[Ankh Morpork]

Are you talking about CMSF? Because I've rarely seen one less than 10Mb. Just curious.

No, He said CMBB.

Fair enough - I admit I had no idea they had increased that much. However, this is still no problem. Cos let's say a game would end up at 2gb. First of all you could make it optional to actually save the pbem's. Secondly - 2gb is nothing today concidering a "normal" hd now is 500gb+ atleast.

We're still not even close to the Terrabytes mentioned earlier.

[stikkypixie]

No, He said CMBB.

Fair enough - I admit I had no idea they had increased that much. However, this is still no problem. Cos let's say a game would end up at 2gb. First of all you could make it optional to actually save the pbem's. Secondly - 2gb is nothing today concidering a "normal" hd now is 500gb+ atleast.

We're still not even close to the Terrabytes mentioned earlier.

EDIT: Oops did not read the other posts . Even though 2Gig might not seem that big, you still need to be able to load everything into memory to have everything run smoothly. Loading a 60Mb save game takes can quite some time. I don't even want to try to load 2Gigs. Maybe they'll find a way to do it, but I wouldn't get your hopes up, it's not a very big priority.

[Ankh Morpork]

Hard drives are not the problem, it's the sending back and forth of the files which is a problem. You would need a really good connection to be able to send 10+Mb per minute.

Im sorry mate - I don't think I follow you anymore. What does the connection has to do with replaying a game on your own pc? Using data that must have been on your pc from the start??

Edit: The data must have been sent in the first place if you play against each other. So I really don't see your point.

Edit: I see now that you edited your post however, You do not need to load the full file into your memory. Its enough for the program to open the data file and stream its information. This takes next to no time at all.

[stikkypixie]

Im sorry mate - I don't think I follow you anymore. What does the connection has to do with replaying a game on your own pc? Using data that must have been on your pc from the start??

I was thinking of something else. Changed the post now.

[Surrender Monkey]

Hard drives are not the problem, it's the sending back and forth of the files which is a problem. You would need a really good connection to be able to send 10+Mb per minute.

I think perhaps you might miss the point , all relevant information is processed/collected sent and recieved anyway , regardless of playing by PBEM, TCP/IP, LAN or even hotseat - the data is there (being transferred between the players).

My point was to the assemble the datafiles after the game was finished - .

I do recall a utility for the first, CM: CMBO that did just that.

Or even simpler - sequencial and displaying reading of the already collected data . not much differenct from a Dvd playing the chapters in sequence.

[Ankh Morpork]

So - to make things clear.

We'd like the information in the pbem's combined in the end - the order turns removed - and an option to run through all the pbem's in one go without interuption only to see the battlefield once again and freely roam around with the cam to watch the full combat once again.

Edit: Using Pbem's as an example - might aswell be tcp/ip or hotseat data. In the end they are all the same data only different ways to transfer them

[Ankh Morpork]

I also hope the game will support high resolutons (5760*1080).

[ASL Veteran]

So - to make things clear.

We'd like the information in the pbem's combined in the end - the order turns removed - and an option to run through all the pbem's in one go without interuption only to see the battlefield once again and freely roam around with the cam to watch the full combat once again.

Edit: Using Pbem's as an example - might aswell be tcp/ip or hotseat data. In the end they are all the same data only different ways to transfer them

If you just theoretically combined your own PBEM files into one movie wouldn't you get a movie that showed the battle from only your perspective and at whatever fog of war level you had selected? How would you be able to combine the battle views of your opponents into this movie? It seems to me that you would have at least two data streams - one for the battle from your perspective and one for the battle from your opponent's perspective. In order to have a proper movie where you would be able to view the battle from either side then you would have to combine those files somehow wouldn't you? You may also find it desireable to be able to remove fog of war if you were trying to use the movie to learn tactics rather than using the movie to just relive fond memories of when you smoked that Panther.

I'm thinking that this is a lot more complicated than you guys are portraying. If it was as simple as just taking a bunch of PBEM files and linking them together then I think it probably would have been added as a feature by now.

[Battlefront.com]

I'm thinking that this is a lot more complicated than you guys are portraying. If it was as simple as just taking a bunch of PBEM files and linking them together then I think it probably would have been added as a feature by now.

Exactly If something is requested a lot, seems to be a no-brainer, and yet isn't in the game... chances are it isn't as easy for us to do as appears to the end user.

Full game replay is desirable. Always has been, always will be. We'll get around to it eventually.

Steve

[hoolaman]

My suggestion is to download the CMSF demo and really work with the menu. At first I found it a jarringly different approach from CMBO, however, after having used it for these last few years it is SO much more powerful that I don't think a return to CMBO's menu is a request which will even be entertained. The flexibility it gives you, the player, is phenomenal.

Of course, all the above assumes you have not either downloaded and used the demo or actually purchased CMSF. If you have, and you've tried the menu for several weeks, well, then you've obviously found it not to your liking.

Best of luck!

Ken

I think you might be confusing the rather cool flexibility of the orders available and the ease of the interface used to implement them.

Objectively CMSF's menus result in so many hundreds of unneccesary mouseclicks and keypresses that I can't believe anyone could claim to be a fan. Sure you can get used to anything but really they are absolute rubbish and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any improvement in sight.

For example to get a single unit to move to a position and face the way I want, I make the following mouse commands:

Click to select the unit

Click to select the M tab

Click to select the Move order

Click click on the desired move location

Right click to unselect the move order

Click to select the C tab

Click to select the Face order

Click on the waypoint

Click the desire facing direction

Right click to unselect the waypoint

Right Click again to unselect the unit.

In a more mainstream game designed by someone who does not wish RSI on their customers you could do the exact same thing with the mouse like this:

Click to select the unit

Right click to place a move order

Waypoint stays highlighted and you scroll mousewheel to modify the move order to the one you want if not the default

Drag mouse from the waypoint to give facing direction

Click on the ground to deselect the unit.

[Ankh Morpork]

If you just theoretically combined your own PBEM files into one movie wouldn't you get a movie that showed the battle from only your perspective and at whatever fog of war level you had selected? How would you be able to combine the battle views of your opponents into this movie? It seems to me that you would have at least two data streams - one for the battle from your perspective and one for the battle from your opponent's perspective. In order to have a proper movie where you would be able to view the battle from either side then you would have to combine those files somehow wouldn't you? You may also find it desireable to be able to remove fog of war if you were trying to use the movie to learn tactics rather than using the movie to just relive fond memories of when you smoked that Panther.

I'm thinking that this is a lot more complicated than you guys are portraying. If it was as simple as just taking a bunch of PBEM files and linking them together then I think it probably would have been added as a feature by now.

Actually, I do know its complicated. But not as complicated as you might imagine. I'm happy with viewing the battle from my side only. There actually is a program that is supposed to do exactly the thing I want for CMBB - however, we never got it to work. If a third party program can do it I'm pretty sure the developers should be able to do it aswell.

I do not wish to remove any fog either. Im pretty happy with the way it is + making it visible from the other players view can kind of ruin the gameplay alot since I don't want to know exactly how my opponent moved his units. I'd rather stick to just watching my own mistakes.

[akd]

I think you might be confusing the rather cool flexibility of the orders available and the ease of the interface used to implement them.

Objectively CMSF's menus result in so many hundreds of unneccesary mouseclicks and keypresses that I can't believe anyone could claim to be a fan. Sure you can get used to anything but really they are absolute rubbish and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any improvement in sight.

For example to get a single unit to move to a position and face the way I want, I make the following mouse commands:

Click to select the unit

Click to select the M tab

Click to select the Move order

Click click on the desired move location

Right click to unselect the move order

Click to select the C tab

Click to select the Face order

Click on the waypoint

Click the desire facing direction

Right click to unselect the waypoint

Right Click again to unselect the unit.

If you are issuing orders by mouse only (as I do), then you do the following:

Left click to select unit

SPACEBAR to open orders menu

MOUSE SCROLL to desired order and left click to select

Left click to place order

That is really not too bad. The only major problem I have with this system is if multiple waypoints are issue and I need to adjust a waypoint, I must delete all subsequent orders just to move the waypoint, then reissue them all over again.

[Ankh Morpork]

Will there be performance improvement with CM:BFN?

I just reinstalled shockforce and it didnt really run well on my Pc. Also, the ground was all black (using Ati 5870 - could be brand related?)

I will reduce quality and hopefully it will run better - I want to give it another go and see if the menu system is as good as You claim it to be. Was a long time since I last played the game and I do know that back then, the menu system was one of the reason I quit playing.

[akd]

Will there be performance improvement with CM:BFN?

I just reinstalled shockforce and it didnt really run well on my Pc. Also, the ground was all black (using Ati 5870 - could be brand related?)

Black ground textures are most likely the result of an incorrect installation.

[ASL Veteran]

I'm happy with viewing the battle from my side only.

I do not wish to remove any fog either. Im pretty happy with the way it is + making it visible from the other players view can kind of ruin the gameplay alot since I don't want to know exactly how my opponent moved his units. I'd rather stick to just watching my own mistakes.

Aahhhhhh, well my friend that might work for you, but if Battlefront is going to add a feature like full movie playback Battlefront can't just add it to meet your standards and your standards alone. It would have to be added such that whoever desired that feature would be able to use it the way they wanted to, and those ways might differ from what you would use it for. Naturally that would include removing fog of war if desired and viewing the battle from your opponents perspective. What might work for you might be hopelessly broken and pointless to player X who has been waiting for this feature for the last ten years.