C2 Explanation

[gianluca74]

Hi all,

could someone indicate to me some link that explain The C2 feature?

I read the manual, but after a lot of test in game (Iron skill) i'm really confused.

It seem to me that the information sharing is never updated.

Example :

Unit A spot an enemy, the unit have a good communication with Platoon HQ,

after a while the HQ acquires the signal but he never know what type of enemy Unit A have spotted, from HQ perspective i can only see the "?" marker.

Is working as intended?

Thanks in advance to everyone who may help me, and sorry for my english.

[stikkypixie]

Yes this is how it is supposed to work. The markers can be bright or faded indicating how recent the information is. The HQ unit will then pass the information to its HQ and to its subordinates (so platoon HQ to its own squads and to its Company HQ) if they are in contact. These units will also "see" the ?, even if there is no LOS.

If the ? is bright for a particular unit, that unit will have a small spotting bonus. Having a good C2 also eliminates false contacts, where one unit is reported many times which gives you a better overview of the battlefield.

And finally units with good C2 will fight better.

Hope this helps.

[zwobot]

Not to forget that spotters with (good) C2 links can call in fire missions more quickly.

[Holman]

I notice that units will sometimes turn towards a threat even if they haven't spotted it, but they know from another unit that it is there. I feel sure that I've seen tanks orient themselves towards expected threats this way, even when their movement ended with them pointing in a different direction.

Am I seeing things, or is this a result of the C2 modeling?

[Dietrich]

As of v1.30, many times I've seen a Leopard 2A6 (of whichever army) pop smoke and traverse its turret in a certain direction well before any <?> appears or before any misfired ATGM augers in. However, as of v1.30 I haven't yet played with any non-NATO-module forces, so I don't know if this is an indication of the Leopard 2's sensor capabilities or a result of more dynamic tank-commander tacAI.

Before v1.30, the T-90SA was (as far as I had observed) the only tank to behave similarly, apparently thanks to its partial Shtora countermeasures suite—when lazed, the tank pops smoke and begins evasive maneuvers, typically by reversing into cover. As far as I had noticed (in a little under two years of playing the game), in the vast majority of other cases, a tank would pop smoke after taking a hit from an unspotted enemy.

[Waaarg]

Here is a really good recent thread. I found it very helpful.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=93303

[gianluca74]

Thanks to all for the answers, now things are more clear.

The HQ unit will then pass the information to its HQ and to its subordinates (so platoon HQ to its own squads and to its Company HQ) if they are in contact. These units will also "see" the ?, even if there is no LOS.

This applies also to my unit when i play Iron mode?

I try to explain better :

Unit A (blue force) start moving to x location,the unit has a good communication with Platoon HQ(radio + FPDA).

From the point of view of Platoon HQ after a while the unit A disappear, after which it reappear but i can see only the symbol "?", and never more the exact symbol of unit type.

Is this correct?

[hoolaman]

I think anything that can't be directly seen will show up as a <?>

If you have a strong <?> as opposed to a faded one, then the good C2 links mean that your HQ unit knows the exact location of that unit, though what unit it is is not displayed to the player.

Friendly spotting is more of an annoyance imo. You can still do the same things, just less easily.

[stikkypixie]

Thanks to all for the answers, now things are more clear.

This applies also to my unit when i play Iron mode?

I try to explain better :

Unit A (blue force) start moving to x location,the unit has a good communication with Platoon HQ(radio + FPDA).

From the point of view of Platoon HQ after a while the unit A disappear, after which it reappear but i can see only the symbol "?", and never more the exact symbol of unit type.

Is this correct?

I don't play Iron, but as far as I understand the only difference with iron and elite is that when you click a unit of your own, you see all the units that it can see (enemy and friendly). So what you're seeing, I guess is normal. If you don't have any unit selected you should be able to see all troops.

Iron just makes playing more of a hassle, as in my opinion it doesn't add more to the challenge.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Iron just makes playing more of a hassle, as in my opinion it doesn't add more to the challenge.

I recently played a few scenarios on Iron, but it can also be a help to see what every unit is aware of.

I don't find it much of a hassle, when you plan in general view, and only select your unit when plotting orders.

[stikkypixie]

I recently played a few scenarios on Iron, but it can also be a help to see what every unit is aware of.

I don't find it much of a hassle, when you plan in general view, and only select your unit when plotting orders.

Are you talking about being aware of other friendly units? For me it doesn't add much as for me maintaining C2 is quite intuitive.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Are you talking about being aware of other friendly units?

Yes, you get an immediate picture of the context of a unit, while before I rarely paid attention to the command status, or didn't have a clear picture of what that meant

[stikkypixie]

Yes, you get an immediate picture of the context of a unit, while before I rarely paid attention to the command status, or didn't have a clear picture of what that meant

I never thought about it that way. Cool.

[HintJ]

For the German Panzerpioneer platoon, it seems none of the infantry teams (including the platoon leader!) has a man-carried radio! The APC's have radios, but as soon as the infantry teams dismount then C2 must be audio or visual with the platoon leader, or fall out of C2.

Am I getting that right? And if I am, why during the setup phase, if I dismount the HQ unit, and place him on the other side of the map away from his platoon, his unit report list in the bottom of the GUI shows nothing but green crosses, indicating he is in C2 contact with all his units.

The leader has no radio, no line of sight, and obviously no voice command of his units from that distance, and still all his units show green crosses in the unit report--see pg. 52-53 in manual ver 1.20.

Huh? Someone who understands please explain.

[Federico]

The same happens with the dutch army....

[Lanzfeld]

I think there has been a C2 bug for a long time.

I even sent Steve a save file but I never heard back from him. I had a test setup that had a solid/vet/not under fire sniper team with radio and RPDA never get a position report of the enemy spotted by a squad. The squad reported it to the HQ, the HQ reported it to the Company HQ, but the Company HQ never would report it to the snipers, even after 20 minutes of testing. I watched the report go up the chain in the test (it was cool to see actually) but it never went the full route. Not sure why and I have seen this before and it is frustrating.

[Lanzfeld]

Oh....and I have a C2 question.

Now I know that having my squad in C2 (green light) with their immediate HQ is good for all the obvious reasons.

BUT.....if the squads HQ unit in NOT in C2 (red light) with, say the Company HQ will that effect the Squads fighting ability from a moral standpoint? So the squad is IN C2 with their HQ but the HQ is NOT IN C2 with their higher ups. Will it effect the squad or just the squads HQ?

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, we have v1.31 coming up soon that fixes the C2 problem for German and Dutch troops, and IIRC a few Canadians here and there. Somehow, at some late point in development, a bit of data got squished up and a bunch of guys who should have radios (and once did) don't. Must have happened as we were wrapping things up because the testers would have noticed. They were also likely playing with games saved prior to the data munge.

Steve

[Chops]

Steve, thanks for the update. Can you please speak to Lanzfelds two posts above. I have seen some strange stuff with C2 also, prior to NATO.

[Lanzfeld]

Steve? Are you asking Charles?

Please?

Also in CM1 when my platoon HQ was killed I could use my Company HQ to keep the men in command. This is not possible in CMSF?

[Battlefront.com]

The only thing I can think of, off the top my head, is that the Snipers aren't tied into the on-map C2 chain. AFAIK information doesn't go off map (so to speak) and then back on map. The reasoning, thinking back a couple of years, is we didn't want to assume that the on-map units were linked off-map.

Remember that in CMx1 there was no C2 beyond the Platoon level. Company and Battalion HQs were just there for morale and movement delay reductions. There was no information sharing at all. In CMx2 if an intermediate HQ is eliminated then you need to have a higher HQ basically within shouting range or any C2 effects. The thinking behind this is C2, even Blue's C2, is far from perfect in the real world. If you read about HQs getting disrupted in Iraq, for example, you might very well have seen that in that instance someone was cut off for quite a while. I can't remember if FBCB2 ignores chain of command. It should.

Steve

[Lanzfeld]

FWIW the Company HQ was on the map with the snipers. This same group of guys were the snipers C2 connection (green dot).

[Erik Springelkamp]

Where are attached units from other formations in the command chain, like engineers?

[Lanzfeld]

I dont think so. It doesnt matter. The simple problem was that a sniper team in good C2 was not getting an enemy position via C2 through their company CO.