Whatever happened to basements?

[TheVulture]

To quote from an old (2005) Steve post on the subject of buildings:

Building structures

I don't want to get into too many details about buildings just yet, but I do want to hit the high points (in no particular order). One thing to keep in mind is that the scenario designer has a lot of flexibility when it comes to what a specific building will be like. So anything in the following list that hints at choices means a choice for the scenario designer.

1. Many stories (levels) now possible. I don't know what the limit will be, but we'll probably cap it at 6. Anything above that is problematic and quite useless from a game standpoint. These will be directly simulated, not abstracted.

2. Roof tops can be used if there is access to them.

3. Basements are an option for a building now. If I get my way there will be two types... one that has windows and one that does not. Up to Charles.

4. Stairs are directly simulated. However, stairs are somewhat abstracted still. There is somewhat of a choice about where to locate them.

5. Interior rooms are abstractly simulated. There is a choice about how this is simulated.

6. Buildings are deformable. Yes, this means specific, individual walls can be damaged. Not quite sure how far we'll be able to take structural failures in the first game. Buildings in general are something we expect to improve from title to title (especially because of the hardware issues).

7. Windows and doors are directly simulated. Walls can have either doors, windows, doors and windows, or nothing at all. This affects entry/exit possibilities as well as fighting positions.

8. Mouseholing is now possible.

9. Building variety, in terms of shape and size, is pretty much up to the scenario designer. Want buildings all mashed together with doors and windows on the same sides? Done. Want buildings that are long and short next to ones that are tall and skinny? No problem.

10. Buildings can now be placed on two different axis... 90deg and 45deg. We had wanted to make it four different axis (90, 22.5, 45, and 67.5) but Charles nearly had a stroke when we talked about this. His last words before passing out were "dude... you're insane! Do you know how much code and computer power that would take?!?". Then there was silence over the phone and later I could hear his wife giving Charles' jar an emergency boost from one WineCape's best bottles of vino. With his ability to think restored I promised to never mention it again (well, at least until the second game)

11. Surrounding terrain can now be pressed right up against a building, or extremely near to it (depending on circumstances). This means you can have small alleyways, streets right in front, trees right next to, etc.

12. With the 1m x 1m terrain mesh underlying the terrain, there should be no major problems with putting buildings on slopes. Not quite sure if it is a foolproof thing, but hopefully it is.

While most of this accurately describes CMSF, I've bolded the ones that stand out as things that were said to be in, but turned out not to be. Were these dropped because it was oo problematic to get them in working condition for the time of release? And will they make a return at some point in the future?

Or are 5 and 8 - choices about interior walls and mouseholing - covered by the possibility composite buildings where you have two or more buildings next to each other with their various shared internal wall options (plus the 'blast' command, which arguably could be considered as mouseholing under some circumstances; but I'd assumed they meant more of digging holes through internal walls via non-explosive means).

[benpark]

Good question that should stay nearer to the top for comment by the BFC.

[hoolaman]

I think there was a bunch of extra MOUT stuff that was planned or at least designed. I think the urban breaching kit even made it into the manual or the mousepad thingo, this is supposed to be SWAT style kit to smash down locked doors. Guess what, no locked doors either. I imagine much of it stayed on the drawing board, as we know there wasn't even time to code some of the basics before release.

You could bold "if you have access to them" in relation to roofs too. That would be cool and that isn't in there. I'd guess that the stairs being abstracted as mentioned would look a lot like now in practice, but being able to choose where they are located would be interesting. Having stair access at only one end of a large building, or not having access to the roof would create interesting situations.

Of course what we have is arguably better as it is simple and effective and doesn't require excessive micro management. The best one on the list is having a choice about the type or amount of clutter in an interior room.

[akd]

Basements will certainly be necessary for the WWII titles.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Necessary? Desirable, yes. But so far I can't recall a game with basements, so I think necessary is streching it just a wee bit.

[flamingknives]

3. Charles said no, perhaps?

4. No choice for you?

5. The choice has been made.

8. Mouseholing is possible. Blowing through walls to allow passage between buildings.

[Jonny(FGM)]

8. Mouseholing is possible. Blowing through walls to allow passage between buildings.

It's not true mouseholing though

With mouse-holing, combatants are able to move around an urban battlefield under cover, without needing to expose themselves to enemy fire or observation. A typical passage is large enough for a single file of soldiers. Large, unrestricted holes can compromise the structural integrity of the building, and offer little cover from opposing forces.

also as far as i'm aware there is no way to blast through a wall from within a building without sending the team with the demo charges through. Not allways what you want to do.

[flamingknives]

In a tactical timeframe, how else does one get through a wall other than with a demo charge? If you mean how to avoid the breaching team going through the gap, I think that the trick is to set them more than one action point from the wall to be breached, then issue a breach command up to the wall to be breached.

[Jonny(FGM)]

In a tactical timeframe, how else does one get through a wall other than with a demo charge? If you mean how to avoid the breaching team going through the gap,

Tank rounds, small arms fire, entrenchment tools, of course the last 2 are will take some time and are only practical for non reinforced walls, but thats all we seem to have in CMSF

Mouse holes can be made in light interior walls by hand or with small arms. More substantial walls require the use of explosives such as a satchel charge, or a large caliber, vehicle-mounted cannon or tank gun.[4]

https://rdl.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/23583-1/FM/3-21.8/appf.htm

Edit: Thinking about it, perhaps by light walls they mean plasterboard walls?

I think that the trick is to set them more than one action point from the wall to be breached, then issue a breach command up to the wall to be breached.

yes i have no problem not sending the breaching team through the breach when the unit is outside, as you can give a blast command to the middle of the wall and then tell them to run away straight after. But as far as im aware there's no way to do this if you're blasting between buildings

[Alan8325]

I wonder why adding new angles for buildings to be placed at (#10) would be so difficult to code? It would definitely make it easier to replicate real-life areas. Anyone know if this will be in CM:Normandy? I'm guessing, based on Charles' reaction, that it would be a "no."

[Jonny(FGM)]

As a major major guess i would say it'd be down to the LOS implications but thats probably wrong

[Sheppy]

hi try this - take a building in the editor and make it's elevation tile 2m lower than the surrounding terrain.

[Jonny(FGM)]

But then won't the only way into the building be through the "basement"?

[Sheppy]

that is correct, although the impact on gameplay is quite minimal and they will function as you would expect a basement or cellar to function. mostly a place to hide.

[Jonny(FGM)]

I may have to try that. Have you tried giving the 1st floor (the new "ground" floor) a balcony with no walls? I've used that technique to give access to adjacent rooftops.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Ah no it doesn't work, the troops pass straight through the balcony lol. Could make for extra cover for the basement though, but then again the troops would basically sit outside the house if they were put on the new "ground" floor

[Jonny(FGM)]

Oh wait mebbe it does work! lol, it didn't seem to work on the way in but it worked on the way out :s.

*goes to make a video*

[Jonny(FGM)]

ok video here (can we pleeeeeaaaase have video embedding turned on? i know the forum software can do it)

Edit: Note, if the squad isn't given a face order on level 2 to make them go onto the balcony they will exit the same way they entered.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Well i tried taking all the floors off of the ground floor, they didn't like it lol.

They refused to enter the building, the order was cancelled as soon as it was issued. Also these balconies at ground level seem to make strange things happen.

I don't think i'll be using this technique as those underground entry points will make ridiculously good ambush points.

[Sheppy]

don't use balconies. add a door - make sure the gradient isn't too steep. balconies are just not very well done in this game.

[akd]

Necessary? Desirable, yes. But so far I can't recall a game with basements, so I think necessary is streching it just a wee bit.

Of course nothing is necessary. We don't have to have hedgerows, churches, streams, or fields, but in order to depict combat in urban terrain in Europe during WWII, yes, basements are necessary. They were used ubiquitously for cover and often fortified, and presented a special tactical challenge due to their near immunity to most direct and indirect fire. US infantry at times cleared whole blocks by mouseholeing from basement to basement.

I've experimented with making ad hoc basements in SF, but it does not work well and looks ridiculous. All we really need is structures that can be placed in a "crater" with truly vertical sides and the code to allow entrance and exit from upper floors onto adjacent terrain (rather than other structures).