The promised bone: the IFVs

[Ryujin]

I would like to know if CMx2 can model "cone effect" weapons such as ABMs, flechette munitions and "canister" type rounds fired from large caliber guns.

Well, they've pretty carefully avoided cluster bombs, ICM, canister, etc. So I would hazard a "no".

It already does cone shaped AOE for anti personal artillery. Direct fire conical AOE shouldn't be too hard.

These seem to be a variation on the usual explosion handling, not so much a cone of projectiles that could be stopped by cover or such and would require more complex special effects. The game lags a bit when the A-10 fires the GAU-8, a canister round would probably be even worse.

[Alan8325]

Well I remember a few patches ago there used to be an error where a few weapons, such as the Mk19, would fire several projectiles at exactly the same time with sort of a shotgun-like effect. Maybe for cone weapons they can just bring that back in a way.

[flamingknives]

British Harriers and Apaches already fire flechette munitions.

British 40mm GMG already fire airburst munitions.

[Ryujin]

British Harriers and Apaches already fire flechette munitions.

British 40mm GMG already fire airburst munitions.

I've never seen either in all my time playing! I'll have to look for that... how do you get the GMG to do airbursts?

[Alan8325]

I've never seen either in all my time playing! I'll have to look for that... how do you get the GMG to do airbursts?

The GMG has to be dismounted to see the airburst (PPHE) in the ammo tab, and the crew only seems to use it once HEDP is depleted, even against personnel targets. Once they start using PPHE it looks just like small mortar airbursts with the dust kicked up underneath.

I've never seen flechette rockets used by any aircraft either.

[Paper Tiger]

British 40mm Grenade Launcher firing airburst ammo...

Dismounted.

Now you've seen it

[Ryujin]

Awesome! I guess I must not have payed enough attention

[Thomm]

Now you've seen it

Elected screen shot of the month by ... me!

Best regards,

Thomm

[MikeyD]

British Harriers and Apaches already fire flechette munitions.

I must be out of touch. Do they? I thought flechette munitions have been banned internationally. Now that I recall, I think the Brits field a triple-dart kinetic penetrator munition that they redesignated "NOT flechettes" in order to get around the ban.

[flamingknives]

Small arms flechettes are frowned upon as causing unnecessary suffering, but anti-materiel flechettes are not. If they had then APFSDS would also be an issue. Rocket launched flechettes are quite large - probably larger than many bullets.

[Jonny(FGM)]

The GMG has to be dismounted to see the airburst (PPHE) in the ammo tab, and the crew only seems to use it once HEDP is depleted, even against personnel targets.

Just ran a quick test myself and the GMG crew fired off the PPHE shells first before the HEDP. They started out dismounted however (Mech Fire Support Plt) so perhaps if the crew dismounts from a (M)WMIK they already have the HEDP belt loaded and don't switch to the PPHE?

[Alan8325]

Yes, the GMG crew that I had in mind did dismount from a vehicle. I haven't tried playing around with a GMG that started out dismounted, but I'll take your word for it. I do not know if the airburst effect is conical though. Is it conical straight down like the artillery airbursts?

As for flechettes, everything I'm reading is saying that there currently is no such thing as a ban on them, but there are several websites saying that there should be one. There are some stories of 105mm flechette (APERS-T?) rounds in use with the IDF, controversially of course. As for flechettes use in the U.S., I can't find any info on historical use of them more recently than Vietnam, but also nothing to indicate that the U.S. has foregone using them.

Munitions still in inventory and possibly use with the U.S. include M546 APERS-T 105mm and M255 70mm rocket.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m546.htm

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/hydra-70.htm

The above pages are relatively old (~1999-2000), so I found a more recent Navy document (~2007-2008) discussing the methods of modifying Army M255 flechette rockets to work with Navy launchers.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007fuze/SessionVA/goedert1600.pdf

[Damian90]

As for flechettes use in the U.S., I can't find any info on historical use of them more recently than Vietnam, but also nothing to indicate that the U.S. has foregone using them.

M1 tanks in Iraq sometimes were equiped with M1028 ammo, maybe it is not pure flechettes but more likely big 120mm shotgun rounds.

[flamingknives]

http://www.bristol.ca/Downloads/rotary%20wing%20PDF.pdf

http://www.bristol.ca/Downloads/fixed%20wing%20PDF.pdf

The only legitimate complaint against flechettes relates to small arms flechettes. These were small and thin. This meant that when they hit a human they would tend to bend into a hook, which made them exceptionally difficult to remove. On top of that, they were almost invisible to x-ray.

The rocket-launched GPF and FAT flechettes are far from subtle in comparison.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

It will never cease to amaze me the ways that it is okay to mangle human beings in war, and the ways that it is not.

[akd]

Small arms flechettes are frowned upon as causing unnecessary suffering, but anti-materiel flechettes are not. If they had then APFSDS would also be an issue. Rocket launched flechettes are quite large - probably larger than many bullets.

Ed Macy goes into great detail on the flechette rockets used by British Apaches in Afghanistan in his book Apache. Off the top of my head, those particular flechettes are five inches long.