The promised bone: the IFVs

[Sivodsi]

Bejeezus, the CV9035's gun looks big for its caliber!

- and there is a mistake in its weight, as its supposed to be the other extreme to the lightweight LAV, as noticed in the sticky thread

[MeatEtr]

I can't read any of the text, the pic is too small.

[slug88]

I can't read any of the text, the pic is too small.

From the front page:

[Sivodsi]

What's the AP capability of the CV9035s 35/50 gun? Would it be able to take out the older soviet origin MBTs from the front?

[primarch359]

The 9030's don't have airburst like the 9040 or do they

[Damian90]

Bejeezus, the CV9035's gun looks big for its caliber!

It is good as it is, there is not only barrel itself but it's thermal isolation also.

- and there is a mistake in its weight, as its supposed to be the other extreme to the lightweight LAV, as noticed in the sticky thread

Well, weight seems to be good, maybe even underestimated, it seems that CV9035 got armor upgrades, and 23 tons is for CV9040A or CV9040B, so maybe CV9035 is closer to SPz Marder 1A3/A5, M2A3/M3A3 with uparmoring allready weight's a bit more than 30 tons.

What's the AP capability of the CV9035s 35/50 gun? Would it be able to take out the older soviet origin MBTs from the front?

No, maybe when it hit in the weak spot like gun mantle, but from my sources 35mm APDS make around 90mm RHA penetratin level from 1 km. T-54/55 series got more than 150mm RHA on the front, around 200mm RHA IRCC. Dunno if newer rounds (APFSDS) can make more than ~90mm RHA over 1km.

Stil it is nasty calliber, from the side it can probably perforate armor of the older tanks from closer range and from the rear disable all tanks, even the best ones... heh older and smaller 25mm calliber M242 can do that, so 35mm is a real killer in this case.

The 9030's don't have airburst like the 9040 or do they

Yes they have, You think what is this thing on the barrel muzzle? It is a fuze programmer and is coneccted via data link with FCS.

[Damian90]

Ok I check better sources for 35mm KE ammo penetration level. 35mm APDS got ~110mm RHA, range from this penetration is achieved unknown.

35mm APFSDS got ~170mm RHA, range also unknown.

[afreu]

Can't wait until preorder is available.

[akd]

Well, weight seems to be good, maybe even underestimated, it seems that CV9035 got armor upgrades, and 23 tons is for CV9040A or CV9040B, so maybe CV9035 is closer to SPz Marder 1A3/A5, M2A3/M3A3 with uparmoring allready weight's a bit more than 30 tons.

Seems that weight for CV9035NL is 32-35 tonnes (depending on armor package).

[Sequoia]

Since the vehicles carry 6-7 infantrymen, how big are mech infantry squads in each of the 3 armies?

[Jonny(FGM)]

Since the vehicles carry 6-7 infantrymen, how big are mech infantry squads in each of the 3 armies?

I would guess 6 or 7 ...... unless they do what the US HBCTs do

[Rob Deans]

In Canada, the section is 10 men with seven in the dismounted section and a vehicle crew of 3. The vehicle is part of the section with the section commander getting out on the ground and the second in command staying in the vehicle as its commander. There have been differences in this setup with the commander staying in the vehcle and the 2ic on the ground......

[Ryujin]

I wonder how they plan to implement airburst rounds (command-wise). I don't know if the 30mm/35mm guns are like the 40mm and use special rounds (i.e. limited number of programmable pre-fragmented rounds) or if it's every HE round. The question is with target and target light, how do you tell it to use airburst (as light tends to be coax)?

So I'm still advocating the addition of "target special" on some units (like these and snipers).

[c3k]

LOL! You've got me thinking about all the threads I started or added to asking to implement a change to the targeting UI. Main gun/coax should be separately commanded. Each should be able to be given a TARGET or TARGET LIGHT (yes, I know, they're coaxial; the main gun should always get priority). That would let the TC's or Loaders MG be targeted on an area target separately from the main targeting system. Toss in a similar approach to snipers and their security element. How many times have I posted about that?

Still, these are tweaks, not gamebreakers.

Ken

[akd]

I wonder how they plan to implement airburst rounds (command-wise). I don't know if the 30mm/35mm guns are like the 40mm and use special rounds (i.e. limited number of programmable pre-fragmented rounds) or if it's every HE round. The question is with target and target light, how do you tell it to use airburst (as light tends to be coax)?

So I'm still advocating the addition of "target special" on some units (like these and snipers).

I suppose it could involve some simple logic, like if there is no direct target visible (or a direct target is visible and then lost after targeting) and the grid square contains a cover object like a wall, trench or rooftop, air burst area fire is used against the grid square/roof. Also could perhaps allow targeting one square beyond the grid square where LOS is blocked, thus allowing airburst just over the crest of hill, for example (something similar is already in the game with the British 50mm mortar).

However, what I've read about the 35mm x 228 KETF ABM ammunition is that it is not very effective in these scenarios because it directs fragmentation in a cone forward rather than backwards, down and to the sides (designed as anti-aircraft/anti-missile munitions). I know 35x228mm ground-to-ground ABM ammunition is being made by Rheinmetall, but not sure if it was fielded by the Dutch in 2008 (or even today).

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/index.php?fid=3526&qid=451&qpage=25〈=3&query=35mm

http://www.defencemanagement.com/feature_story.asp?id=9856

[Earl Grey]

Oh, I believe they stand a comparatively good chance against MBTs, even from the front (given that the mBT doesn't take them out first). They might not be able to take out a MBT from the front, but the cannons can damage every piece of equipment OUTSIDE of the turret which effectively makes the tank something of a sitting duck. How does a tank gunner aim with all optics destroyed? Happened to me often enough when I tried to get those LAVS...

[Ryujin]

I'm not so sure it works like that. Most likely the day optics will be fine and unless the IFVs get the drop the tank, not the other way around, odds are very much not in their favor.

One shot from the tank will obliterate the IFV, one burst from the autocannon may take out the thermal optics if presenet, but the day optics are a very small target and likely still functional. So chances are good the IFV will get blown away anyhow.

I haven't played as the Syrians with tanks vs IFVs much, but I think the day optics should be fine. Really, really small target. This tactic never seems to help BMP-2s vs my Abrams at least. Just scuff the paint and maybe damages the thermal.

I think they could damage the tank and maybe escape, but it would probably be better to just escape in the first place. I think a lot of countries use IR blocking smoke with the CV90s, best to fire that and throw it in reverse.

[Chainsaw]

Earl Grey: when all the fancy optics are turned unusable the tank gunner just switch to his GAS, Gunners Auxiliary Sight. its zeroed at 1200m mostly but can be changed. so your'e smoked anyway.

and going head to head with a MTB is stupid for a IFV. Sweden uses CV9040 wich has a really potent gun, it can nail most modern MBTs side and rear with a few shots. In the begining on exercises the CV90 crews was stupidly engaging MBTs whenever they got the chance. they got whiped out damn fast, untill we hade same casualty rate as we had with the old PBV302. so they learned to call in the tanks instead as they should. then they casualty rate dropped to "normal" so to say.

The fact the gun can penetrate sides of MBTs doesnt mean they should engage MBTs, more that they can be used in self defence in pressed situations.

[Earl Grey]

You usually shouldn't go head to head, correct. But either T-55 don't have auxiliary sights or my gunner was just to stupid to fire on the LAV sitting about 250m away from him and peppering it with 25mm shots (that was at night, though). Mabe I have just been lucky/unlucky?

BMPs are a bit better off (and so will be the Marder) because they do have AT missiles - but that will require diffferent tactics altogether.

[Chainsaw]

oh T-55s. well i think they have GAS but the downside with GAS is that it has no own TIS so in the dark it needs a seperate light source. while the LAV does have TIS... Anyway the T-55s night vision capability sucks anyway, active IR if I dont remember wrong.

[Ryujin]

You usually shouldn't go head to head, correct. But either T-55 don't have auxiliary sights or my gunner was just to stupid to fire on the LAV sitting about 250m away from him and peppering it with 25mm shots (that was at night, though). Mabe I have just been lucky/unlucky?

BMPs are a bit better off (and so will be the Marder) because they do have AT missiles - but that will require diffferent tactics altogether.

Check the suppression, sometimes Syrian armor crews will freeze up or panic under fire, even if it's pretty light. Being a T55 it was probably a reserve crew who would panic if the BLUFOR so much as look in their direction. Not to mention the T55 has horrible situational awareness when buttoned up.

The large caliber auto cannons should be used with the same basic principles as the ATGMs, ambush weapons where you can get the first shot off at weak armor. Though the ATGMs are obviously much more effective.

[Earl Grey]

oh T-55s. well i think they have GAS but the downside with GAS is that it has no own TIS so in the dark it needs a seperate light source. while the LAV does have TIS... Anyway the T-55s night vision capability sucks anyway, active IR if I dont remember wrong.

So at least at night it works against... well... crappy old tanks. Ah whatever, I was just thinking positive.

Check the suppression, sometimes Syrian armor crews will freeze up or panic under fire, even if it's pretty light. Being a T55 it was probably a reserve crew who would panic if the BLUFOR so much as look in their direction. Not to mention the T55 has horrible situational awareness when buttoned up.

Possible that it was suppression. I just thought I'd be able to make IFVs more than they are. I give myself a few poitns for a good try, though.

[Chainsaw]

actually yes, in darkness where older T- series /BMPs are totally blind you can take the risk of long range firing at them. but its a risk because there is still a random chance they spot you and nail you. but hey, war is risks

[Alan8325]

However, what I've read about the 35mm x 228 KETF ABM ammunition is that it is not very effective in these scenarios because it directs fragmentation in a cone forward rather than backwards, down and to the sides (designed as anti-aircraft/anti-missile munitions).

I would like to know if CMx2 can model "cone effect" weapons such as ABMs, flechette munitions and "canister" type rounds fired from large caliber guns.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

It already does cone shaped AOE for anti personal artillery. Direct fire conical AOE shouldn't be too hard.