DRM workaround issue?

[Wodin]

If you get an offline license key couldn't you just keep hold of it and very time you say have to rebuild your system and you fogot to unlicense you could just use your offline license when you reinstall them game?

I'm sure I forgot to unlicense when I got a new PC. I'm not on the net anymore where my gaming rig is so I had to get an offline license and I didn't need to ask for the key to be released.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

You get two licenses.

[Schrullenhaft]

No, the license key is 'attached' to the computer it gets licensed/activated on. Some details about the computer and OS are recorded when you 'activate' your license key and that is true whether online or offline. So you CANNOT move your activated software to another computer/OS and have it remain licensed/activated. I'm not absolutely certain when it comes to reinstalls of the same OS on the same hardware, but I wouldn't be surprised if the software no longer thought it was licensed. There are registry keys involved too, so an OS reinstall can disrupt the licensing state of the game.

The major limitation with offline licensing is that there is no way to UNLICENSE without going online with that particular computer. In other words, if an offline license is needed for a computer that can't get onto the Internet, then that license key can't be unlicensed/deactivated on that computer if it can't get on the Internet to perform the unlicensing. This can cause problems in some situations where you want to upgrade to something else, etc. That computer has to be able to get onto the Internet in order to remove that license activation.

A license key can be licensed and unlicensed countless times, but only two installations can have the license key 'active' at the same time. Uninstalling a game DOES NOT UNLICENSE it. These are separate actions, though some of the uninstallers will prompt to unlicense the game, while many others will not. You need to UNLICENSE the game BEFORE performing any of the following:

1) Reformatting the hard drive ('clean' OS reinstalls, etc.).

2) Reinstalling or Upgrading the OS.

3) Any major hardware changes, primarily any of the following: a new motherboard, a new CPU, a new video card (new non-boot hard drives should not be an issue).

4) Disposing/selling the computer or boot hard drive.

5) Uninstalling the game permanently from a computer.

[Redwolf]

I thought the BFC license does allow you to mess with the hardware?

[Schrullenhaft]

You can mess with the hardware, but it is HIGHLY suggested that you unlicense the game first, perform the hardware change and then relicense it. Some hardware changes will come up as a machine mis-match for the license, which makes the assumption that it is running on a different computer than intended - and thus will come up as being unlicensed.

[Wodin]

Its a totally new PC as the other died on me.

[Wodin]

So it looks like now Im in a mess. As the first licence was on a PC that died so couldn't deactivate and my new one isnt online so its an offline licence which means I cant deactivate. Which means I can never uninstall the game again...nor install it on another PC when its time to upgrade!

Ho hum....the joys of DRM.

[Schrullenhaft]

IF you can connect that computer to the internet (even temporarily), then you can unlicense it. If you can't, then, correct, you will be unable to unlicense that install. There is no offline unlicensing since that would be a security hole, so that feature isn't provided.

If you have a crash or some other disaster with a computer and attempts at relicensing on another computer result in an 'error 11', then we can do something called a 'reset'. This will clear the activations on a license so that it can be used again. However this 'reset' comes with a MAJOR CAVEAT. We can only perform a reset a few times before the LICENSE BECOMES INACTIVATED and can no longer be used; requiring you to repurchase the game to get another license key. So we try to limit those occasions when we perform resets to the license key.

Each license key has two concurrent activations available to it (though some 'bundles' use up both activations to play the entire bundle if they come with just one license key). We will usually perform the reset if the user gets an 'error 11' and they have NO OTHER GAMES ACTIVATED UNDER THAT LICENSE KEY. So the second activation is more of a security measure / backup than a RIGHT to play the game on a second computer.

[Wodin]

Cool so when I finally get back online with my gaming rig I can then unlicence. Thats great, I mis read somehwere that even if I got back online I couldn't unlicense.

Thanks

[Redwolf]

Cool so when I finally get back online with my gaming rig I can then unlicence. Thats great, I mis read somehwere that even if I got back online I couldn't unlicense.

If you reinstalled windoze (or have a new install on a new harddrive) you can't.

[Wodin]

Confused now.

Why oh why did Battlefront take this DRM option. Matrix Games has the best user freindly DRM.

Can't patch the game without a valid serial number.

[JonS]

IF you can connect that computer to the internet (even temporarily), then you can unlicense it. If you can't, then, correct, you will be unable to unlicense that install. There is no offline unlicensing since that would be a security hole, so that feature isn't provided.

Small quibble there: when it comes to DRM, there are absolutely ZERO 'features.' From a users perspective, there are only greater and lesser intrusions, all of them unwated and all of them worthless.

I never wake up in the morning and think "gee, wouldn't it be great if I could do less with my computer than I did yesterday."

[Schrullenhaft]

The 'feature' that I speak of is strictly the ability to unlicense the game off line (which doesn't exist).

I'm not here to waste my time and argue the benefits and detractions of DRM. That is a business decision that has become necessary with the proliferation of of stolen/cracked software on the internet.

No DRM system is perfect. No DRM system is wanted by customers and if life were perfect we wouldn't need a DRM system. But we don't live in that Utopia and thus need a DRM system of some sort to remain in business. I'm sure it annoys people and it has affected sales, but it is either that or just stop making games. It is literally that cut-and-dried as to how much of a difference this makes to remaining in business.

As to the original poster's confusion. Please read the following closely:

A license key can be licensed and unlicensed countless times, but only two installations can have the license key 'active' at the same time. Uninstalling a game DOES NOT UNLICENSE it. These are separate actions, though some of the uninstallers will prompt to unlicense the game, while many others will not. You need to UNLICENSE the game BEFORE performing any of the following:

1) Reformatting the hard drive ('clean' OS reinstalls, etc.).

2) Reinstalling or Upgrading the OS.

3) Any major hardware changes, primarily any of the following: a new motherboard, a new CPU, a new video card (new non-boot hard drives should not be an issue).

4) Disposing/selling the computer or boot hard drive.

5) Uninstalling the game permanently from a computer.

If you have licensed a game in an off-line mode and then you need to do any of the previously mentioned activities BEFORE UNLICENSING, then you may 'lose an activation'. If you lose both of your activations we can 'reset' your license key, but we can only do this a limited number of times before the license key becomes invalid.

[Redwolf]

I still want to know since when a new motherboard and/or new video card nuked the current license lease.

This definitely didn't use to be the case, otherwise we'd have pulled a SES on you long ago.

[Moon]

Redwolf, here is how it works: eLicense takes a snapshot of your PC at the time of activation of the license. Call it a fingerprint if you want. It does this so that it recognizes your PC later on. What goes into this fingerprint varies.

Later on, there is a CHANCE that it will recognize your PC even despite OS reinstallation (what you posted at the end of page one is not 100% accurate), motherboard or video card replacement. But it's a chance, and depends on a number of factors. Think of it as needing a certain number of matches before it can recognize your fingerprint.

Short of completely erasing your HD there is always a chance that eLicense recognizes your PC. In some cases, it may still ask your to relicense, but once you do, it will 'reassign' an existing activation instance to it. In other cases, where the match is to vague, you may not be able to relicense if you already used up your second activation. In that case, not all is lost still, because we can reset your license, and do so regularly for customers.

Martin

[Redwolf]

Redwolf, here is how it works: eLicense takes a snapshot of your PC at the time of activation of the license. Call it a fingerprint if you want. It does this so that it recognizes your PC later on. What goes into this fingerprint varies.

Later on, there is a CHANCE that it will recognize your PC even despite OS reinstallation (what you posted at the end of page one is not 100% accurate), motherboard or video card replacement. But it's a chance, and depends on a number of factors. Think of it as needing a certain number of matches before it can recognize your fingerprint.

Short of completely erasing your HD there is always a chance that eLicense recognizes your PC. In some cases, it may still ask your to relicense, but once you do, it will 'reassign' an existing activation instance to it. In other cases, where the match is to vague, you may not be able to relicense if you already used up your second activation. In that case, not all is lost still, because we can reset your license, and do so regularly for customers.

Martin

But that still means that the user cannot know, exactly, what hardware changes he can make without unlicensing and reactivating around any hardware work. If they ignore the problem they will potentially run into what Schrullenhaft said is a limit on license resets which invalidates the license, forever.

So far I had the impression that BFC's DRM (as opposed to SES') mostly relies on Windows. Windows installations are a hassle to transport to new hardware anyway. I though you bind to specific Windows installations and that's about it, you don't do your own checks on whether this is "the same PC". Most user won't be able to make a different PC's windows installation work on different hardware (even assuming a pirate is willing to run that Windows install instead of his own just to get your game).

[hoolaman]

I thought the hardware check was only made at the time of applying the license? So you should be able to mess with your hardware and as long as the install still exists on your hard drive it won't phone home. This would allow you to unlicense and relicense with the new hardware hash.

Am I mistaken in this assumption? Like Redwolf I don't want to have my licenses killed by buying a new processor or something.

[Moon]

Redwolf, unlicensing and relicensing takes one second. It is - literally - just one click. So simply unlicense your game, make your changes, then relicense it. It takes two seconds in total to do this per game.

Hoolaman, the hardware fingerprint is made once. But the license check is made every time you launch the game. It checks to see if the game is still on the PC that it was activated for. Without this you could activate the game and then copy it at will

[Wodin]

The only probelm I really see is when like me there are times you don't have a net connection be it moving or in this present economic climate financial....this is what I find abit wrong...the financial side of things....you may face hardtimes and find many games you own restricted in what you can do.

The DRM is all dependent on net connection....not good in my humble opinion...there are still parts of the uk with NO connection at all.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

The only probelm I really see is when like me there are times you don't have a net connection be it moving or in this present economic climate financial....this is what I find abit wrong...the financial side of things....you may face hardtimes and find many games you own restricted in what you can do.

The DRM is all dependent on net connection....not good in my humble opinion...there are still parts of the uk with NO connection at all.

Oh, come on!

Having a connection once during the lifetime of an OS installation or HD of the machine it is installed on is hardly an onerous DRM practise. And even then there's an off line option. If you are unable to do any of that, I suggest your problem lies elsewhere then DRM.

Me, I'm more worried about the fact I'd have to go ask BFC for a new license per PC purchase/overhaul. That doesn't sit too well, even knowing that BFC are perfectly willing to re-activate a license for me should I ask.

As long as I unlicense and licence my stuff properly, I think it's none of your business what PC specs go with that license.

[Schrullenhaft]

Elmar Bijlsma - You do not have to have your license reset for a hardware upgrade. You just unlicense the game, upgrade your computer or install the game on your new hardware and then relicense the game. This only becomes an issue for a computer that can't hook up to the internet at some point in this process.

The 'hardware fingerprint' does not report data to us and/or permanently lock you into one configuration for the life of the license. It just allows the eLicense software to check the system that the game is attempting to run on with what the 'fingerprint' says it should be running on. If there is a significant mis-match, then the game won't run. The licensing assumption is that the software has been moved to a different machine than it was originally licensed on (a possible attempt at software piracy). It does this instead of checking the license key on the internet every time you launch the game, which would be even more problematic for some people (an internet connection required each time you play the game).

The biggest issue we run into is when someone has had a hard drive crash or other hardware problem with the computer. Since these are unexpected a vast majority of the time, there is no opportunity to unlicense the game beforehand. Thus we need to provide the 'reset' to customers who find themselves in this situation. The other common situation is that customers forget to unlicense the software on a computer that they dispose of and thus run out of 'activations'. In situations where the hardware/software is no longer available to unlicense we also perform resets. The big caveat is that we can only do this a few times before the license becomes inactivated.

[Moon]

The DRM is all dependent on net connection....not good in my humble opinion...there are still parts of the uk with NO connection at all.

Yes, but the only way to order from battlefront.com is to go online and purchase through our store. Hence, only customers who have an online connection (in one way or another - even if it's by using a friend's PC or an internet cafe or Wifi spot) are our customers. As such, the problem you mention simply does not exist in our case. If someone has absolutely no way to go online to license, then he also cannot order the game from us in the first place.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Out of curiosity does buying a hard copy of the game affect the DRM at all? or does all buying a hard copy give you is a nice shiny box?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

The 'hardware fingerprint' does not report data to us and/or permanently lock you into one configuration for the life of the license.

Ah, I am glad to be mistaken then. Thanks for explaining.

[Schrullenhaft]

The DRM is the same whether you purchase a download or a physical copy. The physical copy just provides a pre-recorded copy of the game on disc, and occasionally a printed manual (though this is disappearing from most new releases now due to printing costs). With downloads you only have 365 days and/or 10 download attempts before the download expires, so you would need to make some sort of backup of the installer in that case too.

The physical copy (if there is no download option purchased) has the license key printed on a sticker attached to either the manual or disc container. If for some reason you lose this and don't have the license key recorded elsewhere, then you will need to repurchase the game to get another one since we don't have a record of the license key issued to you. With downloads we record the license key in an online database, so the license key can always be retrieved (as long as you have access to your Battlefront Store account).