Why Use an M136/AT4 When You have a Javelin?

[Sabot6]

A quick question: is there any particular reason why a recon squad, ~450 meters away from a Syrian BMP, would fire three M136/AT4's rather than use a Javelin? I thought that the maximum recommended range for the M136/AT4 was 300 meters...?

Is there any way to ensure that they use the Javelin in such a situation (I could see my pixeltruppen with their M136/AT4's out, but I assumed that one of them would exchange it for the Javelin that the squad was carrying: one launcher and three missles, with a clear LOS to the target)?

For those of you wondering about the outcome, it's what you probably would expect: one round went wide and two fell short, and then the BMP chewed up two of the squad members.

Thanks for any insight or advice!

[Jonny(FGM)]

How did you target the BMP? direct targetting (ie clicking target and then the BMP), target arc or just letting them do their thing?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

The Javelin takes a bit to prepare.

If your guys would have waited until it was ready then someone else would come to the forum complaining that the AT-4s didn't fire and this wait got the squad killed.

[Jonny(FGM)]

But by the sounds of it it was the firing of the AT-4 that alerted the BMP to the squads presence, if they had waited and readied the jav they may have remained undetected and got the jav off in time. I've never seen a jav take more than a minute to prepare.

Personally i've never had this happen to me, they've pretty much allways chose the right weapon for the situation. Were there any enemy MBTs known to be operating in the area that might have encouraged the squad to save the jav for the heavier stuff?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Yes, in this specific situation it might have been better to wait for the CLU to cool.

But if you changed that behaviour it would mean that in other situations someone rams his keyboard through the monitor in frustration as his squad gets toasted because they won't use the AT-4s right away.

[Sabot6]

Thanks, everyone, for your quick replies!

My recon squad had not yet fired their javelin at anything, and was in a superior overwatch position on top of a dominant hill. I had them with a covered arc to their front, and as my previous turn ended they had spotted the BMP but the BMP hadn't spotted them (yet). I was a bit nervous as I saw two of the squad members aiming with their AT4's, but I assumed that they would switch to the Javelin. At the start of my next turn, of go the AT4's and back comes the return fire, with predictable results.... :^)

One thing that might have prompted them to use the AT4's was that they were not in as deep cover as I would have preferred, but were instead at the edge of a wooded area and frankly, a bit outside of the wooded area on top of a small hill that dominated the area. Perhaps they felt that it was only a matter of time before the BMP (or something else) saw them, and hence they used the AT4's (BTW, does a CLU need to cool even if it hasn't been fired yet--does this have to do with target acquisition?). And to answer another question, there was nothing bigger out there that might have resulted in them wanting to save the javelin for a meatier target....

I guess I was suprised that the AT4's even entered into the equation, given the range of 450 meters...?

[hcrof]

The game probably used fuzzy logic and you were just unlucky (unless it happens again!). Imagine that the Javelin misfired and the guys panicked or something. And yes, 450m is very optimistic with an AT-4, even under ideal conditions.

On the cooling thing, the seeker head must be very cold in order to distinguish between heat signatures. I think the cooler your seeker head the better quality picture you get (although there is probably more to it than that and technology has a way of making things possible).

[Sabot6]

Very helpful--

Thanks, everyone!

[Jonny(FGM)]

It does seem you got very unlucky. If it happens again id suggest directly targetting the vehicle but i know thats not possible in call cases

[MikeyD]

Not knowing your infantry setup it might've been a line of fire issue. Half your squad having LOF on the target while the other half (including the Javelin guy) don't. I can't really recall ever having a Javelin team refuse to target armor at 450m unless they were in a bad firing position or supressed. Or perhaps a target-rich environment causes them to choose someone else to fire on instead.

[MeatEtr]

I think the cover arc is what caused this behavior. Next time dump the arc and just let them do their own thing, don't manually target. Also make sure they're unhidden too.

[tyrspawn]

A quick question: is there any particular reason why a recon squad, ~450 meters away from a Syrian BMP, would fire three M136/AT4's rather than use a Javelin? I thought that the maximum recommended range for the M136/AT4 was 300 meters...?

Is there any way to ensure that they use the Javelin in such a situation (I could see my pixeltruppen with their M136/AT4's out, but I assumed that one of them would exchange it for the Javelin that the squad was carrying: one launcher and three missles, with a clear LOS to the target)?

For those of you wondering about the outcome, it's what you probably would expect: one round went wide and two fell short, and then the BMP chewed up two of the squad members.

Thanks for any insight or advice!

Javelin has a MINIMUM range of 75 meters and a max range of 2700 meters. It has a 95%+ accuracy rate. It will one shot kill all armored vehicles, although multiple shots may be required for NATO MBTs. It also costs $80,000 per missile and weighs quite a bit.

The M136 is effective at up to 100 meters and minimally effective at up to 300 meters. It can defeat up to BMPs, although it may also effect T-62s to the side and rear and T-72s on the top of the turret or rear in quantity. The m136 sucks, but its cheap, thats why they are common.

[DaveDash]

Javelin has a MINIMUM range of 75 meters and a max range of 2700 meters. It has a 95%+ accuracy rate. It will one shot kill all armored vehicles, although multiple shots may be required for NATO MBTs. It also costs $80,000 per missile and weighs quite a bit.

95% eh? Playing through the Marines campaign again, Mission 3 where you are guarding the flank and your poor platoon gets assaulted by a bucketload of Syrians, my Javelin guy shot 6 Javelins and killed only one tank.

On a off-topic note, RPG's seem to be pretty lethal in this game. The guys firing them are generally more accurate than the M136 from quite long distances, and it's rare an RPG will NOT destroy Strykers, AAVs, even Brads in one hit. This goes against a lot of things I have read (including armoured HUMVEE's surviving multiple RPG hits).

"Bundermann decided to focus on holding the base and saving as many of his troops as possible. About 200 yards north of Bundermann's position, five soldiers were hunkered down in an armored Humvee, fighting to keep the insurgents off the outpost.

Rocket-propelled grenades were bouncing off the truck's doors and roof. The troops concluded that it was only a matter of time before a round penetrated the Humvee's armor".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/15/AR2010051503645_3.html?hpid=topnews⊂=AR&sid=ST2010051503668

Would this because the Iraqi army and Taliban are using RPGs that are a lot older than the Syrian army would? Are non-detonations even modelled in the game? Seems they're pretty common in real life using older warheads.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

BFC have in the past indicated a direct comparison with Iraq is not entirely useful due to RPGs there typically being older and suffering badly from shoddy storage and handling.

[DaveDash]

Fair enough.

[c3k]

The Javelin verses AT4/M136: If I'd been humping a Javelin all friggin' day and I finally got a chance to dump the thing by blowing up an enemy vehicle, you can be sure I'd be knocking my squadmates aside in my rush to launch it! Getting rid of it would give me a spring to my step for the rest of the day; blowing up an enemy vehicle would be icing on the cake!

For whatever that's worth....

[Sgt Joch]

It does sound more like a LOS/LOF issue. My squads are usually loaded with the same Jav/AT4 setup, but always prefer using the Jav first.

[Jonny(FGM)]

On a off-topic note, RPG's seem to be pretty lethal in this game. The guys firing them are generally more accurate than the M136 from quite long distances, and it's rare an RPG will NOT destroy Strykers, AAVs, even Brads in one hit. This goes against a lot of things I have read (including armoured HUMVEE's surviving multiple RPG hits).

The strykers seem vunerable to RPGs but i've had AAVs and Brads survive multiple RPGs, even from the side and rear. But yes the RPGs do seem very accurate from quite a range

[hcrof]

RPGs (At least in regular armies) have a 2.7x sight on them allowing effective fire to between 300m and 500m. Effective meaning 30-50% of rounds hit the target.

Of course RPGs need thorough training with them in order to be used effectively in combat, they are not just 'point and shoot' weapons like the AT4. This would (among other things) explain the dismal accuracy shown by insurgents using them in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[DaveDash]

I've had everything get taken out by RPGs and the crew/cargo burns inside except tanks. tanks are fricken tough. RPGs seem to be pretty accurate used by Syrian forces (30-50% as stated) and can take out ERA Brads in one shot (in my experience). Maybe it's just scenario designers are giving them excellent experiance?

ATGMs usually have a 50/50 kill ratio and the crew usually survives. AT4s etc usually miss 2/3rds of the time and are mostly ineffective against all but the lightest armour (they immobilize quite often).

Javelins hit about 2/3rds and almost always destroy their target.

AAVs are especially painful when they get hit by RPGs with 20 guys in there. Seems like no one ever survives.

Basically I fear RPGs so much in CMSF it makes me wonder why NATO doesn't adopt them.

[meade95]

RPGs are too accurate and too deadly in CMSF - (and the notion that RPGs in Iraq were of lesser quality only rang true from about 2003-2005...by the end of 05, all sorts of RPGs, of all quality levels were / have been used). CMSF accuracy levels and damage models seem high...

[Alan8325]

It seems to me, also, that RPGs are far too accurate in CMSF. That is until I play as the Syrians and find myself cursing at the screen for their lousy shooting.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

It seems to me, also, that RPGs are far too accurate in CMSF. That is until I play as the Syrians and find myself cursing at the screen for their lousy shooting.

You aren't the only one. In an old thread about this same subject I commented on the fact that, without fail, those people participating in the thread who thought the RPGs were over-modelled were giving examples of being on the receiving end. Those that piped up that RPGs were under-modelled were describing instances where they were the users of those RPGs.

That thread taught me more about humans then RPGs.

[DaveDash]

You aren't the only one. In an old thread about this same subject I commented on the fact that, without fail, those people participating in the thread who thought the RPGs were over-modelled were giving examples of being on the receiving end. Those that piped up that RPGs were under-modelled were describing instances where they were the users of those RPGs.

That thread taught me more about humans then RPGs.

I think for me personally I play RT, so I don't notice some of the RPG misses (hear the bang and mistake it for artillery etc). Hits of course, you ALWAYS notice so it 'seems' they're deadly accurate. I do wonder though about the amount of casualties suffered due to RPGs in vehicles however.

One thing though about what I have read (BHD, Thunder Run) is that properly trained troops seem to be pretty good at spotting RPG teams before the launch. If you watch the Thunder Run video at one point one of the M1A1 tanks jams on the breaks, spins 90 degrees to the left, and blasts the crap out of an RPG team hidden in a bush (at about 20m range) with small arms. In the video I gotta admit I can't even see sh*t. Maybe this can be emulated with cover arcs over sectors, or unbuttoned troops (which die quite easily). CM:SF - if guys are "hiding" you pretty much have zero chance of spotting them until its too late. This of course works both ways as Syrian armour and vehicles are hopeless at spotting Javelins (and even anti-armour teams) before or after launch.

All I know is that after playing this game for a while, I am now ultra careful about finding hull down and keyholed positions for my armoured vehicles, and that is a good thing.

[Dietrich]

In my experience of being on the receiving end, an MBT (Abrams, Challenger) can take multiple RPG hits from the front quarter without being knocked out, but an AFV/IFV (Stryker, Bradley, etc.) is more often than not knocked out by the first RPG that hits it.

Counterbalancing that, however, I have done tests which revealed that dud RPG rounds are modeled; and occasionally a Bradley or Warrior of mine 'takes a licking but keeps on ticking'.

But plenty of times my AFV/IFV (this is rather less common with MBTs) is "destroyed" by a round that doesn't wound/rattle any of the crew and doesn't damage any of the listed componentry more than a small green x.