Could the Allies have prepared better for Normandy

[Sergei]

Communications plays a great part: in Normandy, the German lines of supply were being smashed and they had fewer reserves to put in place against an Allied army whose supply line was largely uninterrupted. In 1940, the French army was reliant on a telephone system (the German Army was using radios to a far greater extent) and an organisational structure that required the higher level commanders in the field receive their orders from Paris.

Nothing wrong with using telephone lines. Radios are far more prone to failure and can be eavesdropped on by the enemy, and radio waves don't carry information any faster than copper cable does.

[ebitt]

Wiretapping was around long before 1940. The French Resistance and the Jedburgh teams caused enough havoc to the telecommunications system to force the Germans to go back to using radio. The good folks at Bletchley Park had a field day once the Germans were forced to use radio again.

[bitchen frizzy]

Doesn't change the fact that for a mid-20th century defense with interior lines on friendly territory, telephone communications made a lot of sense. Criticism of the French for using telephones is unfounded.

There were countermeasures to wiretapping. Not much could be done about radio intercepts.

[Michael Emrys]

Criticism of the French for using telephones is unfounded.

It would be if they had had a proper set up. I have read in a couple of places that the High Command HQ had but a single phone. As I posted earlier, they relied on motorcycle messenger. If the French army (or the BEF for that matter) had any teletype machines, I have yet to learn of it.

There were countermeasures to wiretapping. Not much could be done about radio intercepts.

Well, there is always encryption. Granted, that slows down the flow, and if your code gets broken your security is compromised.

Michael

[bitchen frizzy]

Ok, to be precise, the use of landlines, per se, was not a bad idea or backward. Implementation might have been poor, but that was a problem the French had across the board with all of their toys. If they relied too heavily on couriers when they had phones available, they probably would have done little better with radios, whether traditionalism or lack of funds was the underlying problem.

Phone lines can be inspected and monitored for taps, wiretapping in enemy territory requires infiltration or spies, and the wiretappers can be hunted down. WWII-era radio intercept could be done passively and was almost unpreventable.

[dieseltaylor]

Interesting point regarding the telephone lines. I suppose the drawback would be if your exchanges were taken out and thus you had to have a courier system. Semaphore might have been too obvious .... but

My father was trained on the teletype at the start of the war - and it was rare beast. And just to put that into context he was an officer and ended up looking after military signals in Bengal - see if you master the latest technology you can go far : )

PS when researching I cam across this formidable lady:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Nourse_Rogers

[costard]

Interesting point regarding the telephone lines. I suppose the drawback would be if your exchanges were taken out and thus you had to have a courier system.

Yep, this is what happened. The exchanges were mostly set up in the centre of towns that the Germans were bombing in order to disrupt French supply. Quite a few were deliberately targeted by units of the German Army behind enemy lines. Once the blitzkrieg had gained momentum the French High Command coudn't keep abreast of the day to day developments and its decision making (and morale) suffered accordingly.

German command units were using the Enigma coding machine early on in the war - I don't think it was broken until '42? so orders weren't being broadcast in the clear. And the naval variant (which used an extra coding rotor) wasn't broken until a US lieutenant managed to grab a key from a sinking submarine in the Atlantic - in '43? sorry 'bout the fuzzy dates.

[dieseltaylor]

And the naval variant (which used an extra coding rotor) wasn't broken until a US lieutenant managed to grab a key from a sinking submarine in the Atlantic - in '43? sorry 'bout the fuzzy dates.

I hope that was you being witty ... : )

[costard]

I'd recommend nair for your fuzzy date, Diesel.

[Blackcat]

Costard,

You wrote, "German command units were using the Enigma coding machine early on in the war - I don't think it was broken until '42? so orders weren't being broadcast in the clear. And the naval variant (which used an extra coding rotor) wasn't broken until a US lieutenant managed to grab a key from a sinking submarine in the Atlantic - in '43? sorry 'bout the fuzzy dates."

And you signature line reads, "Better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. "

You might want to reflect on using the latter whilst writing such nonesense as the former.

[Sergei]

It's true, I saw this documentary U-571 where they showed how it happened.

[dieseltaylor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine

and from the wiki link to the film U 571

America's direct participation in World War II commenced in 1941 with Lend-Lease and the Attack on Pearl Harbor, but the history of capturing Enigma machines and breaking their codes had already begun in Europe.

An earlier military Enigma machine had been captured by Polish Intelligence in 1928; Polish intelligence broke the Enigma code in 1932 and gave their findings to Britain and France in 1939, just before the German invasion of Poland.[3]

The first capture of a Naval Enigma machine and associated cipher keys from a U-boat was made on May 9, 1941 by HMS Bulldog of Britain's Royal Navy, commanded by Captain Joe Baker-Cresswell. The U-boat was U-110. In 1942, the British seized U-559, capturing additional Enigma codebooks. "The captured codebooks provided vital assistance to the British cryptographers, led by Alan Turing, at the code-breaking hothouse of Bletchley Park, near Milton Keynes."[3]

There were some 15 captures of Naval Enigma material during World War II, all but two by the British. The Canadian Navy captured U-774; the U.S. Navy seized U-505 in June 1944. By this time the Allies were already reading Naval Enigma routinely.

[Affentitten]

What bollocks. It was the Australians who captured U-110 and won the whole war.

[mididoctors]

What bollocks. It was the Australians who captured U-110 and won the whole war.

actually it was a British Homosexual auto asphyxiation perv into riding a bike with a gas mask on who won the war

[dieseltaylor]

So midi you are agreeing with Affen?

[Affentitten]

I can state with authority though that the ASDIC operator on Bulldog that detected the U-110 was an Australian officer on loan to the RAN. So there. We did win the whole war for everyone else, including the auto-erotic Tory establishment.

[Stalins Organ]

And so - how does that stop him being a "British Homosexual auto asphyxiation perv"??

[Affentitten]

Well, I suppose it doesn't. But when I met him, he had a very bushy beard. Might have made it hard to get a seal on the mask.

[Stalins Organ]

I'm pretty sure animal welfare laws forbid using seals for auto asphyxiation.

[Affentitten]

Shows how naive and prudish you really are. For many Old Etonians, being partially suffocated by a marine mammal is the ultimate turn on.

[Michael Emrys]

For many Old Etonians, being partially suffocated by a marine mammal is the ultimate turn on.

And you know this because...?

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

I can state with authority though that the ASDIC operator on Bulldog that detected the U-110 was an Australian officer on loan to the RAN.

Why would an Australian officer be on loan to the RAN? Was he an army officer, or an RAAF officer? And how is it that the RAN is hunting down U-Boots outside the Pacific? Are you trying to confuse us?

Michael

[Stalins Organ]

Shows how naive and prudish you really are. For many Old Etonians, being partially suffocated by a marine mammal is the ultimate turn on.

Thanks for the update - I am sure you know your stuff in this matter.

But I said that it is illegal to use them.......not that they are not used.

[Affentitten]

Why would an Australian officer be on loan to the RAN? Was he an army officer, or an RAAF officer? And how is it that the RAN is hunting down U-Boots outside the Pacific? Are you trying to confuse us?

Michael

At the start of the war, really before Australia had geared itself up, the RAN was quite pro-active about establishing a cadre of officers, especially ones trained in the new technical branches. They called for volunteers, particularly from civilians who had some maritime experience. It became known as the "Yachtsmen's Scheme", because a lot of these volunteer officers came from sailing clubs.

They were given shake and bake training in technical disciplines like ASDIC and then, because the RN needed so many people, they were shipped off to the UK to be seeded onto ships in the Atlantic, Med etc. This helped the RN fill its gaps and gave the RAN a bunch of men who came home with operational experience. Kind of the like the Canloan program and the EATS.

This was all done and dusted long before the Japs were even in the war. One of the guys I interviewed volunteered at the end of December 1939 and was shooting at German destroyers at Narvik in April 1940. He had a letter from the Australian War Memorial saying that as far as they could ascertain, he was the first Australian man (in an Australian service) to have fired a shot in anger in WW2.

[Affentitten]

I should also add that many of these men served attached to the RN throughout the war, including a handful who commanded landing ships for D-Day. So desperate was the RN for officers for its ever expanding fleet that one of the guys I spoke to described his promotion board hearing for being commissioned as a Lieutenant. He fronted a panel of three crusty old dockyard warriors too old for active service:

"Midshipman, what bearing is due East?"

The Aussie guy, thinking it a trick question, thought for a while but then said "Two seven zero degrees, sir."

"Right. I see your surname is Nelson. You'll do. NEXT!"