Battlefont should get some one to do a AWI game

[Gunfreak]

AWI beeing American War of independence.

In gaming fashon it gives sevral things that make it very good for gaming.

You got the american milita having to stand and fight agasint the juggernaught of british soldiers, this makes the way you play very diffrend depending on if you are playing British or American.

With the american side, you have to be very carefull about how you use your milita, don't do any fancy manouvers, it will only make things harder, if you have to attack, don't make elaborete planes with them ect.

You will only have a few good regiments of vetran continental soldiers, they will be your "imperial Guard" Rely on them but don't waist them.

For the British side

You will have very few bad regiments some are avrage seval are good, and a few are the umtimate regiments seen that last 20 years.

But you will most likely be outnumberd(after 1777) your regiments can take alot of punishment, but in the end, your victory might taste as bitter as defeat.

The terrain is just wonderfull if you get a right grapich engien, lush american farm land and woods, prestine and peacefull untill soldiers start to fight over the terrain and blood start to flow.

Generly small battles, and small units, making it possible to do battles in 1:1 scale.

The biggest battles had about 35 000 soldiers, and histwar has allready gone beyond that, most battles had less then 20 000, infact most had less then 15 000, making it very feasible to do all battles inn full scale.

The game could be a campaign/battle game, or just a battle game.

I think with Empire total giving people a taste of this war, a real computer wargame that is more realistic and grandur would be able to sell.

[Michael Emrys]

I too wish for a good game based on the AWI, but not on the CM scale. I kind of doubt that small unit tactics in that era are where the main interest lies. The main interest in the Revolutionary War was at the strategic and operational levels, which are very interesting. Each side has to think very carefully about where to commit its forces, and the concerns are as much or more political as strictly military.

Long, long ago in a galaxy far away, Avalon Hill did a game on the AWI called 1776 that is a model of what I am talking about. I have longed and yearned for a computer version of that game or something at least as good. But alas, the gaming public, if it has interest in such a game, has not made that interest known to game designers and publishers.

Michael

[Gunfreak]

A great strategic game has allready been made by AGEOD.

But because of the lack of tactical battles it looses alot, you feel you are never in full control, it's very random how battles go, and it's very simple.

But if you want deep strategic and army building take a look at AGEODs games, they got, two about the AWI, the first AWI game was their first game, they then did a ACW game/which I found the best) then a Napoleoinc game, and finnaly back to america with a French and indian wars/AWI/1812 game, All games are based on the same engien and gameplay, it has only been updated more and more, with better and better features.

But I do miss a battle engien in the game.

Here's my half finished Fusiliers

I still need two more bases, for a total of 24 figs. I know they fusiliers didn't actualy use the cap during the war, it was left at depo atleast as late as 75 probebly even earlier.

But they do look damn good in the caps

[Stalins Organ]

Nore likely to get done by the Shogun/Rome/Medieval War ppl - I hear the latest one is Napoleonic so I'dxepect an AWI mod from fans at some stage if it's not included in the original.

[Gunfreak]

As I said Empire total war allready covers the period, but it's not a true wargame, and it's silly and stupid, like having grenadiers with granades.

I want a real wargame of the type and quality Battlefront delivers.

[Sergei]

I too wish for a good game based on the AWI, but not on the CM scale. I kind of doubt that small unit tactics in that era are where the main interest lies.

I'd prefer a first person simulation where you, as a sergeant, bully and beat up your reluctant, sick and foot injured recruits until they are quite satisfied to die in combat if it ends the misery that you're causing them. Occasionally you shoot a deserter in the back, maybe even fight against the enemy, and after the battle go looting with the men, trying to limit them harming each other in their drunken stupor.

[John Kettler]

Gunfreak,

Thank heavens for Universal Translators! Had to break mine out to decipher your acronym in the title, only to encounter the expansion in the first line of the body text. Long ago, there was talk of using the CMBO engine to create a family of wargames in other periods, but I think it died over the fact that most of the game was hard coded, therefore difficult and expensive to do anything with. In turn, this led to the development of the radically different CMx2 engine. Unfortunately, CMx2 isn't well suited for depicting what we call here the American Revolution or Revolutionary War, unless only the skirmishes are fought. The present code isn't designed for men in mass formations, and it emphatically isn't geared to deal with cavalry. Could it be done? Perhaps. Any time soon? Extremely doubtful, especially since this isn't exactly a bestselling wargame topic. That said, I do have some experience with smallish Revolutionary War battles fought with miniatures, and they are a lot of fun.

Sergei,

Don't forget prodding them with the point of your spontoon, "riding the horse," and making them run the gantlet!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Stalins Organ]

Grenadiers with grenades is a trivial problem - fan modders have done much more than change such things in the other TW games & I see no reason why they wouldn't here.

Other than that the TW engine(s) does a very creditably wargame IMO.

[Gunfreak]

Total war is not a histiric wargame it's hollywood action.

Real wargames or sims are like Sid Mayers, waterloo/gettysbrug

Histwar, Take command, and soon scurge of war gettysburg.

Were real tactics are used not some sort of fantasy rock, papper siccors thing, there they main point of the game is realistic ai, not fancy graphics

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Why does everyone assume Gunfreak is asking for a Combat Mission game set in the AWI?

I agree with Gunfreak's request, but I think that it should be separate from the CM series.

TW makes a great-looking game, but that's about all I can say for it. The gameplay itself might be fun, but it's not a wargame.

[Gunfreak]

Thanks Blücher, thats a good point

No Combat Mission was not what I was thinking, but a completly seperate and new game, buildt from the ground up.

If any game can be close to what I'm thinknig of, then Take Command and the new scurage of war games are it.

Only with 3d models, in 1;1 scale, so a regiment of 260 soldiers have 260 models and a regiment with 400 has 400 ect.

As I said The battles are 30 000 soldiers or less, which easly can be done today.

The game would have a realistic ai that used historic tactics and strategies.

With real command structure, brigades, and divisions.

Had I had the brain for computer programing or moddeling I would have started on this my self, but I'm a total software idiot.

[Sixxkiller]

Dont see this happening. BFC is a wee bit busy with what they do best. Not sure if that will always be the case but looks like someone else will get the luxury of making it for you.

[Stalins Organ]

Wargaming is gaming about war - sorry if the TW series isn't your cup of tea, but to say it's not a wargame (or at least the battle aspects of it are not) is being prissy.

[Sergei]

Wargaming is gaming about war - sorry if the TW series isn't your cup of tea' date=' but to say it's not a wargame (or at least the battle aspects of it are not) is being prissy.[/quote']

Someone might call chess a wargame, because it's a game about war. Or Command & Control. They're not. Of course what is reasonably close to war to merit it being called a 'wargame' is contentious. I'd say wargames are games that are the descendants of the original wargame, Kriegspiel.

So calling Total War series as war games is akin to calling Super Mario Bros series as Breakout games (you crush tiles in both).

[JonS]

This rules set established several conventions for wargaming which hold true to the present day, such as:

* the use of maps [TW = check]

* color coding the opposing armies [TW = check]

* using umpires [TW = check]

* and uniform, complex rules for movement and combat. [TW = check]

Seems like it'd be a wargame to me :confused:

[Sergei]

That would also hold true for Command & Conquer. It's not a matter of any particular features, it's a question of heritage. Would you call a four-wheeled motorized bicycle a car?

[Field Marshal Blücher]

OK, well, I didn't mean to turn it into a giant discussion on the definition of the word "wargame." So forget I said that, and let me restate what I said:

TW is not a realistic depiction of war, which is what I desire.

[Stalins Organ]

For a realistic depiction of ancient war you need to live without flush toilets and antibiotics for your whole life, get a bunch of people to do likewaise, then have at each otehr with sharp bits of metal.

Everything else is simulation - better or worse only according to personal taste.

As a long time ancient wargamer & reader of the classic histories I found RTW's tactical battles up to par with most sets of figure rules I have played & I enjoyed them immensly.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

As a long time ancient wargamer & reader of the classic histories I found RTW's tactical battles up to par with most sets of figure rules I have played & I enjoyed them immensly.

I enjoyed it immensely at the time too. I played the crap out of it. That's not to say that someone can't make something a heck of a lot better.

[Affentitten]

That would also hold true for Command & Conquer. It's not a matter of any particular features, it's a question of heritage. Would you call a four-wheeled motorized bicycle a car?

Would you call a guy in full plate on a horse a tank?

[JonS]

That would also hold true for Command & Conquer. It's not a matter of any particular features, it's a question of heritage.

That makes no sense at all :confused: What does 'heritage' mean in the context of a commercial product - is it to do with the designer, the subject, the scale, the intended audience, conforming to conventions, ...?

Combat Mission broke a whole bunch of pre-existing wargaming conventions (which one could call the 'heritage' of wargaming), but I think you'd be hard pressed to call it *not* a wargame. Similarly Sid Meier has made both wargames and not-wargames.

Is AH's Third Reich a wargame? What about Strategic Command? Both are clearly about war, *a* war, even, but both are pretty stylised and both gloss over some pretty important factors. But I think you'd again be hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't call them wargames.

What then, of Risk, which could be seen as a 'dumbed down' version of Third Reich. Personally I'd call it a simplistic wargame (same for Stratego). It's a game about conflict and fighting and conquest. It's a highly simplified version of the real thing, but essentially open-ended in terms of the flow of the game.

Then there are the card games like Up Front (and whatever the air-war one(s) are called) - wargame or not wargame?

I don't think invoking 'heritage' tells us much useful about a game. A game might be too stylised or simplistic for your tastes, but objecting to a game being called a wargame on those grounds seems a bit elitist. It's a bit like graffitti - at some point graffitti ceases being graffitti and becomes art (or it's still technically graffitti, but is also art), but that point is different for everyone.

[Runyan99]

If BFC does an age of rifles era game I'm still going to suggest the American Civil War first.

[Sixxkiller]

Werent some folks kinda pissed there were no hexes in CMx1? I believe CM wasnt a wargame cause of the lack of these things.

[Deadmeat1471]

take a look at ageod's wars in america, i find its easily the best AWI game (of a very limited number) and generally fun too, though playing against players is far superior to the ai.

i think any other game should basicly be the same, only have some tactical aspects (as WIA is strategic only).

AWI is such an interesting war too.

[hoolaman]

Didn't BFC briefly have a pretty good board-game style AWI game on the books at one stage or am I imagining that?

...Yes: "For Liberty!" that's it. They've defected to the opposition though.