El Derjine campaign AAR

[TheVulture]

Turn 16

Just to add even more fun, the infantry from a recon platoon are seen in the north behind the t-90. And a BMP ride soon show up too; I happen to know that a recon platoon is 3 small squads, an ATGM team and 2 BMPs (courtesy of a PBEM), so I have some idea what to expect in that direction.

With only one t-90 left in the north, and a tank, javelin team, and ATGM humvee already covering that direction, my last tank is free to move back to the south to counter the new mechanised platoon incoming. That tanks reverse back down, and takes up his previous position next to the trashed M1 (all the crew of that tank survived, thankfully). He quickly starts chewing through the new IFVs.

The attack is soon in disarray. The tank picks off three vehicles, and infantry AT weapons knock out the last one. The infantry are quickly cut down once my men can fire without fear of BMP cannon fire.

Just before they were wiped out though, one of the BMPs spied by battalion HQ tank through the palm trees and launched an ATGM at its rear:

It flies worringly on target, until suddenly the gunners concentration is ruined:

[TheVulture]

Turn 17

Summarising the current situation:

One mechanised company (2 platoons) attacked from the south-east, and has been repelled with very heavy casualties. A second company (plus battalion HQ) attacked from the south, and is the process of beinf destroyed; all vehicles are wrecked, and about half the infantry are out of the fight, with half the survivors trying to advance while the other half run for the cover of the ridge. In the north the t-90 platoon has 1 vehicle left, and is providing cover for a recon platoon to try and come in from behind my position.

My tank battalion HQ gets to work shooting at the BMPs as and when they come into the field of view. The ATGM humvee also gets in on the act with another erratic miss. Then the t-90 starts to rumble forwards. The javelin team take aim and fire:

What do you know - they were targetting the wrong vehicle.

Another BMP lighting up the surrounding countryside, but the t-90 still ambles on. A total of 3 BMPs are destroyed in the northern area though. Since a recon platoon only has 2, then I guess there must be two platoons in the area (or a platoon plus some support troops with their own transport).

[TheVulture]

Turn 18

The battalion HQ continues to earn his pay. The final t-90 is dispatched, just as a fifth BMP rolls into view in the north. This BMP tries to be cunning and use one of its destroyed chums for cover or concealement. Not to be deterred, the M1 gunner simply put a round through both vehicles together.

Another BMP gone, and another crew discovering why a huge ammo load out can be a disadvantage. But another BMP crew takes advantage of the distractions to launch an ATGM at the tank.

It's a direct hit to the front, but the tank is still intact. Mostly. Between a recoilless hit to the side, a t-90 hit to the front, numerous BMP cannon hits and this ATGM, it has taken pretty heavy damage. Quite a few systems are non-functional, including most of its sensors. The tank is still capable of moving and firing its main gun, but the targetting is completely shot, so I think this tank might be out of the fight. At least the BMP that launched the missile is quickly taken out by my last javelin missile.

I'm running out of AT assets now; one taken in good condition, one that is probably useless, all javelins gone. There is the ATGM humvee with a few missiles left, and the SMAWs (good for side shots) and AT4s / LAWs at short range. If there are any more t-90s hiding around the corner, things could get very ugly. Conversely, I have destroyed a whole mechanised battalion's worth of BMPs and a platoon of t-90s, and I've not lost any men since my tank was knocked out, so it is more a case of 'holding on, just about' rather than 'starting to crumble'. If the attack is limited to dismounts now in this open terrain, I have nothing to worry about....

[TheVulture]

Turns 19-22

Everything starts to get a little more quiet now. A few Syrian infantry are seeing scampering around, and a few late units turn up to the fight; a rifle squad comes charging over the hill rather late and is met by a massive haol of fire that kills 7 men in seconds and sends the other 2 running like hell. An FO and an ATGM team in the north are dealt with. There are only two points of any real threat, both times when a BMP that was held up in traffic comes over the ridge. Both are taken out by M32 grenade launchers for the most part; each one is hit 4 or 5 times with seconds of making an appearance. One of them managed to get some way along a covered road at the edge of the swamp before being spotted, but it doesn't do him any good.

The surviving crew that bail out don't make it very far. To add a little more action to the proceedings, I've started to advance my lone squad out in the north eastern trenches towards the site of the first recoilless trench - what was going to be the first objective in our offensive in the original plan. I just want to get some eyes up on the ridge so I don't have any more surprises coming around my flank like those t-90s.

[Lets_All_Fight]

Cool as beans , TheVulture. this is better than the book I'm reading just now - and it's not a bad book!

Going to try the campaign during the holidays If I get a chance.

[SSG Grymm]

TheVulture,

Appreciate the clarifications! Evidently I was so tired I missed the main gun's firing from the T-90. Was thinking the lack of such firing might've been tied to a need to preserve structures for the Syrians, but I didn't realize it was an AI issue. I think your lumps would've been much worse from the tanks had you faced a live human on the other end. Had I been running them, there would've been a need afterward for urban/village renewal. The American 1000 pound bombs took care of that matter, though!

As for IFV/ICV light cannon ineffectiveness vs. tanks, I believe you'll find this thread of considerable interest. Bradley cannon vs. MBTs!

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/2-14635.aspx

This embedded link is simply astounding--T-62 frontal kill!

http://yarchive.net/mil/t62_kill_25mm.html

T-72 flank kill!

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/2-6630.aspx

Regards,

John Kettler

I can from personal experience that the 25mm AP rounds from a Bradley will penetrate on the Iraqi T-72's turret from the front and the hull from the flank. I have pics somewhere in my basement of several my unit ran into. We discovered this trying to supress as we ran like hell and ended up with kills.

[Bigduke6]

For the record, the manufacturer has stated T-72s shot up by Bradleys in Iraq were export version "monkey" vehicles, with among other things less armor than the version used in the FSU. According to the Russians, an "internal use" T-72 will stand up to 25mm AP and a whole lot more.

Of course, if I was exporting T-72 tanks and had their turrets shot up by a chain gun, I might start making excuses. OTOH Moscow's "export a crummy version" policy is an established fact.

[John Kettler]

SSG Grymm and Bigduke6,

Please find and post those pics! I know from reading Suvorov's/Rezun's Inside the Soviet Army, things I read while in military aerospace and some very interesting spooky discussions I had while in that career that the monkey model concept was/is quite real, but I had no idea it was so extreme that a monkey model T-72 could wind up vulnerable to 25 mm frontal kill. Talk about eggshells armed with hammers! Am much more familiar with the array of versions a given missile or aircraft might have. For example, one SAM had no less than four versions, two homeland only (vanilla and upgrade) and two export/monkey models (also vanilla and upgrade, but lacking certain features). Likewise, export aircraft often sported inferior radar, couldn't operate advanced air-to-air/air-to-surface missiles, had less powerful engines, less capable avionics, etc. As applied to the Warsaw Pact, the scheme ensured equipment compatibility, while still providing the Russian forces with a significant combat edge in the event of revolt/civil war among their allies. Indeed, equipage was very much a function of that ally's political reliability and military importance.

While I understand the logic behind the dual version concept, it must've been unbelievably galling for the Russian military to be disparaged over and over again because monkey models operated by poorly trained foreign soldiers got clobbered. Again. OTOH, there were times when the shoe was decidedly on the other foot. For example, the SA-2 was devastating when first used against the U.S.; Russian style integrated air defenses, especially the SA-6 and ZSU-23/4, ate the Israeli Air Force alive, forcing the abandonment of CAS until the defenses were shattered by tanks driving through the SAM emplacements that forced aircraft down into the envelopes of the SA-6 and ZSU-23/4. The ability of the Syrians to operate around the clock came as quite a shock, and when the U.S. got its hands on 1960s vintage Russian HEAT ammo captured by the Israelis in 1973, it discovered it was woefully behind and that the vaunted M1 was horribly vulnerable. This from ammunition deemed obsolete, therefore exportable! And before that there was the Styx in 1967 that wiped out the Israeli destroyer Eilat, an event which forced nothing less than a fundamental worldwide rethink of naval power and ship survivability.

Russian equipment has also gotten a bum rap in a rigged game, in that it has had to go up against not just U.S. weaponry, but custom tweaked Israeli versions thereof. An IAF F-16 may look like the U.S. version, but under the hood, it's practically a whole new aircraft, a discovery which shocked western observers. Similarly, it now emerges that whereas the U.S. didn't use DU in combat until the first Gulf War, the IDF first employed it in 1973. The TOW missiles that clobbered T-72s in Lebanon in 1982 weren't fitted with U.S. warheads, either, but special Israeli ones, developed by Israel Military Industries. Am beginning to suspect what made them special was having DU liners, instead of copper!

I knew about T-55s and T-62s being "eaten" by Bradleys from the flank, but I'm still grokking that solid proof exists of frontal kills on T-72s from 25 mm fire. Warps my head, but the evidence presented is very hard to dispute. In closing, I'm absolutely fascinated to note that the homeland only T-64 is now available for export. Would love to see what the armor array on that looks like, seeing as how it was our Cold War nightmare!

http://www.warfare.ru/?lang=&catid=244&linkid=1774&linkname=T-64-MBT

Regards,

John Kettler

[hcrof]

As far as I am aware, there is a cavity inside the front of a T-72M which is filled with sand as opposed to composite armour on the T-72A which makes them significantly more vulnerable. I didn't imagine they were that vulnerable though so I would be interested to see those pictures of front turret kills.

I also think that the side armour of a T-72 is very thin compared with T-64/T-80, as part of the philosophy that it is a compromise system, delivering big bang for buck. That weight no doubt was used up armouring the front.

[TheVulture]

Turn 23

Since things are quietening down a bit, I start moving some men out to deal with the injured from the artillery strike. One or two enemy units are seen running around and they mostly come of fairly badly. I's not a great surprise when at the end of the turn the Syrians surrender.

Not the best result for me - a minor victory. Yeah, we won the fight, but lost rather more men than I'd like, and certainly more than I should. The mechanised attack from the south hurt me with the loss of two trucks and quite a lot of men to the BMPs, and then overreacting to that left me exposed to the t-90s which cost me another truck and a tank.

The Syrians have a surprising amount of stuff left. In the south there are 4 BMPs and about 20 men:

Behind them in the creek there are two BMPs stuck in the mud, one apparently with a full squad trapped inside:

And in the north, there is still a t-90 rolling around unharmed, along with two BDRMs (one more ATGM variant, and a normal one that was the platoon HQ for the 3 ATGM BDTRM). There are about 10 or so men of the recon platoon scattered around.

This result isn't good enough to win the campaign however - I am kicked back to the radar station mission again. But this is the end of the AAR however, since a) only a few days left until the holidays when I won't be able to get to this machine for about 2 weeks, and I've already covered those battles.

Many thanks to snake_eye for making this excellent campaign. I've had a blast playing it; I didn't know what sort of missions were involved before starting, so I was very happy that they turned out to be company size, infantry based and with beautiful rural maps, which happen to be by favourite type.

I've had a lot of fun doing this AAR - hope y'all have enjoyed reading it.

[Thomm]

Thanks for the great work!

Worthy of being made "sticky", as far as I am concerned!

Best regards,

Thomm

[SSG Grymm]

SSG Grymm,

Please find and post those pics!

John Kettler

I'll dig around in the basement for that photo album over the holidays. My present wife pretty much put all my old gear and memorabilia down there. I wish I had taken alot more photos, but never thought about it at the time, LOL.

[Thomm]

... but never thought about it at the time, LOL.

If I understand correctly, you were in a war back then ... so you are excused!

I guess nobody (sane?) would like to hang around a tank that (in all likelihood) was crewed when it was hit.

Best regards,

Thomm

[snake_eye]

Thanks for your praise THE VULTURE. However, I really think that you are the one deserving it. During all the time of the AAR posting, I have been awaiting impatiently the moment when I would follow your progression. Your reports and shots were top. You really sent me a fantastic Xmas gift doing that AAR. That is the top most kudos that can be made to a scenario designer.

As for the campaign, you are right, there is no need to get back to that infamous Radar Station, since you did its AAR already. Maybe, I should have done another battle, rather that have the player going back in a preceding battle. The pleasure to have the AAR go for another battle won’t happen. That is life! Anyway you did well in the fight and if you want one day to try it in TCP/IP Real Time and or PBME, I am OK for playing against you. Don’t mind to be Red and or Blue and to know the scenario.

Merry Xmas to you and your family The VULTURE.

Greg KELLER – Snake –Eye -

[SSG Grymm]

If I understand correctly, you were in a war back then ... so you are excused!

I guess nobody (sane?) would like to hang around a tank that (in all likelihood) was crewed when it was hit.

Best regards,

Thomm

I was, Desert Storm are the ones of the T-72M's, BMP's, BRDM's and even a french APC. When I took the pics they were at a collection point(command was having mechanics recover some destroyed/abandon vehicles to decide which we'd ship back stateside) while we got re-supplied and received a new OPORD, so no good excuse except being young and not thinking of years down the road. I took 6 of the plastic coated disposable cameras and only took 2 worth of pics. I had the luxury of a large vehicle(M3 with 1 crewmen short) to carry gear on that deployment even.

[John Kettler]

TheVulture,

Thanks for a first class set of DARs/AARs. Phenomenal stuff!

hcrof,

Sand, eh? Technically, that means the T-72M has siliceous core armor, which is what all the M1s had prior to the HAs. Granted, the M1 armor layout was a bit more sophisticated than just pouring sand into an empty space! I believe there was some talk of ceramic pellets in the T-72 homeland versions way back during the Cold War, but such things were little better than speculation.

SSG Grymm,

Here's hoping you didn't get a dose of DU dust via inhalation! Look forward to seeing those pics!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Blackcat]

Thanks, The Vulture, for an excellent and very well crafted AAR - great commentary accompnaied by lovely screen shots.

Maybe after the holidays you coudl find time to do another one.

[hcrof]

hcrof,

Sand, eh? Technically, that means the T-72M has siliceous core armor, which is what all the M1s had prior to the HAs. Granted, the M1 armor layout was a bit more sophisticated than just pouring sand into an empty space! I believe there was some talk of ceramic pellets in the T-72 homeland versions way back during the Cold War, but such things were little better than speculation.

Now that I said that, I can't for the life of me find out where I got that little bit of information but AFAIK, quality varied. The 'textbook' solution was vertical sand bars in some kind of matrix. It wasn't just beach sand but I can't remember what the stuff was. I assume this was designed to deflect HEAT jets and it apparently worked quite well. On the other hand, when production numbers were looking a bit iffey, quality went down and the factory took a few short cuts with the filling.

Unfortunately I don't have my books with me right now (It being christmas and all ) so don't take any of that as established fact untill I can find some sources!

[Yair Iny]

The Vulture,

Just thought I'd chime in to say thanks for a riveting AAR.

Cheers

[SSG Grymm]

I was, Desert Storm are the ones of the T-72M's, BMP's, BRDM's and even a french APC. When I took the pics they were at a collection point(command was having mechanics recover some destroyed/abandon vehicles to decide which we'd ship back stateside) while we got re-supplied and received a new OPORD, so no good excuse except being young and not thinking of years down the road. I took 6 of the plastic coated disposable cameras and only took 2 worth of pics. I had the luxury of a large vehicle(M3 with 1 crewmen short) to carry gear on that deployment even.

I found my photo album yesterday. I'll get the pics online when I go back to work(they have a better scanner than I do), but I will let you know the album got somewhat damp, some pictures were wreaked completely, some are stuck inside the sheets and when I try to remove them the picture separates from the backing. But I'll post what I got.

On side note this is another reason I wish I had thought about the future a bit more, I would have taken more pics, made extra copies and/or saved negatives.

[souldierz]

TheVulture,That was interesting to read and good job on the DAR you took time to type.Most of your screen shots were amazing and worthy of a CMSF poster to be displayed in full human form.Good eye for the artistic value in some of the pictures and for showing the overall situation.Also this looks like a well put together Campaign that Snake Eyes spent time creating so kudos to him as well.To bad the campaign didn't work out so well for you lol, but thanks for staying honest and not lying and erasing tragedies that happened.You stated there's a few parts you played over dew to screen shot value so that's OK, we can let it slide lol.

I would call this a sad story,one of great loss, but also a story of great strength, it shows the determination the Marines had in overcoming and completing their mission no matter what the cost's, even tho the cost's were high.For this story, a sad but yet gentle uplifting tune would come into play that hits the soul.

In the first mission you described what you thought was a bug, but how i see it,it was a 1 in million chance.As I was reading about that miraculous m203 grenade round that the sniper team fired at the enemy killing 5 men, reminded me of a time in Armed Assault when i was palying on the TG server.The exact same thing happened and it was caught on Fraps by some1 and put on youtube.There were a lot of new people in this mission and things got unorganized and turned for the worst.All the vehicles were destroyed and all leaders were KIA and people were going down.What made it more tense was that we had to run out of the village on foot back to a FOB that was a good distance away with the enemy hot on our tail, almost like the Mogadishu mile.In many cases people wanted the glory on saving an allies life that the whole fire team would forget about the threats and swarm the downed man.This video shows what was called the "epic grenade"and why not to stay crowded.I kid you not, the phrase " man It would suck if a grenade hit these guys but then they would learn the lesson"just entered my head when...

In the second mission that near Blue on blue airstrike had me breathless so to speak.I'm happy there were no casualties as a result of that, that was tense.Keep troops away from Airstrike areas lol.The high noon showdown was one of my favorite parts good pic to go with that situation.

In the 3rd mission it looked like there was some real tough and restricted terrain.This one i found it to be heartbreaking for both sides.The title massacre would fit well.The Syrians were getting slaughtered in the open and that charge the HQ spec ops tried to pull ended up being a bloody mess for them.For the Marines the one squad that was hit hard and almost wiped out going for the radar station was their massacre and moral dropper.

In the 4th mission in looks like the Syrian forces got themselves some payback.That arty raining on the Marines in the opening scene was way to costly and that's why i learned to keep my men in the vehicles at first or in some form of hard cover.Mission designers like to hit you with arty right off the bat.The Marines took many loss's and in this mission the Abrams tanks are glorified to being the ones who pulled through and saved the day for the Marines.

These pics i thought were top notch from the DAR campaign.

[Other Means]

I'll add my thanks to the others - great stuff.

[John Kettler]

SSG Grymm,

How sad so many of your pics were ruined, but that's why there's a collecting category called emphemera! Part of its value lies precisely in the heavy attrition its fellows undergo, leaving only a few survivors from the whole that once was. The problem's even worse, now, with people's photos in ever obsolescing digital formats, on hard drives that can and do fail. Look forward to seeing what you did salvage!

Regards,

John Kettler

[SSG Grymm]

I head back to the office on Monday. Theres not much, like I said a lot were outright ruined and some are sticking to the album sheets. I'll get what I got scanned in on Monday I hope.

[John Kettler]

SSG Grymm,

Much appreciated, and I see I can't type today! Should read "ephemera." You may be able to save some of the others via freezing and freeze drying techniques. These were used to save many rare items when Florence, Italy flooded.

The How

http://www.co.chippewa.wi.us/emergency_management/flood/freeze%20flood%20damaged%20photos%20and%20documents.htm

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/index.cfm?PAGE=3246

One Who, complete with capability list and prices. Pretty cheap, all considered.

http://www.midwestfreezedryltd.com/Rapid%20Reponse.htm

Found all of these with this Google search term freeze drying for flood damaged books

Good luck!

Regards,

John Kettler