The Modern Warfare 2 Controversy

[Arisaka99]

Should we ban everything that you don't like? Can you send me a list of approved electronic activities? I'd hate to offend you after all.

Yes, what do you have against terrorist training programs ? No, in reality it I think it should be banned to any household with children under 16 in it along with GTA$$whole.

[Other Means]

Yes, what do you have against terrorist training programs ? No, in reality it I think it should be banned to any household with children under 16 in it along with GTA$$whole.

It is. If the parents ban it.

[Arisaka99]

It is. If the parents ban it.

But they don't usually.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Then they can't complain.

People asking for a ban to protect their children are basically owning up to being lazy parents.

[Stalins Organ]

Of course they can complain. People can complain about anything ...and usually do.

The fact that it should be in their power to control is irrelevant! lol

[Boeman]

I don't see how this is different from, say, GTA or Hitman games. Except maybe that CoD series is rather cheesy in how they always try to throw those 'shocking' spectacles at the player, like the Volga crossing in CoD 1, for the sake of cheese. It got dull really quickly.

I remember the Volga crossing in CoD1. On Veteran difficulty it took the better half of the day just to run 150 yards!

[costard]

Of course they can complain. People can complain about anything ...and usually do.

The fact that it should be in their power to control is irrelevant! lol .

Then they can't complain.

People asking for a ban to protect their children are basically owning up to being lazy parents..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Other Means

It is. If the parents ban it.

But they don't usually.

Here you have to have a "Working with Children" check (you're given a card to carry) if you want to be a crossing guard, a teacher, a lecturer... fines and jail beckon if you try to avoid the system (or believe that paying a tax of $180 for the possibility of work is an unconscionable act). Another bureaucracy, another tax brought about because lame and lazy arseholes can't be bothered taking responsibility for their own actions and can't be bothered policing their children.

Problem is, people are too lazy and too stupid to think about how good a job someone else is going to do of taking responsibility for their actions; if I was going to be held responsible for a [stupid] person's behaviour, I'd need power of attorney and all their money. And the right to lock them in a dark cupboard for the remainder of their un-natural.

[Thomm]

Should we ban everything that you don't like? Can you send me a list of approved electronic activities? I'd hate to offend you after all.

Sorry if I upset you by posting my opinion. Certainly, I do not want to interfere with your personal freedom of simulating the killing of unarmed citizens on your PC.

By "banned", I mean banned for children/teenagers under 18 (which hopefully it is, anyway).

But honestly, if you defend that kind of games, any further discussion is pointless, so I leave it at that.

Best regards,

Thomm

[MeatEtr]

Well, somebody made another petition, post-launch this time. Since the first one didn't gain much traction because apparently there were too many signing it several times. This is probably going nowhere, but I still signed it as well.

http://www.petitiononline.com/mw2pcpr/petition.html

This of course has nothing to do with their marketing ploy(airport scene).

[Sgt Joch]

Thomm,

I also personally think the airport level is in poor taste, but to me, turning it into a legal/criminal issue is not the solution.

To begin with, I am certain it is impossible to ban the game in the United States and probably Canada as well, because of the freedom of expression rights inscribed in our respective constitutions.

Secondly, If you ban the game, where do you then draw the line? I can think of shows like "24" and many movies which had similar plot lines, should they be banned as well?

Banning cultural works (and I consider a PC/video game to be on the same cultural level as a TV show/movie/book) is a very slippery slope and should only be used in the most extreme circumstances. For example, all western societies now agree that child pornography is criminal and is not protected by the "freedom of speech" clause.

But more importantly, I see this as more of a parental responsibility to oversee what your children are exposed to and how it affects their upbringing. I certainly would not buy this game for a 8-10 year old, but I dont see a problem if someone 17 or older plays it.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Yes, what do you have against terrorist training programs ? No, in reality it I think it should be banned to any household with children under 16 in it along with GTA$$whole.

Do you really think video games can act as "terrorist training programs"?

I think we have a bigger problem than video game violence here.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Do you really think video games can act as "terrorist training programs"?

I mean, I guess technically they could.

The question is whether they do, and I haven't seen one (that's been released in the West). Isn't the whole point of the level to get you to hate the terrorists more?

I think we have a bigger problem than video game violence here.

Agreed.

[Michael Emrys]

Do you really think video games can act as "terrorist training programs"?

If you mean that literally as associated with terrorist groups, then probably not. On the other hand, there is some evidence to show that increased violence in many forms of entertainment is desensitizing people to violence in general.

I think we have a bigger problem than video game violence here.

Absolutely, and it may be foolish to obsess about violence as depicted in games and other forms of entertainment to the neglect of other influences. The rise of violence has many causes, but violence in entertainment is one of them and it may be especially influential among the young when basic attitudes and habits are being set in the individual. This is especially so in families where parents have more or less abdicated close, personal relationships with their children.

Michael

[Tero]

By Michael Emrys

On the other hand, there is some evidence to show that increased violence in many forms of entertainment is desensitizing people to violence in general.

And that differs how from real life violence (and other forms of hardships) people of all ages were exposed to prior to the introduction of TV (and to some extent the radio) ?

The rise of violence has many causes, but violence in entertainment is one of them and it may be especially influential among the young when basic attitudes and habits are being set in the individual. This is especially so in families where parents have more or less abdicated close, personal relationships with their children.

IMO single parent (most often the parent being female) has more influence in this development.

[dieseltaylor]

Tero - the influence of media violence has been covered here before with links to the studies etc. It seems you must have missed that one. The bottom line was that there is an increase in violence due to media.

An American child saw something like 10000 murders by their teens. The implication I suppose is that murdering people solves problems. Violence in the media now as opposed to 30 years ago is much more prevalent - not only TV but with computer games.

Problem solving by violence - yep compared to programs problem solving by negotiation, compromise, walking away - much easier. The media might find that too complicated.

[dieseltaylor]

Tero - the influence of media violence has been covered here before with links to the studies etc. It seems you must have missed that one*. The bottom line was that there is an increase in violence due to media.

An American child saw something like 10000 murders by their teens. The implication I suppose is that murdering people solves problems. Violence in the media now as opposed to 30 years ago is much more prevalent - not only TV but with computer games.

Problem solving by violence - yep compared to programs problem solving by negotiation, compromise, walking away - much easier. The media might find that too complicated.

*

Tero

Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2000

Posts: 1,924

By dieseltaylor

Quote:

In any event I am all for sex but media violence is proven to have behavioural effects on those who watch it. And I don't mean good effects.

http://www.media-awareness.ca/englis...a_violence.cfm

Interesting read. What I was left missing in the studies is the effects of increase in the single parent families and how having the mother (lets face it, women get the custody most of the time) take care of growing boys.

It was the Fallujah thread where all the speechifying was. This book below is the one where the vast majority of the 3500 studies were examined

"A cognitive psychology of mass communication

By Richard Jackson Harris

Is the book I linked to. There are many interesting excerpts/pages to read in the book but the one that is perhaps most valid is that the studies tend to come out with a 10-15% figure attributable to the media for violence. Obviously not as important as poverty etc etc but significant in being a controllable factor."

[Tero]

By dieseltaylor

Tero - the influence of media violence has been covered here before with links to the studies etc. It seems you must have missed that one*. The bottom line was that there is an increase in violence due to media.

Did not miss it. Just want to point out the (apparent) difference between exposure to real life violence as opposed to exposure to disjointed images of violence.

An American child saw something like 10000 murders by their teens. The implication I suppose is that murdering people solves problems.

IMO the link is more apparent to the prevalent "thou shalt not discipline your child" way of rearing our young. When children are not tought to respect fellow men starting with their elders but to regard their personal freedom and hedonistic must-have-all way of life to be supreme force in their life media violence is only an outlier and disjointed from the big picture. Then there is the total hypocritical denial of all things natural in the form of sex which warps the youth in their way of thinking. In short, how the hell do people think they can raise compassionate children if they do not teach them respect ? This focusing on violence is ignoring the bulk of the issue.

Violence in the media now as opposed to 30 years ago is much more prevalent - not only TV but with computer games.

I think the violence has always been there. Nowadays it is only way too graphic.

Problem solving by violence - yep compared to programs problem solving by negotiation, compromise, walking away - much easier. The media might find that too complicated.

It is a conspiracy I tell you.....

[Michael Emrys]

And that differs how from real life violence (and other forms of hardships) people of all ages were exposed to prior to the introduction of TV (and to some extent the radio) ?

The answer to that depends on how you view several other questions, among them these:

1. Do we regard interpersonal violence as a good thing? That is, does it make for healthier, happier people? If so, by all means let's promote it. If not, then shouldn't we undertake to limit and reduce it by whatever means?

2. I agree that real life episodes of violence have a more shocking and profound effect on the mind and personality than fictional depictions do, but if the latter create and atmosphere conducive to the former, should we not be thinking about restricting or eliminating the latter? I am particularly concerned about making depictions of not just acts of violence, but cruel and brutal violence a regular part of play. That makes it easier to cross over into an acceptance of casual violence real life.

IMO single parent (most often the parent being female) has more influence in this development.

Perhaps. In the post you are responding to I explicitly stated that many things may contribute to an individual's decision to embrace violence in any given moment of their lives. One of those is a lack of firm but sympathetic guidance from a parental figure. It isn't enough though to say to the developing child that "thou shalt not". Even more it is necessary to lead the child through the steps of discovering solutions to real life problems that aren't anti-social and ultimately self defeating. But this requires the commitment of really large amounts of time, and that is precisely what many parents are unwilling or unable to do.

Michael

[Tero]

By Michael Emrys

1. Do we regard interpersonal violence as a good thing? That is, does it make for healthier, happier people? If so, by all means let's promote it. If not, then shouldn't we undertake to limit and reduce it by whatever means?

Violence is. There can not be interaction between people without it. In any and every form it exists.

Is it good ? No.

Does it make for healthier, happier people ? What does (would) total absence of it do to people ? Has anybody studied that, actually ? Sensory deprivation WILL drive one insane quite rapidly. I agree with the postulation that being exposed to violent imagery predisposes one to act a certain way. But only if there is no adjoining exposure to both the real effects of violence and respect for ones fellow mans right to exist.

If not, then shouldn't we undertake to limit and reduce it by whatever means?

What do you mean: reduce it in frequency and intensity ? A child will not believe you when you say doing that will hurt you (let alone another person) unless a) the child does not know pain and the child recocknices you as an authority. Consequently hurting other people is easier if you do not know the real effects of violence and you have no concept of taking responsibility for your actions. I do not condone child abuse. By the same token I do not condone not disciplining a child.

2. I agree that real life episodes of violence have a more shocking and profound effect on the mind and personality than fictional depictions do, but if the latter create and atmosphere conducive to the former, should we not be thinking about restricting or eliminating the latter?

Ie you think buring your head in the sand is an appropriate response to this "problem" ? I let my eldest watch war movies with me and play PG (K-11 over here) games which are quite violent. But I also let him watch war documentaries with me. The effect is twofold: he learns about the weaponry and tactics and he sees what they actually do. My two eldest watched a rather gruesome documentary on Hiroshima victims by mistake one night. They found it interesting, especially the shadow burnt to the ground was very compelling to them. We spent an hour online after that seeking more information on the subject.

I am particularly concerned about making depictions of not just acts of violence, but cruel and brutal violence a regular part of play. That makes it easier to cross over into an acceptance of casual violence real life.

IMO only if the concept of mercy and compassion are absent.

Perhaps. In the post you are responding to I explicitly stated that many things may contribute to an individual's decision to embrace violence in any given moment of their lives. One of those is a lack of firm but sympathetic guidance from a parental figure. It isn't enough though to say to the developing child that "thou shalt not". Even more it is necessary to lead the child through the steps of discovering solutions to real life problems that aren't anti-social and ultimately self defeating. But this requires the commitment of really large amounts of time, and that is precisely what many parents are unwilling or unable to do.

That is true.

What I meant actually was the female group dynamics and conflict solving differs from the male counterparts. Single moms can not make boys act like girls if they are wired differently. Single dads are notoriously inept when it comes to dealing with girls. What makes single moms better with boys ?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I thought most research seemed to indicate that violent games kept kids prone to violence in their basement playing games rather then climbing the bell tower.

[Tero]

By Elmar Bijlsma

I thought most research seemed to indicate that violent games kept kids prone to violence in their basement playing games rather then climbing the bell tower.

What basement playing games are they playing if they are playing violent video games all the time ?

Seriously: when have boys ever played serenely, peacefully and unviolently without being sedated or otherwise medicated ?

[Thomm]

Seriously: when have boys ever played serenely, peacefully and unviolently without being sedated or otherwise medicated ?

Let me see:

As "knights" we fought with sawed-off broomsticks.

Indoors, MP-40s and AKs made from Fischer Technik were used complete with bajonetts (red rail part).

On the tactical level, Playmobil was used because one could stick swords between trunk and legs.

Pyrotechnics was used extensively on plastic models, including a nuclear attack simulated including one-meter fireball by my late grandfather using terpentine on a diorama.

It was all pretty WYSIWYG in my childhood.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Tero]

By Thomm

Let me see:

As "knights" we fought with sawed-off broomsticks.

Indoors, MP-40s and AKs made from Fischer Technik were used complete with bajonetts (red rail part).

On the tactical level, Playmobil was used because one could stick swords between trunk and legs.

Pyrotechnics was used extensively on plastic models, including a nuclear attack simulated including one-meter fireball by my late grandfather using terpentine on a diorama.

It was all pretty WYSIWYG in my childhood.

I spot at least 5 security hazards or psychological sings in the list which nowadays would be grounds for you being taken into custody by the child/social services.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

If you mean that literally as associated with terrorist groups, then probably not. On the other hand, there is some evidence to show that increased violence in many forms of entertainment is desensitizing people to violence in general.

Being desensitized to violence hardly makes one a terrorist. This is the hyperbole that Clavicula Nox and I were pointing out.

[MeatEtr]

It's just a high tech way of playing cops & robbers or cowboys & indians. Or how about old school, greeks & trojans.