Mines and Tile Coverage?

[Double Deuce]

I managed to find numerous old mine related threads but none that seemed to answer this question.

Basically, does a single Mine Marker cover a single 8x8 meter terrain tile? If I want to cover a 4x4 grid would that require 16 mines or does the single mine marker placement extend further?

I found all the Mine Marking/Clear information but nothing seemed to confirm the tile coverage question.

[Secondbrooks]

True. I don't have clue of this subject either. I've always expected them to cover one tile.

Anyways as we have mine thread i might as well ask that does area fire, be it direct or indirect, have effect in mines and there fore be used in mine clearing jobs?

[MikeyD]

Don't have a clue on this either, and I was just playing with mines last night too. I wouldn't know how to tell! The game seems to set an unknown number of mines buried inside an unknown area. You can walk a man through the middle and if the guy doesn't literally step on a mine nothing goes off. I guess you could plant one mine then march waves of infantry to their deaths across it, see how far out from the mine marker the carnage goes.

[hcrof]

I'm pretty sure that there are a set number of mines buried in the one tile. Tiles are just never alone.

I really hope that BFC does a better job of minefields and other engineering for Normandy because the ones in CMSF are pretty frustrating given you can't find or clear them. Because of that they are never really used by scenario designers

[MikeyD]

Its not that minefields work badly, its more that they work too well. Lay a decent minefield between the attacker and your troops and you might as well go read a book because the minefield will do your work for you. That's why scenario designers avoid them.

I've been toying with the concept of including large minefield but marking them as known minefields, using them as barriers. That seems to be how they work 80% of the time anyway. The one big thing BFC could add for engineers is a mine plough or roller device. Giving engineers fiberglass sticks to poke into the ground ahead of them as they crawl on their bellies is not the best use of time for a 1.5 hour scenario.

[Apocal]

MICLICs are soley missed.

[MikeyD]

I just ran a dirty little test. Planted one antipersonell mine and walked a whole company of infantry over it.

The results were six explosions, only two creating craters (are some mine bouncing mines?). I neglected to measure the distance but you can tell the footprint by the pattern of the bodies. Screenshot below.

[MikeyD]

Oh, and on the topic of how many mines are needed to protect a given area. The purpose of the minefield may not necessarily be to kill everyone who walks onto it. It might do just as well to simply dissuade the attacker from trying his luck. After the third guy immediately ahead of you loses a body part the incentive to make your way to the far side of the potato field diminishes somewhat.

[Sergei]

The primary utility of mines is to slow down the attacker and allow defenders to prepare. If they are determined, they will still push through after finding a route or clearing the mines, but by then defenders know where to expect them or have disengaged.

[Paper Tiger]

Has anyone tried 'removing' them with artillery?

[MikeyD]

You ask, and I try it out

120mm mortars. Walked the infantry over afterward. You can see these guys set off the mine at the bottom of a crater, so artillery doesn't set 'em off.

[flamingknives]

I rather suspect that artillery isn't guaranteed to clear mines - they might get thrown about the place and not set off.

[Secondbrooks]

I rather suspect that artillery isn't guaranteed to clear mines - they might get thrown about the place and not set off.

Yeah. This was problem some ww2 engineers have talked about. Blowing up minefield was more safe and faster way, but in the end they still would need to get there to clear rest of mines (which didnt' go off with explosives) with their hands. And when area is turned up-side-down by explosives it gets very dangerous even for seasoned engineers to find and neutralize those which remain.

But that was about clearing large mine-fields in rear-areas. So it's basically different than in battlefield, where few casualties from "artillerized" minefield can be more interesting option than going head to head with concentrated enemy defense. Then again just how effective artillery would be? how dense should fire be to make something like 90% of mines to blow up... I dont' have an idea, but i would think it would require lots of ammo wasted.

Direct fire... There probably are loads fo cases from ww2 to this day about using direct fire it to clear mines and such from one's path, but are they relevant for CMSF's scope? CMSF's mines are dug in ground and concealed.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Artillery DOES destroy minefields!

Ok this screenshot was after 2 minutes of 6 150mm tubes firing on heavy, but the minefield went green at the end of the first turn, approximately 30 secs of firing, i just let it run a bit longer for the smoke to clear so i could get a decent screeny

[Jonny(FGM)]

Just ran another quick test. It took 3 or 4 (couldn't tell, was in turn based mode and 2 shells arrived in one turn) to destroy the minefield.

3 or 4 150mm shells to save potentially large amounts of friendly casualties, worth it? i would say so, especially seeing as light/heavy gun ammo seems to be virtually unlimited

[Gromit]

You know, I was reading the other day and wondering some of the same things MikeyD. A lot of the official german books I have on tactics and the like very clearly point out the use of "Achtung MINEN!" signs of various sorts, black, red, picture only, words only, etc., etc.

One does get the distinct feeling that there were plenty of fake "marked" minefields in use (boy Hans! That was sure easy compared to the last one!) yet, does anyone know of more definitive data available on this whole subject?

I suspect my memory is forever tainted by all the hundreds (thousands?) of war movies I have viewed in my short 45 years of existance. **sigh**

Oh well. Takers?

[Ryujin]

Well it only takes one mine/sign to make a minefield. Why waste a lot of time putting down a real minefield in an area you can't cover by fire (so it'll be quickly removed)? A siqn and maybe a handful of mines will do the trick and let the other side waste their time removing your "minefield".

In terms of German minefields, this US engineer's report (from africa) mentions some tricks like false minefields and false gaps in real minefields.

http://www.allworldwars.com/German-Minefields-at-Alamein.html