Javelins - Just Another Day

[Battlefront.com]

Cheaper than a Mk I Soldier, correct. Unfortunately the enemy's Mk I Insurgent is worth about $10 and sometimes uses a $1 doorbell, $0.50 worth of batteries, $0.25 worth of wire, and a freebie artillery round left over from Papa Sadam. Toss in a couple of cents worth of duct tape and they have a weapon to take out several Mk I Soldiers riding around in a top heavy buggy worth six figures. Good thing accountants don't determine who wins wars.

Steve

[c3k]

Steve,

As alluded to in this thread, as well as in other threads, there is a "undocumented feature" with Javelins impacting approximately 47 meters in front of the firing unit. This occurs with a frequency which does not correlate with a term such as "rarely".

I do not remember the status of this issue. (There were several savegames posted and made available to the Betas.) Has this been addressed?

Thanks,

Ken

[c3k]

Ahh, please disregard the above. I just did search using "Javelin" and my username as poster and found the thread. It is here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=86316&highlight=javelin

The last post is by Steve, commenting on its status.

Please continue...

Thanks,

Ken

[JP76er]

Ahh, please disregard the above. I just did search using "Javelin" and my username as poster and found the thread. It is here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=86316&highlight=javelin

The last post is by Steve, commenting on its status.

Please continue...

Thanks,

Ken

Thanks for posting that link. With the input I have received on this thread, I've learned a lot on the Javelin. Looking foward to the upcoming adds to the game.

[JP76er]

"As for using these expensive missiles (IIRC $78,000 a pop) to whack inexpensive light infantry... happens all the time. I was at a conference with a Lt. Colonel who specifically authorized a Javelin to be used against an annoying sniper who was on a rooftop. When they got up there they found very little left of the sniper and whomever was up there with him. That was first couple of weeks into OIF."

I'm more than happy to see them use our tax dollars & the Javelin to whack out troublesome combatants instead of putting soldiers in harm's way. I know the brass won't be too happy to see it happen frequently, but it's much better seeing your folks healthy & in one piece. Does any one know how far up the chain of command you have to go to be able to fire a Javelin this way? Is it fluid per how dangerous the situation it is to the troops?

[Battlefront.com]

Looking at the vast numbers of Javelins used by both the US and British I'd say authorization in general comes at Platoon level and lower. I cited the Lt. Colonel's story not to say that he had to specifically authorize the use of the Javelin, rather to say that he endorsed the use of against a single soft target.

The full story, as he presented it, was that the sniper had them pinned down and no matter what they tried they couldn't hit the guy because of the angles involved (he was several stories up). For other reasons they couldn't go kicking in the doors and rush up to the rooftop. So things just stayed stagnant for a while until a PFC came up to the LTC and said "sir, I think I can get him with my Javelin", to which the LTC responded "if you think you can do it, go for it". The LTC was relating this story to us as an example of the creativity of problem solving that even the lowest level, least seasoned soldiers in the American military can offer when put into a challenging situation.

Steve

[Sixxkiller]

I think it was less creativity than it was he just wanted to make a big boom boom! Chicks dig the big boom boom.

[Clavicula_Nox]

I think it was less creativity than it was he just wanted to make a big boom boom! Chicks dig the big boom boom.

Yeah. Soldiers like firing their weapons. The bigger the blast + explosion increases their desire to fire said weapon. That kid had probably been sitting around with that javelin for days thinking "Great, when do I get to fire the javelin?" over and over.

[Battlefront.com]

That's exactly right I remember right after seeing the Javelin kill a T-72 I wound up talking to a youngish guy manning the desk at a small military vehicle museum. I mentioned it and he got this strange look on his face before saying "I humped one of those damned things around for more than a f'n year and I NEVER got to fire one! What did that bastard do to get to not only fire them but to do it at a real vehicle?!?". He was a little animated when he said this

Steve

[JP76er]

I know I would have one itchy trigger finger wanting to launch one. It's definitely a good thing that even the lowest ranking guy out there can & will come up with good solutions at the right time & be listened to. Plus, he really did want to fire that baby off!

On another thing I thought was a bug in the game at first; leveling a building & then have an enemy soldier pop up & fire at you later on in the mission. Usually a well aimed RPG at one of your Strykers. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe it was the “Hell House” in Fallujah where the marines were ambushed in a heavily fortified house. The marines got their wounded out & then leveled the place. An insurgent still tossed out a grenade from the rubble after the house was destroyed. I read the book, “My Men Are My Heroes: The Brad Kasal Story” awhile back & I believe that is where I read it. It's an excellent book for those who have not read it yet. In the game, I now always sweep the area after leveling a building just to make sure I’m not regretting a survivor shot later. Definitely not a bug but a hard earned lesson you don’t forget.

[Pandur]

iam doing this since CMx1, that was not uncommon there either. especially nasty when you are takeing a house down and the enemy can leave it safely on the back side in time(was simple in CMx1 without the doors), and as soon as it colapses(or after the fire stoped) useing the dust to crawl back into the rubble wich became a formidable posistion in CMx1 and rubble is quiet good in CMx2 too.

[Clavicula_Nox]

I know I would have one itchy trigger finger wanting to launch one. It's definitely a good thing that even the lowest ranking guy out there can & will come up with good solutions at the right time & be listened to. Plus, he really did want to fire that baby off!

On another thing I thought was a bug in the game at first; leveling a building & then have an enemy soldier pop up & fire at you later on in the mission. Usually a well aimed RPG at one of your Strykers. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe it was the “Hell House” in Fallujah where the marines were ambushed in a heavily fortified house. The marines got their wounded out & then leveled the place. An insurgent still tossed out a grenade from the rubble after the house was destroyed. I read the book, “My Men Are My Heroes: The Brad Kasal Story” awhile back & I believe that is where I read it. It's an excellent book for those who have not read it yet. In the game, I now always sweep the area after leveling a building just to make sure I’m not regretting a survivor shot later. Definitely not a bug but a hard earned lesson you don’t forget.

Fallujah is hard to quantify because most of the insurgent strongholds were connected by vast tunnel works that were never secured. In fact, while Fallujah was on-going, those on the outside kept saying "They're using tunnels...they're using tunnels..." but it wasn't until Fallujah was long done with that the Marines admitted "Hey, they might have been using tunnels."

Tell-tale signs include:

-Being shot at from sewers

-Being shot at from locations previously secured

-Putting a lot of fire in a stronghold; moving in with troops, and not finding a single body

-Captured insurgents blabbing about using tunnels to out-maneuver you

All of these things were going on in Fallujah, so to hear that someone threw a grenade from rubble without knowing the rest of the story is kinda suspect.

[Dietrich]

On another thing I thought was a bug in the game at first; leveling a building & then have an enemy soldier pop up & fire at you later on in the mission. Usually a well aimed RPG at one of your Strykers. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe it was the “Hell House” in Fallujah where the marines were ambushed in a heavily fortified house. The marines got their wounded out & then leveled the place. An insurgent still tossed out a grenade from the rubble after the house was destroyed. . . . In the game, I now always sweep the area after leveling a building just to make sure I’m not regretting a survivor shot later. Definitely not a bug but a hard earned lesson you don’t forget.

As far as it applies to CMSF, I had been operating under the assumption that razing a building would leave anyone inside WIA/KIA. Experience, though, has shown that evidently there's some abstraction going on, so as often as not at least one guy survives amid the rubble. The last time I remember that happening was in playing the first mission of George MC's "Forging Steel" campaign -- I levelled three adjoining buildings with a medium-length linear impact-fuzed Paladin (155mm) fire mission, but as I moved a rifle squad in to reconnoiter the area, they took effective fire from the rubble. Reviewing the map at mission's end showed that a couple of "Threat" infantry had survived amid the rubble of those artillery-demolished buildings.

As it applies to the "house from hell", according to the TV show I saw about it, one of the insurgents who was on the roof of the building when the Marines demolished it survived long enough to toss a grenade at them when they moved in to make sure the area was secured.

[JP76er]

Fallujah is hard to quantify because most of the insurgent strongholds were connected by vast tunnel works that were never secured. In fact, while Fallujah was on-going, those on the outside kept saying "They're using tunnels...they're using tunnels..." but it wasn't until Fallujah was long done with that the Marines admitted "Hey, they might have been using tunnels."

Tell-tale signs include:

-Being shot at from sewers

-Being shot at from locations previously secured

-Putting a lot of fire in a stronghold; moving in with troops, and not finding a single body

-Captured insurgents blabbing about using tunnels to out-maneuver you

All of these things were going on in Fallujah, so to hear that someone threw a grenade from rubble without knowing the rest of the story is kinda suspect.

Ah, reminiscent of Cu Chi.

[JP76er]

As far as it applies to CMSF, I had been operating under the assumption that razing a building would leave anyone inside WIA/KIA. Experience, though, has shown that evidently there's some abstraction going on, so as often as not at least one guy survives amid the rubble. The last time I remember that happening was in playing the first mission of George MC's "Forging Steel" campaign -- I levelled three adjoining buildings with a medium-length linear impact-fuzed Paladin (155mm) fire mission, but as I moved a rifle squad in to reconnoiter the area, they took effective fire from the rubble. Reviewing the map at mission's end showed that a couple of "Threat" infantry had survived amid the rubble of those artillery-demolished buildings.

As it applies to the "house from hell", according to the TV show I saw about it, one of the insurgents who was on the roof of the building when the Marines demolished it survived long enough to toss a grenade at them when they moved in to make sure the area was secured.

I have the book on a bookshelf & handy in our master bedroom. I'll double check that & report back later. I thought it was Fallujah where the "house from hell" was.

[Clavicula_Nox]

I have the book on a bookshelf & handy in our master bedroom. I'll double check that & report back later. I thought it was Fallujah where the "house from hell" was.

I haven't read the book you're talking about. Keep in mind, the scenario you mention doesn't necessarily fit into the generalized template I threw out. I just know that one of the principle criticisms of Fallujah pt 2 was the Marines (and supporting Army / ING personnel) refusal to admit the possibility of tunnels and act accordingly.

If, by chance, you want to read about the single best (that I'm aware of) action regarding the seizure and clearing of a city of insurgent personnel in our time, check out 3rd ACR's Tal Afar campaign. I was actually there after the operation was mostly over with my group escorting a 3rd ACR support element from S. Iraq and left with a pretty good impression of the overrall thing. Considering Fallujah pt 2 really didn't accomplish much other than pissing off the locals, destroying a city, and letting 2,000+ bad guys escape to wreck havoc somewhere else, the Tal Afar campaign achieved most, if not all, objectives; without levelling the city, even.

[theFightingSeabee]

The insurgent surviving the building collapse and tossing a frag WAS in Fallujah. I saw the video of the guy who it happened to! In-game, it seems to happen too often imo. I've blown the living crap out of buildings with jdams just to have 3 or 4 guys survive! The concussion alone would have liquified their insides, or at the very least, have them so dazed they don't know which way is up. I could understand if there were tunnels, but I don't think tunnels are or ever will be modeled in cmsf. Just my 2 cents.

[Schmoly War]

Dont know the translation of this, but it is apparent that at least two guerillas manage to survive for a long time multiple assaults by russian forces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhF9CiJ36pg

[JP76er]

I haven't read the book you're talking about. Keep in mind, the scenario you mention doesn't necessarily fit into the generalized template I threw out. I just know that one of the principle criticisms of Fallujah pt 2 was the Marines (and supporting Army / ING personnel) refusal to admit the possibility of tunnels and act accordingly.

If, by chance, you want to read about the single best (that I'm aware of) action regarding the seizure and clearing of a city of insurgent personnel in our time, check out 3rd ACR's Tal Afar campaign. I was actually there after the operation was mostly over with my group escorting a 3rd ACR support element from S. Iraq and left with a pretty good impression of the overrall thing. Considering Fallujah pt 2 really didn't accomplish much other than pissing off the locals, destroying a city, and letting 2,000+ bad guys escape to wreck havoc somewhere else, the Tal Afar campaign achieved most, if not all, objectives; without levelling the city, even.

Thanks for that. I will definitely check that out. Is there a book out on that or should I just Google it? Looks like you're a Ranger. I'm friends with Dale Sizemore & Steve Anderson from Somalia & Black Hawk Down. They're both great guys. Interesting item about them is if they tell you they are going to do something, they do it. You can bank on it. The Rangers definitely have a particular mind set & in my opinion, that's why they along with other Special Forces truly are the best of the best.

Most of all, welcome home & thanks for what you do! That goes for all of our servicemen & women, who have served, are serving & will serve in the future. That's from the heart.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[JP76er]

I did a quick search through Brad Kasal's book & couldn't find a note on it but I did find it in Bing West's "No True Glory"; another excellent book, in my opinion. It’s from Chapter 27, “The House From Hell” on page 303. Here's the excerpt:

"The Marines peppered the house with fire and hooted and hollered as if they were still inside while Gonzalez prepared a twenty-pound satchel charge-sufficient to blow down two houses. Gonzalez crept inside the house and placed the satchel on top of a dead insurgent’s body. A few seconds later he ran out outside.

“Fifteen Seconds!”

They ducked for cover. The house exploded in a huge flash of red, followed by chunks of concrete thudding down as a vast cloud of dust. A pink mist mixed with the dust and gunpowder in the air. Grapes was happy to see it.

The Marines waited several minutes, then moved forward into the dusty rubble. They saw two bodies lying among the slabs. As they drew closer, they noticed one of them move.

“They’re still alive!”

An arm flickered limply forward, and a grenade tumbled toward the Marines. They turned and ran for cover. Sanchez saw Grapes and Crossan racing by him. “I’m too slow! I’m f*****!” he thought. The grenade went off, injuring no one.

Seven Marines climbed back up the rubble and fired two hundred rounds into the two insurgents.”

That could ruin your day.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Thanks for that. I will definitely check that out. Is there a book out on that or should I just Google it? Looks like you're a Ranger. I'm friends with Dale Sizemore & Steve Anderson from Somalia & Black Hawk Down. They're both great guys. Interesting item about them is if they tell you they are going to do something, they do it. You can bank on it. The Rangers definitely have a particular mind set & in my opinion, that's why they along with other Special Forces truly are the best of the best.

Most of all, welcome home & thanks for what you do! That goes for all of our servicemen & women, who have served, are serving & will serve in the future. That's from the heart.

I don't know if there is a book on the Tal Afar campaign in detail (though there should be...), but many books examine the campaign at a macro scale in comparison to other things going on in the country. Off hand, I can think of Thomas Ricks' Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq and that retired Marine who wrote Insurgent Tricks. Having never actually googled for the Tal Afar campaign, I'm not sure what you would get outside some clinical news articles.

I was a Ranger in the sense that I graduated from Ranger school and earned my tab; I never served a day in an actual Ranger unit, so, to call myself a Ranger wouldn't be correct; "Ranger-Qualified" is more correct. I don't want anyone to get the impression that I'm claiming something I didn't do, so the clarification is necessary. I'm also not a soldier anymore, just a plain 23-year old college kid who randomly talks about his glory days.

I enjoy talking to and meeting guys from all of those "small" wars because the atmosphere is so much different, especially Somalia where there was a grouping of high speed;low drag infantry-types, SF, and considerable air assets...but yet, they weren't ever allowed to take the gloves off. About a year ago, I had an instructor who had been in SF during the 60's-2003 when he retired. He had been in everything from Vietnam, to OIF, and was on a concurrent SF mission in Somalia completely un-related to the TF Ranger deal. Interesting guy.

[Sixxkiller]

CN, you do remember that little graduation ceremony ya had, you know the one when ya came home from Florida, and right before your ass ran to buy as many snickers bars and Whoppers as you could find??? So earning a tab is the exact same damn thing as if you served 20 years in the Batts. Sua Sponte

[Clavicula_Nox]

Lol, dude. You mean the one that we had after we're dead ass tired after that insane full-out ruck march on hardball at the end, and then waiting around, still dead ass tired while we fill out some lame ass "course evaluation" sheets (and a little peer-review mixed in), then the nervous apprehension as each guy gets taken aside and evaluated by the RIs and told whether he's a Go or No-Go; and then jumping into the little field while still dead assed tired? That one? Yeah, I remember. I did mine immediately after Basic / AIT / Jump School, and my desire for Burger King was strong! I didn't get leave, but had to report to my first unit the day after graduation. Fun stuff for an 18 year old kid.

[ChrisND]

I made the horrific mistake of offering to take a friend and some of his buddies to dinner, my treat, after they finished SFAS. They ate more than I thought could be humanly possible.