JP76er Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I was playing Just Another Day & had spotted a sniper team in the Farmsteads area. This is not the scenario's fault which I believe is quite fun but in Shock Force itself. Have the Javelins been reduced in strength & especially too much against buildings? I fired a javelin at the rooftop the sniper team was on thinking that's the end of that. Next turn, the team pops back up firing at a squad I had moving through the trenches. Both are unharmed & good to go. Fire Javelin #2 & the very next turn? The sniper, this time alone, pops up & gives my squad in the trenches two casualties. Fire Javelin #3. I start hearing the pop of a sniper rifle again & the heavily armored (New secret armor?) sniper pops up again. $300,000.00 (I believe they are around $100,000.00 per missile) & two casualties later, the mighty sniper is still in the fight. What gives? A Javelin should & usually does major damage to a building, let alone the roof top. Is this a bug or a quirk in how the Javelins are coded in the game? It was pretty laughable & I really wanted to award the enemy sniper, the Medal of Honor. He was doing his thing way above the call of duty. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP76er Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 This time the sniper team was spotted behind a wall in the Farmstead area. Javelin #1 destroyed the whole wall but the sniper team was intact & raised up to fight once again. Fired Javelin #2 & watched it all the way to the target. Nice blast hole, part of the stone fence behind the team was destroyed but only one casualty!! Excellent death scream! Super Sniper lives on! Any changes upcoming for the Javelin's lethality? I hate to waste any more of our tax dollars, especially while the economy is in poor shape but I want to move with speed in this scenario. A Javelin is worth it to wipe out any targets lethal to my advancing squads. That is if it can kill a two man sniper team on a roof or behind a wall. Yikes!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietrich Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Your experiences, JP76er, are IMHO all the more ironic in light of the several incidences I've heard about where Javelins were used to take out snipers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I find that when the enemy is in the building, a javelin is absolutely devistating but units in the open get off with far fewer casualties. I think this is because the warhead doesn't produce much shrapnel (because it has a light casing). When it hits a building, the blast causes the building wall to create the lethal fragments. In other words, what you are seeing is realistic in my book! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
De Savage Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Check this webpage about Javelin's capabilities: http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/antiarmor/Javelin.html The Javelin is not effective when breaching structural walls. The anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) are not designed to breach structural walls effectively. All ATGMs, to include the Javelin, are designed to produce a small hole, penetrate armor, and deliver the explosive charge. Breaching calls for the creation of a large hole. Firing ATGMs is the least efficient means to defeat structural walls. ATGMs are better used against armored vehicles or for the destruction of enemy-fortified fighting positions. Javelin is not anti-personnel weapon. But I think it should manage to kill someone inside the room, if fired to the wall. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP76er Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Check this webpage about Javelin's capabilities: http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/antiarmor/Javelin.html The Javelin is not effective when breaching structural walls. The anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) are not designed to breach structural walls effectively. All ATGMs, to include the Javelin, are designed to produce a small hole, penetrate armor, and deliver the explosive charge. Breaching calls for the creation of a large hole. Firing ATGMs is the least efficient means to defeat structural walls. ATGMs are better used against armored vehicles or for the destruction of enemy-fortified fighting positions. Javelin is not anti-personnel weapon. But I think it should manage to kill someone inside the room, if fired to the wall. Thanks!! That helps a bunch. Dietrich - Is that the real world or the Shock Force game? I just tried again & it took two Javelins to take out a command group that had run into the open. One MG unit & an entire squad was also engaging the unit at approximately 250 meters unobstructed. I also had one of the famous Javelin travels 50 meters into the ground event. I know this is/was a known problem. Anything from Battlefront on this? How about the AT-4? It seems in the game as very useful in urban fighting. How does it do as far as penetrating a building? Thanks for everyone's input. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietrich Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 De Savage - Thanks for the link; looks like some rather detailed pages there. JP76er - I was referring to real-world incidents I have heard/read about in which Javelins were used against snipers and/or non-AFV targets. The Javelin may not be designed for use against infantry which are relatively in the open, but it still doesn't make sense to me that three Javelins hitting a rooftop would only cause one casualty. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP76er Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 De Savage - Thanks for the link; looks like some rather detailed pages there. JP76er - I was referring to real-world incidents I have heard/read about in which Javelins were used against snipers and/or non-AFV targets. The Javelin may not be designed for use against infantry which are relatively in the open, but it still doesn't make sense to me that three Javelins hitting a rooftop would only cause one casualty. I'm going to try it again & see if I can repeat it. I'll save the game for anyone to take a look at & I'll get some screen grabs. I really like this mission so trying it again is still fun. I just checked on Live Leak & I did see some videos of Javelins being used against infantry & buildings. I'm retired due to Multiple Sclerosis but still do a lot of work with music. My family & a friend built me an office/men's playroom & I have a really nice sound system. I have 7.1 just for game playing with the Creative Sound Blast X-Fi Pro. It is a lot of fun to play a video of a fierce firefight & just drive the wife right out of the house. The game sounds sweet too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikita320106 Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 o)ironic mode on " - why you think this is true?? - i personally saw it on TV. " ironic mofe off)) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabal23 Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 I find that when the enemy is in the building, a javelin is absolutely devistating but units in the open get off with far fewer chttp://www.battlefront.com/community/images/icons/icon11.gifasualties. I think this is because the warhead doesn't produce much shrapnel (because it has a light casing). When it hits a building, the blast causes the building wall to create the lethal fragments. In other words, what you are seeing is realistic in my book! Let me fire a Javelin while you stand on a roof and let see if you get up. Realistic? I think the concussion alone would at least knock someone out. No way would they be getting up after three successful Javelin hits. But then again I have never taken part in that particular experiment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 First of all, in that mission all of the Syrian Special forces are wearing body armour which would help protect them. Secondly, although roofs in CMSF appear flat, they are abstactly covered in 'stuff' that provides some cover. I don't want to say that it is likely, just that it is possible that a 2 man team could take only 1 casualty from 3 javelin hits in that situation. I imagine that in real life that the survivor would be pretty shook up and definately injured (hearing at least!) but might still be able to walk away. I would conduct some tests before calling it a problem in the game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP76er Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 First of all, in that mission all of the Syrian Special forces are wearing body armour which would help protect them. Secondly, although roofs in CMSF appear flat, they are abstactly covered in 'stuff' that provides some cover. I don't want to say that it is likely, just that it is possible that a 2 man team could take only 1 casualty from 3 javelin hits in that situation. I imagine that in real life that the survivor would be pretty shook up and definately injured (hearing at least!) but might still be able to walk away. I would conduct some tests before calling it a problem in the game. I am trying to recreate it. Last night, my squad on over watch took them out right away. I was just "wondering" if it was the game itself. That's why I came to the forum to ask. I also saw it take 2 Javelin shots to wipe out a 2 man sniper team hiding behind a stone wall, 2 Javelin shots to take out a command group in the open & 2 shots to take out a RPG team at the end of the woods. As far as body armor, a RPG can do a lot of damage to your Blue (American) troops with the best body armor available, if you are careless. That's why I questioned why the Javelins were not performing very well in my opinion. I have also witnessed buildings collapse with enemy units in & a couple of turns later some pop up again. Usually with a RPG shot to an armor vehicle. In my humble opinion, a building collapse would kill or incapacitate the troops inside. I am going to try again today & see if I can recreate the 3 shot scenario. I'm getting plenty of the two shots. Someone earlier in the thread posted on how the Javelin detonates & that's why some troops might survive a Javelin blast in the open. I'm still getting the "50 meter punt" Javelin shots where a missile travels about 50 meters & it nosedives into the ground. I have found that it happens in any type of conditions such as aiming at a target in cover, in the open, close, far, etc. That is definitely a bug. I have seen the missile miss where it travels towards the target & just keeps going. I think that type of an event is close to real life. I'm sure that happens in many different ways & the game reflects that correctly. Thanks for the input!! Jamie 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flanker15 Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Some things to consider: Explosive damage to infantry is reduced in CM:SF since they aren't as spaced out as they should be. RPGs have HE-frag warheads which are much better at hurting infantry than a Javelin. As mentioned above HEAT warheads are very ineffecitve at causing damage in the open, they need to detonate on the other side of something hard first. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clavicula_Nox Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 I recently restarted Task Force Thunder and had a Javelin incident on mission 1. I posted a Javelin team on the berm to kill some static tanks, and while they killed 2, the gunner fired the third shot...straight into the ground 30m in front of him. I narrowed my eyes, and made a mental note to annotate his failure whenever his squad leader chooses to cite him for a future award. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP76er Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Some things to consider: Explosive damage to infantry is reduced in CM:SF since they aren't as spaced out as they should be. RPGs have HE-frag warheads which are much better at hurting infantry than a Javelin. As mentioned above HEAT warheads are very ineffecitve at causing damage in the open, they need to detonate on the other side of something hard first. Thanks for the information. That makes sense because of the HEAT. I was just wondering if the blast itself would take out a sniper team on an open roof. Another person posted that the roof looks flat in the game but all roofs have many things on it to give cover from a blast like that. That makes sense too. I have watched Javelin hitting targets on any of the internet video sites & know I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end. Moving on to another question & probably another thread; how is the Aussie version of the Abrams? I'm interested in that & would like that POV. I'll start another thread if you are interested. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP76er Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 I recently restarted Task Force Thunder and had a Javelin incident on mission 1. I posted a Javelin team on the berm to kill some static tanks, and while they killed 2, the gunner fired the third shot...straight into the ground 30m in front of him. I narrowed my eyes, and made a mental note to annotate his failure whenever his squad leader chooses to cite him for a future award. I have seen that several times. It scares the h$$$ out of you when it happens. I first started looking around to see what large object was launching at me. I know it's been brought to their attention, it probably will be addressed with the Brit release. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP76er Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 I'll open a thread on the Australian Abrams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clavicula_Nox Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I have seen that several times. It scares the h$$$ out of you when it happens. I first started looking around to see what large object was launching at me. I know it's been brought to their attention, it probably will be addressed with the Brit release. I just rationalized it as the operator accidentally leaving the thing on "direct fire" mode and/or jerking the launcher at the last second; or even as a warhead malfunction. I've never considered it a bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP76er Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 I just rationalized it as the operator accidentally leaving the thing on "direct fire" mode and/or jerking the launcher at the last second; or even as a warhead malfunction. I've never considered it a bug. I'm not sure of what goes into firing the Javelin. Can you explain it? Doesn't the operator have to sight the target negating the use of an indirect fire mode? On firing, doesn't the operator actually snap a picture with acquisition of the needed data & fires the Javelin? I think I read that but I'm not sure. If those things actually happen, I agree that is not a bug. Still is a scary event though. It’s good that they can fire & scoot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clavicula_Nox Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I'm not sure of what goes into firing the Javelin. Can you explain it? Doesn't the operator have to sight the target negating the use of an indirect fire mode? On firing, doesn't the operator actually snap a picture with acquisition of the needed data & fires the Javelin? I think I read that but I'm not sure. If those things actually happen, I agree that is not a bug. Still is a scary event though. It’s good that they can fire & scoot. I've never fired one myself, nor have I ever used a trainer. The weapon does have 2 firing modes, the standard top-down mode, and a direct fire mode. (What if the target has overhead cover, but is otherwise exposed or the firer is not in a position conducive for overhead firing?) Basically, the javelin is two pieces of equipment. The missile/tube and the control box thing which serves as the aiming and firing device. The operator sights a target, acquires a lock, and fires the thing. The weapon is considered "fire and forget" so the operator can let lose, then quickly drop back behind cover/concealment. What I don't know is if the weapon can "lose" the lock, or if once it is acquired, it is locked until directed other by the operator. Also, there is always the chance of mechanical failure, but I don't know if CMSF models this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP76er Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 I've never fired one myself, nor have I ever used a trainer. The weapon does have 2 firing modes, the standard top-down mode, and a direct fire mode. (What if the target has overhead cover, but is otherwise exposed or the firer is not in a position conducive for overhead firing?) Basically, the javelin is two pieces of equipment. The missile/tube and the control box thing which serves as the aiming and firing device. The operator sights a target, acquires a lock, and fires the thing. The weapon is considered "fire and forget" so the operator can let lose, then quickly drop back behind cover/concealment. What I don't know is if the weapon can "lose" the lock, or if once it is acquired, it is locked until directed other by the operator. Also, there is always the chance of mechanical failure, but I don't know if CMSF models this. When I buy one, I'll invite you over & we can entertain the neighborhood. I know a few police officers & I'm sure they would line up for a chance to fire a Javelin. Havoc without the headaches. I see what you mean on top down versus direct fire & I think the game models this. I'll watch next time I'm playing but it seems like if you fire at a building the missile comes in flat, armor & it arcs high & comes top down. I'm not sure if that was intended or not but it fits what you are saying. Thanks for the info. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clavicula_Nox Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 Dude, if you buy a Javelin I'll put the ensuing video on Youtube. As far as I'm aware, (which isn't very far, I should hastily add) the Javelin isn't overly complicated to fire. From what I have been told, I would consider firing an AT-4 to be more stressful (because of the unlikelihood of actually hitting a target unless you're aiming at a building, and even then, I've seen people miss those...). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP76er Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 Dude, if you buy a Javelin I'll put the ensuing video on Youtube. As far as I'm aware, (which isn't very far, I should hastily add) the Javelin isn't overly complicated to fire. From what I have been told, I would consider firing an AT-4 to be more stressful (because of the unlikelihood of actually hitting a target unless you're aiming at a building, and even then, I've seen people miss those...). That would be great wouldn't it? Remember the science fairs you had back in school? Yes, little Jonny here has built a working model of the Javelin ATGM, we're so proud of him. Let's go outside & let him test it on a school bus. Empty bus of course. Then the parents of the kid that built a working model of an AT-4 would get their noses out of joint thinking that Jonny is getting special treatment. Schools these days. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Charles and I used the individual Javelin trainer (real CLU and tube, sans missile) when it was still a near production prototype. Piece of cake to use. I've also heard of soldiers in Iraq who used Javelin, without special training (just unit cross training) perfectly the first time. It's a weapon that was purposefully designed to be user friendly and nearly foolproof. Charles and I were hitting so many virtual targets that the Colonel we were guests of (and in charge of Javelin training and doctrine) joked that he was going to find a way to draft Charles As for using these expensive missiles (IIRC $78,000 a pop) to whack inexpensive light infantry... happens all the time. I was at a conference with a Lt. Colonel who specifically authorized a Javelin to be used against an annoying sniper who was on a rooftop. When they got up there they found very little left of the sniper and whomever was up there with him. That was first couple of weeks into OIF. A while ago someone posted some figures of the numbers of Javelins the US and British have burned through. It was in the thousands. In fact, the Brit soldiers reportedly fired the entire wartime stocks within a few weeks of fighting in Iraq. Apparently some silly weapons acquisition officers at Ministry of Defense thought that these were anti-armor only weapons The fact is Javelin is a multi-purpose weapon and was designed to be that way. As Clavicual_Nox said the Javelin can be fired in one of two modes. Top-Attack is the standard mode for taking out armor. Direct-Attack mode is most useful for hitting short range targets or those which have vertical weaknesses rather than horizontal ones. For example, a pillbox's weakness is its firing aperture, not its roof. That sniper kill I mentioned above was done in Top-Attack mode. All in all... an amazing weapon, even if an extremely expensive one. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 All in all... an amazing weapon, even if an extremely expensive one. Steve And yet, still infinitely cheaper than the Mk. I soldier, so, when in doubt, hose 'em off, boys. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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