Pacific World Campaign

[SeaMonkey]

Damn it! Must be a day of "good decision making". Heck JDF2 I thought you already had this magnificent specimen being a vet from "the beginning". Been spending time with SAS I assume....how goes it?

Vypuero, you're right, the Japanese did think the Americans would not allow them a free hand in the SRA and would go to war as ABDA, hence the attack. There were some entities in the Japanese High Command that believed they might get away with it, but the other voices were too loud and the clock was ticking.

Really, I'm just trying to provide "food for thought" so that eventually we end up with a game that's balanced so that either side could win knowing in retrospect that the Axis didn't have a chance unless there were a possibility of "conditional surrender" variations. I think the SRA scenario presents such an option within the realities of "what ifs" for WW2.

Where are my historical scholars? Anybody out there! We can't assume our creators have examined every viable possibility.

[SeaMonkey]

Vypuero, you could delay the deployment of the KB if the PH option is taken, allowing for the time for return plus refit. Of course the IJN did have some light carriers to help with there expansion right after PH so I would allow them one CV group.

If the option is not taken, then the entire KB is available for initial actions, turn of Japan DoW of USA.

Assuming the PH option is taken, wipe out the USN BBs at PH, plus damage to the installations and aircraft. I mean who wants to fight such a choreographed action, there's no SC skill to it, barely an exercise!

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I actually haven't booted up SAS in months now. The interface is horrendous, the action is too abstracted, the AI (both the computer's and "yours") rather hopeless. I had some fun designing ships and such, but overall it was a very unsatisfying game. If anyone remembers SimCan and how assiduously they would try to model fog of war, limited command and control, well that's kind of what SAS is.

The economy has pretty much prevented me from splurging on new games since then. Like I said once I have a nice long open time period I'll get PT.

[SeaMonkey]

Let's address the movement and subsequent conflicts that occur with naval assets. What I would like to see, subsequent to adoption of saving APs, is a large movement allowance for naval units, say like 25 APs.

I've found through testing PZAA that naval units with large APs tend to perform their historical task of patrol more realistically in conjunction with waypoints. A player could task a patrol route through the use of waypoints and while going about that path engage revealed enemy units, costing ...say a couple of APs for the combat and then continue on the designated path until all APs are expended.

A great feature for naval recon and indeed you could have a drop down menu for the unit that allows certain order options like aircraft and CVs have.

I've thought about seazones, but I've come to the conclusion that I like the ability to maneuver naval assets much like tanks on the desert, we just need to give them greater flexibility to react or to continue on, avoiding combat. Might serve to bring "the search" to fruition.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

That would require a serious overhaul of the entire system. A long waypoint path is basically what SAS has, but I'm too old-fashioned to relinquish direct command and control and depend on my AI inferiors (pun intended) to fulfill my general battle orders. Glad to see that you don't think seazones are any good tho.

DLing game as I speak...

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Alas, the depository is acting up. Any alternate DL sites? [CMMods is history]

[Hubert Cater]

John, what seems to be the issue? I would suggest contacting the webmaster is the issue persists.

[SeaMonkey]

Hey John, if your trying to dl Nupremal's World Campaign, I have version 1.03 on my memory stick. Its a pretty big file so I'm not sure it will email, but I'll try if you want.

Currently, I believe the latest version(1.05) is experimental(as they all are at this point), but has some flaws that may be changed back.

send me a pm at btaylor@camincargo.com if you want to try.

[Nupremal]

1.06 will be available soon if someone wants to try it.

[SeaMonkey]

I'm wondering.....can I get this 1.06 and also continue my game with Rambo using 1.03 while running the new version against a new opponent?

Keep both in my campaign folder without conflict?

What changes are you making?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Got the latest off the depository, going to reserve judgement until I play it some more. Only real quibble is the relative lack of Japanese convoy routes for the American subs to raid-historical results for the Silent Service will be rather hard to come by. Of course a lot of that is due to supply convoys not having to run the gauntlet at all (vs. MPP convoys)...

[Nupremal]

Put as many as I could in because it is limited in the number of countries. Otherwise there would be more.

[SeaMonkey]

This is another reason we need that LOC(lines of communication) layer. Subs and surface vessels would serve to interrupt the supply lines of islands, reducing the efficiency level by 10% / 1 supply level per naval unit straddling the LOC.

Of course air assets would be needed to support the blockades and there would be a reason to sorti your naval task forces to lift the enemy infringements of those LOCs. I won't mention those sorties would need land based or CV air support if you wanted to guarantee their success.

Then again...there are no guarantees in this life, but you see where I coming from with regards to making the island chains of increasing importance.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Alright, 2 years into an Axis vs. Allied AI game (thus I won't comment on the AI which I know is being worked on), here goes...

0) This is obviously a very ambitious scenario, and kudos for what must have been a crapload of work to get it to function halfway correctly. Trading a seamless map for larger scales (which is what Big Al did with his) is a worthwhile swap, even if it leaves travel arrows all over the place, and cramps the Atlantic a bit. To try to balance the two main theatres would challenge King Solomon.

1) I'm not sure the alternating 14 day turns works well at this scale. Barbarossa was over almost before it began (early June being the first completely clear day)-it's August 29 and I'm quite a bit behind the historical pace despite tepid AI opposition. The distances are just too great and supply lags behind the spearheads at the default vanilla pace, which is a big problem. While I haven't done anything in the Pacific yet, of course, I also fear for what may happen there, as ship movement greatly outstrips sighting distances.

If you cut it back to 10 day alternating turns, and drop ship movement accordingly, I think we shall get something a bit more playable and historical. 14 day simultaneous might be even better, even tho it would double email file swapping and playing time. Seasonal length turns would be too Eurocentric, naturally.

2) How the Axis minors get triggered is problematic. Yes, they all come in by June '41 (not sure how the many diplomatic chits I invested helped that-none got to the magical 90% level before June), but the late entries make taking the Yugos/Greece out before Barbarossa almost impossible. I think having the half-strength units is a good balancing feature, so keep that, just move the dates back some, and instead of chits invested at start, have some popups where the game offers to activate the minors, for a fee and perhaps some Russian/US activation points (warning message the turn before can't hurt).

3) Likewise I'm not sure why the Japanese don't have any toeholds on the continent, which they historically did. Yeah, I get the Manchurian MPPs, no problem there, just there's nowhere to get a foothold (well, parts of SE Asia get activated) and get my troops in position before I make my move (vs. Russians or Chinese).

4) I think the Japanese get too many MPPs; I was able to buy out the entire IJN force pool (except for some DDs) by June '41. Al had many of the on-map units starting off at half-strength. Then again Pearl Harbor hasn't happened yet and I may be short on land units (was going to take a lot of islands and eschew the continent).

5) Not sure why DDs move at 10, CVs at 14, subs at a whopping 18 (Pacific side). Troop transports likewise can outrun their escorts.

6) I know research was hammered out upthread, but the one chit limit really porks intensively focused research, esp. given how capricious the random number generator can be. I much prefer how vanilla handles it-even 3 chits at a time would be fine. That way I can keep one chit on minor areas (like Intel) and crank up like Amphib or Heavy Tanks as the need arises. I think the historical record clearly shows that the major powers could get the tech in a reasonable time frame when they really needed and wanted it (drop tanks for US escorts, Type XXI subs for the Germans (absent the bombing campaign there would have been dozens out in the convoy lanes by late '44), the various British electronic gadgets, etc.), while still benefiting from lower level priorities here and there.

7) I don't like where Rommel starts (I do like free units don't get me wrong)-I have to waste MPPs to transport him to the Med front. Just put him in southern Italy, and then I have choices, like amphibing Greece with him.

For any and all of the above, I bow to the MP crowd. Just my 2 pence.

I really do hope Hubert is going to add true multiplayer, because there literally is far too much going on here for one person to handle (it can be done, and I have a hotseat buddy who will coop with me). Not a criticism, just an observation.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

One more thought about the Panama problem on P.4-would just having one set of arrows be sufficient? Now Rambo would have to send his carriers into the Atlantic one at a time. That way you can still swap a few ships here or there, but not entire fleets en masse.

[Nupremal]

I tried to fix the axis allied triggers some but there is some randomness to it. They actually usually do activate before russia - and for instance you should wait until there is a coup in Yugoslavia to attack, since that adds to their activation.

I like the research the way it is - occasionally you get stymied but overall it works out pretty well and you can't focus on one spot and buy exclusively air, for example.

The movement rates are re-designed to take into account endurance - and the subs are high because they had long ranges, and it makes them more flexible and able to survive (otherwise they die too easily). I have dropped their strength vs naval too. DDs are slower for similar reasons - short endurance.

There are plenty of Japanese units that start on the continent they are just not active until Japan joins. Have not seen that they have too many MPPs at all in the game.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Thanks for the feedback-yeah the continental Japanese units activated in October '41.

Interesting design decisions for the naval movement-one issue is that destroyers can no longer screen and scout for the main fleets-I guess cruisers default to that role, as they did before Hubert gave us destroyers.

I'd still like an extra research chit-it's very slow going for the Japanese ampib units as they attempt to sail all the way down to the Dutch East Indies, even with the default bonus they get-losing one supply unit/turn as they go. I only got a hit in Amphib Tech, in May '41, no more until after all my landing craft had sailed.

[Nupremal]

amphib a garrison and destroy a port city with carriers, then land units with the port

[SeaMonkey]

John, as Nupr says, amphib a cheap garrison and capture a port closer to your objectives, then stage from there. I know that you end up paying for the transport also, but in this manner you have the benefit of air cover(possibly), and your amphibs won't suffer as much efficiency loss.

Don't forget to bring an HQ into the staging area also which serves to make a much more efficient use of the area, essentially turning it into a base of operations.

[Colin I]

Nupremal - just downloaded your world modification and played up to the fall of France. Its really great, you have given the series a far better historical feel and the strategic options really open up. The map is better, the use of garrisons is great, love that units seem a bit more mobile/agile.

Its a bit hard to get my head round the map fragments but I understand why.

One minor nitpick - do not believe the Dutch fortification should exist - I know they built one but it was very limited - I've walked along it - nothing compared to the Belgian forts.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I noticed that the Kriegsmarine has very little room for expansion-you can build the carrier of course, but none of the new battleships/pocket battleships (cruisers) which were part of the prewar "Z" plan are available. Is this to prevent an exploit of some sort? This may force the hand of Hitler to go east and forsake any real attempt at a Sealion (tho the Axis player could pull it off if he has enough air + long range tech and subs to protect the shipping lanes).

[SeaMonkey]

I'll let you know John, presently Rambo is scrambling to prevent a Sealion. All the pieces are in place although JJR has been doing decently with delaying the operation.

I'm about to press the issue, its spring 41.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

One more request: since the number of Japanese convoy lanes are limited by the number of conquered/controlled minors which can only have one MPP route to Japan, could you route one of the Japan-bound convoys south of the Philippines? Here is a good map of the historical convoy routes:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9657/p047tyi8.jpg

Doing this switch would help to model the convoys which did exist south and east of Manila, and thus open up the sub war a bit.

[jon_j_rambo]

SeaMonkey --- Dude, bring your SeaLion. I invite you.

Colin --- You walked on the forts in LC? What year?

JDF2 --- Yeah, more complex convoy rules & playability would be cool. How about airlift supplies too?

[Colin I]

Rambo - last year. I live in NL and my girlfriend is Dutch. Here grandfather actually cycled to the German border in 1913 and was relieved that the Germans did not test the effectiveness of his farmer's shotgun!

See:

http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php?page=part-ii-the-peel-raamline

I think the Dutch were not that prepared. Netherlands was neutral in WWI, did quite well out of trading with both sides, and on the German border there was some collaboration. This was unlike the Belgians that got stomped upon in WWI and, whilst did not coordinate well with France (both did not want next war fought in their country) did build stuff afterwards. Perhaps it was that or perhaps there is simply not the same level of defensive terrain (Belgium is a lot more hilly) but they did dig some defensive earthworks but these stood no chance. I know the Germans found ways circumvent the Belgian forts but these really were a bit more impressive.

Dutch canals did slow the Germans a bit - there was one case where German paratroopers dropped one side of a canal and their heavy gear the other so they lost the subsequent firefight. Some of the defences fought by the Dutch were quite good but the effort was ultimately doomed.