Open terrain, no enemies spotted yet, how to proceed?

[Yskonyn]

Ok guys, please enlighten me.

Picture the situation where the mission just starts and your units are in fairly open terrain. There are no hills to hide behind and you're coming up to a road with some man made buildup close by. Possibly hiding hostiles.

The front LAV has been hit just prior to mission start, but we do not know from where or with what? (Sounds familiar MikeyD? ). But aparently the reds know we're here already, placing me at a disadvantage right from the start.

I have two LAV's available each with one marine squad and I have a recon HMMWV with a HQ unit in it.

What's the best way to proceed? Or in other words, how would real life operations dictate to proceed. Remember that fire has already been opened, but we don't know from where.

Gamemap shows no hostiles yet.

[Delta228]

well, at least in my experience, there isn't much you can do in this situation but put your guys up there where the metal meets the meat. Try splitting your squads and having one move up while the other covers or provides supressing fire on possible hostiles, as well as using the LAVs to provide overwatch for yourb troops.

[Dietrich]

I would recommend, not spliiting the squads, but rather using the Advance command to have your squads move forward by bounds. But as Delta228 suggests, use suppressive fire on the nearest buildings, perhaps using Target Light to preserve ammo somewhat (or you could go all out and level the buildings; it depends on the ROE).

[Delta228]

Right, I totally forgot about the Assualt command (i think). Does the same thing but more efficiently .

[Dietrich]

Keeping squads intact (un-split) preserves their spotting capability, as far as I understand it.

...But if Yskonyn has LAVs, the accompanying squads are (if I'm remembering the TO&E correctly) probably scout squads, which can't use the Assault command because the typical scout squad is a four- or five-man team and Assault requires at least two teams of two men each.

[SlapHappy]

I'd like to formally expand this question by asking:

What of the fancy detection equipment that you MIGHT have access to (as BLUE) for spotting these potential targets? What is required to have these units uncover potential enemies before they've redecorated another armored vehicle with an RPG rocket? Time? Or is this not even possible without the enemy already exposing themselves by opening fire?

I'm still not sure what function these specialized units play in the game as a whole.

[SlapHappy]

Incidentally, this is an almost verbatim discussion that is going on in the "performing effective reconnaissance" thread.

[Yskonyn]

Thanks for the input so far.

Well the big difference between this and the recon discussion is that here the player's forces are already discovered and fire has been opened.

The mission starts with a LAV in flames and according to the briefing it was destroyed only a few moments ago.

So here you are in wide open terrain and the reds already opened fire.

The thing I was interested in was wether you would pull back first, hopefully out of weapon range and then start recon to get a fix on enemy locations or would you immediately press forward, pumping lead into possible enemy locations and try to secure the buildings about 300m ahead?

Consideration: almost 100% chance you're being targeted by reds with AT equipment.

[Falconander]

Basically a classic movement to contact situtation,

Most doctrine would say that upon contact you would form a line a try and gain superior fire power. But here, you do not see the enemy and they are in a position of strength.

If you are unable to gain superior firepower and advancing is suspect, you could fall back to defensive line and as they said provide covering fire onto the objective. You would than take part of your force and basically fall back and bound left or right with them to not only recon but possibly flank. (Think of a "C" shape.) They essentially attempt to break contact by falling back and bound around.

As your flanking unit engages, and draws attention, you can attempt to move your main line forward to a point where they achieve superior firepower. The flanking unit would sweep across the objective with the main force lifting fire as they assault across.

On the far side of the objective, the flanking force would pop smoke as they say which would signal everyone to go to the Rally Point which was away from the objective as most 'camps' have a TRP (Target Rally Point) right smack on them. So it is not a good idea to stick around.

An excellent an easily attainable source for anyone would be the Ranger's Handbook which if I remember correctly covers just about any situation in excellent detail. If you haven't read it and read this forum, it would be a good place to get some good ideas.

[donnieitaly]

Ok guys, please enlighten me.

Picture the situation where the mission just starts and your units are in fairly open terrain. There are no hills to hide behind and you're coming up to a road with some man made buildup close by. Possibly hiding hostiles.

The front LAV has been hit just prior to mission start, but we do not know from where or with what? (Sounds familiar MikeyD? ). But aparently the reds know we're here already, placing me at a disadvantage right from the start.

I have two LAV's available each with one marine squad and I have a recon HMMWV with a HQ unit in it.

What's the best way to proceed? Or in other words, how would real life operations dictate to proceed. Remember that fire has already been opened, but we don't know from where.

Gamemap shows no hostiles yet.

My initial answer would be to move forward and kill everything you see. But they usually do the same to you.

So, if you have Air Cover put in a very wide and brief area attack command way ahead of you and see if the jets/helos see anything to kill.You won't see what they see but you'll see smoke rising if they hit anything.

This doesn't work with arty since they just fire. Helos seek and fire.

[MikeyD]

This situation is why members of an infantry squad would rotate which man gets to go on point when they're out patroling. Its usually not fun to be the first to encounter the enemy. I'd say pick which of your units is most expendable, march them into the open then have everybody else ready to unload on the source of the fire ASAP in the hope of saving your sacrificial team. Think of those old war movies where a helmet on a stick would be thrust into the open to draw fire - do what you have to do to get the enemy to give himself away.

[Secondbrooks]

Without knowing this particular case more specific i'd say following. Guys out from vehicles, if distance is 300 meters to most expected location of fire i'd say make that 400. Not for small arms fire so much but because of RPGs.

If there is absolutely nothing from which you would get bit of cover while appraching village (is it village?) then you probably need to send one squad (i'd say squad not team, because they dont' pin down as easily) approaching it by hunt, while others providing overwatch, sadly your troops are rather small in numbers. Farther away you get enemy to open their fire better for you. So maybe recon by fire is wise thing (i don't use it but i'm not wise). Prepare to fetch your squad from there by LAV and smokescreens.

Overall sounds pesky situation. You lack dismounts, flanking in my opinion is no-go without very clear picture of enemy's where abouts and/or force to respond to surpprises. You seem to lack force, 2 (scout?) squads isnt' much, 2 LAVs ain't either. And you seem to lack intel abotu enemy.

[whispers]send HMMWV to take enemy fire[/whispers]

[Yskonyn]

Its good to know this is a 'pesky' situation! At least I will not blame myself too much for eating dust...

So just put the bait in front, let others watch and see the enemy take the bait, then open the gates of hell on 'em.

[salwon]

The helo idea is a good one, but they won't find anyone holed up in the village, just vehicles.

One squad out is a good way to go - keep your lavs at ~500m, advance one squad 100m on hunt, then bound the next one up 100m past, lather, rinse, repeat. You might want to use smaller movements as you get closer - say, once your advance squad is 250 away, only advance in 50m chunks. This way one squad isn't left completely hanging where a few bursts will take them out. Keep a lateral distance between squads, about 25m or so. You can cover more area, and one RPG won't ruin both squad's day.

If you're feeling particularly aggressive you can move up the LAVs, but I don't like to do this until I'm completely sure there aren't and surprises waiting for them. They can area fire at 0.5km out just fine.

You should be able to identify a platoon+ this way, but unless you have something heavy don't stay engaged for long. Once you know what you're up against pop smoke, bring up the LAVs, and get the scouts out of there. If the enemy has anything more than a single squad covering the approaches, you need more than scouts/transports to take them out.

Last thing: be prepared to write at least one letter home after the mission!

EDIT: rereading the OP, I'm not sure if you have scouts or two full squads. Two marine squads could probably handle up to a platoon, depending on their level and the level of the enemy. But really in a situation like this, you need some dedicated covering fire that's not in a moving coffin. A platoon's MG squad would be optimal. Unless the mission is to just identify the buildings that the arty will destroy, but that's much easier

[Taki]

As an sarcastic Ingame COmmander i would advise you to drive aroudn like mad with your cheapest and useless Units (imho Recon HMVVs) and wait till they draw Fire from a stupid AI Unit

PS: And its absolutly valid Tactic as most Experts here suggest. Read the other Threat about spotting. You wont find an answer on what the US Military is doing else to spot enemys hiding.

[MikeyD]

For those without the Marine module here's the tactical situation being discussed. Open ground across to a highway with a 'suspicious' hill after that. What do you do, what do you do?

[Gen. J-sun]

I wouldn't go up that hill...yet, probably southbound through the town at the Bottom cross route 3 and climb the hill near the south limiting exposure, and the buildings in the south provide marginal cover. Not to mention you can flank the frontal positions easily.

[MikeyD]

Heh heh heh... just what I wanted you to do! :cool:

[Gen. J-sun]

Yeah played through my idea, saw the surprise you had for me. Tactical victory, minimized losses. Who knew I'd like having a LAW once.

[Pandur]

So just put the bait in front, let others watch and see the enemy take the bait, then open the gates of hell on 'em.

hm, thats as it allways was and allways will be i guess. think of CMx1 and a hiden front with cover arcs, waiting for "something" to come in their reach. so you naturally took the smalest unit possible or at least the least importent one.

i dont know whats so complicated about to "find" the enemy. thats the easiest thing in the game. you simple close in with your objective, at some point, if the enemy decides it will do, he attacks you and there you have him.

thats a rather odd thread here, talking about the obviouse.

[Yskonyn]

I think you missed the point here Pandur.

Its not about finding the enemy, but proceeding knowing that the enemy already spots you, but you don't see him yet. Rather different situation than just finding the enemy without contact being made.

[Falconander]

Some don't go for the obvious sacrificial lamb type of idea and would rather have some tactics than the old WWI let's charge out of the trenches at the machinegun and see if we make it.

If the enemy decides when to open fire, I would think he will have you rather than you having him. Sounds like he already wasted one of the vehicles so he has eyes on the objective already and looking for some choice targets.

Anyone can find the enemy like anyone can find a land mine. There are just different outcomes to how you do it.

[Pandur]

sure thing, but when hes up against a reasonable opponent the chance to spot first when noone shoots at you in the first place are slim. and to calculate with it would be not good as its a rare incident.

so you give him a target, he shoots at it, preferable from as far away as possible. thats the way to do it and it will work 99,5% of times

i dont say you need to do a WW1 charge but a fire team will do.

now when you want to cover ground the enemy observes and you dont want to get shot at but only when youre at the position of the attacker out of whatever reason. use arty smoke or vehicle smoke if the wind blows in your attack direction. make a rolling smoke cloude and advance behind it. however you negate your range advantage yourself that way.

[Pandur]

sorry for the double post;

Its not about finding the enemy, but proceeding knowing that the enemy already spots you, but you don't see him yet.

isnt that actualy the same? think about it... . you wander around the landscape, enemy sees you, you dont see the enemy!? whats your goal than, id say to find him. so is it about finding the enemy or not?

[MikeyD]

Okay - modern day real world Marines could fly a hand-launched mini drone in that direction of the suspicious hillside and hope to get a useful video image back. They could do Vietnam-style 'recon by fire', knock down every suspicious clump of trees within their LOF. The 'sacrificial unit' concept is somewhat less sacrificial these days compared to WWII with modern body armor. In WWII when the point man got shot he got shot!