Open terrain, no enemies spotted yet, how to proceed?

[Falconander]

Yes, the rolling smoke is about the best idea yet beyond the Helo idea in the beginning. I don't use enough smoke as it stands right now.

Not to belabor a point though there is a difference in what they were saying about spotting...

1) In one situation no one has seen each other and both are essentially moving to contact (Not the case here)

2) In this situation, you have come under fire but you do not know from what direction and you have no eyes on the target but they have bead on you. Not ideal and from what I can tell, this is the situation here.

Your movement will be different in these two situations

[Yskonyn]

Yes, the rolling smoke is about the best idea yet beyond the Helo idea in the beginning. I don't use enough smoke as it stands right now.

Not to belabor a point though there is a difference in what they were saying about spotting...

1) In one situation no one has seen each other and both are essentially moving to contact (Not the case here)

2) In this situation, you have come under fire but you do not know from what direction and you have no eyes on the target but they have bead on you. Not ideal and from what I can tell, this is the situation here.

Your movement will be different in these two situations

Exactly the point.

[Dietrich]

I suggest: Deduce which buildings have LOS to your troops and recon by fire on those buildings. Alternately, when facing open terrain with clumps of trees, recon by fire into the trees.

...those old war movies where a helmet on a stick would be thrust into the open to draw fire...

Interestingly, that trick is not just the preserve of old war movies -- I've seen a German sniper training film from 1944 (commissioned by the Luftwaffe High Command, oddly enough) which illustrates the gamut of tactics, from the good ol' helmet-on-a-stick trick to fairly elaborate (and with only readily available materials) dummies which looked fairly convincing at sniperly range.

[MikeyD]

dummies which looked fairly convincing at sniperly range.

I recall reading a report from back when the Iraq occupation was in a bad state of overstretched U.S. soldiers 'manning guard towers' with dressed-up manniquins. They tended to keep the enemy from approaching, gave the snipers an unkillable target to shoot at, but generally kinda sucked at actually observing their assigned area.

[Fenix]

I'd say +1 to artillery smoke. I haven't seen the map you're talking about, but it reminds me of a typical "assault fortified position" situation. What would i (probably) do? Arty smoke if available, then assault move with your squads to the nearest building, while using your LAVs to provide cover fire on the buildings that have LOS on your men before entering the smoke cloud.

If arty smoke is not available, then you would have to make the smoke cloud "manually" by using the smoke on your vehicles.

This simple tactic proved to be quite useful to me in many frontal assaults where i can't flank the enemy positions, or if i suspect that an enemy may be hiding in a block of buildings, for example.

I don't usually use the "recon by fire" technique, and i don't want to see my little pixel soldiers being wasted just to find the enemy position

[MikeyD]

In the scenario a Marine force is caught in-transit. Mortar support does eventually catch up but there's a 5-10 minute gap to work around. The thing about smoke, it doesn't suppress or drive off the opposition. Once your units cross the gap you're liable to lose more men in close assault than you would've with your sacrificial unit. What's that Tom Hanks line in SPR? He tries to convince himself that each man that he orders to his death has to helped save 10 men down the line.

[Dietrich]

To call for arty smoke on the area where there may be hostiles lying in wait would, as MikeyD points out, make things more dangerous for the troops you send into that area. But to call for arty smoke on the area behind or next the objective would separate the hostiles in the objective zone from supporting fire from adjacent positions. In other words, you can use arty smoke to isolate an area until you have time to capture it or eliminate the hostiles therein.

[Fenix]

MikeyD, i was replying to the question of Yskonyn, not yours .

Or is it the same map? Maybe i lost something in the way xD.

Anyway, that pic you posted, which map is it from? It sure looks good and i'd like to give it a try .

@Dietrich: i haven't used arty smoke to isolate the hostiles, but it seems a good tactic. Enemy loses LOS while you manouver your troops to gain terrain advantage... I'll try it if i get the chance

[Dietrich]

Using smoke to isolate objectives can also be done with vehicles' smoke mortars. (The LAV, I've noticed, for some reason launches its smoke much farther from itself than any of the other Army or Marines vehicles.) The principle is the same: use smoke to screen from enemy fire your forces while they are on the move or otherwise relatively vulnerable.

[MikeyD]

Yskonyn's initial post:

The front LAV has been hit just prior to mission start, but we do not know from where or with what? (Sounds familiar MikeyD? ).

Scenario USMC Hills and Highways. The posted terrain pict was grabbed off the scenario in the editor.

I agree Deitrich has hit on something using smoke to isolate units!

[Fenix]

I knew i was loosing something xD. I'll download it as soon as i get home so i can try myself the different tactics posted above.

[stoex]

Yeah, MikeyD, Hills and Highways was a killer for me - I think I restarted that battle 5 or 6 times until I found a strategy that worked at all, and at that point it was already getting a bit gamey since I knew where quite a few of the enemies were. The actual careful and slow tactic I ended up getting my Total Victory with should have been more obvious to me from the outset.

--------SLIGHT SPOILER ALERT!!!------------

The key was to find the very few spots on my side of the map where I could actually be certain that my units were safe from enemy fire and then work veeeery slowly out from there. Losses were always too high when I tried to advance without having spotted the key enemy units. My tip: Methodically scan the map from your side AT GROUND LEVEL. Find out where you can move without being seen (there's fewer places than you think, which limits your strategy to the only thing that really works anyway!). Despite this you will still suffer losses here in any case, just make sure they aren't your key assets!

[MikeyD]

It does my heart good to hear Hills & Highways killed you!

With that scenario I tried to come up with what must be a common enough tactical situation but with no obvious answer, unlike those scenarios where the map is tailored to steer you towards the obvious tactic.

[stoex]

It does my heart good to hear Hills & Highways killed you!

MikeyD, that's what you make 'em for, isn't it?

[Yskonyn]

I ended up trying to sneak on the two side of the map where on the right side I ended up in the nasty surprise that was discussed earlier in the thread.

2nd try was to sacrifice the HMMWV to try to get a tally on the bad guys. Worked only half assed and resulted in subsequent high loss-rate later in the scenario.

I am still looking guys... Don't throw in the spoilers too soon, please.

[MikeyD]

Hey, I built the frickin' scenario and I'm still looking for a decent way around!

That's the nice thing about CMSF, its not a 'puzzle' game where all you have to do is find the key. There's no right way to do it, there's no wrong way to do it.

[Dietrich]

'No wrong way to do it'? Whenever I lose more than a couple guys in a squad at one time, I consider that the wrong way.

Providing the enemy AI multiple possible setup zones not only increases the replayability of a given scenario but lessens the feeling of 'well, now that I've restarted this scenario a couple times, I know right where to aim my artillery at the outset....' If you don't necessarily know where the enemy is even on your third or fourth time playing a scenario, there really is no 'key', as MikeyD put it.

[MikeyD]

I recall the talk given to U.S. platoon leaders by their COs at the outset of Gulf War 1. At the time they didn't know how willing Saddam was to fight it out. The platoon leaders were told up front to expect 30% casualties going in. In a 'hot' war you expect that you'll lose more than a couple guys in a squad at a time taking an objective. If your good luck and the enemy's bad training combine to keep your casualties low that's icing on the cake - but not to be expected.

[Dietrich]

Okay, so losing merely one or two guys per squad at a time is expecting too much. I find, though, that my playing overall in CMSF is rather different than in any previous CM game.

In both CMBB and CMAK, in which I prefered to play as the Germans (or the Finns in the former case), my attitude in attacking scenarios was <furious shouting>"Los, Männer! Vorrücken! Die letzten beißen die Hunde!"</furious shouting>, and if my pixeltruppen took 30% casualties on the way to the objective but, after a volley of Stielhandgranaten and some wielding of Spaten, captured the trench or building, es ist nun einmal so (that's just the way it is).

In CMSF, however, I feel even more commanderly concern for my pixeltruppen. I'm conscious that I'm leading one small part (a company, a platoon, or even just a squad) of a strictly volunteer army which can ill afford casualties due to Sturmangriff, never-mind-the-cover sort of charges. If one guy in a squad goes down, especially if he is wounded rather than killed outright, I feel beholden to send a couple guys back once the rest of the squad has reached its bound. When a squad's commander gets hit and the unit's rank changes from a sergeant to a corporal, I think, "Damn, they got [insert surname here]." In short, when I suffer any casualties, I think, "What could I have done differently?"

[stoex]

Sorry about the spoiler, Yskonyn...I did put a big warning on it and left blanks, but I know it's not always easy to not read some of it anyway.

[Yskonyn]

Sorry about the spoiler, Yskonyn...I did put a big warning on it and left blanks, but I know it's not always easy to not read some of it anyway.

No matter, but with all the different screen resolutions you're bound to read stuff that way. On another forum (Egosoft) they have a special 'spoiler'-tag you can use which makes the text invisible unless you select it.

I don't think you can do it here. But again, don't be sorry, it's not your fault. Besides like already discussed, there no such thing as 'the key' for a scenario. I meant it lightly anyway.

[BlackMoria]

I've played this scenario and was successful on the first go around.

I made several base assumptions. The squad with the smoked vehicle was observed and the rest of my force was not.

I then did a terrain study prior to starting the clock on the scenario. I made some deductions on the most likely areas that enemy forces would be observing from (as hindsight after the game showed, I was 90% correct).

I made a plan to try to define the enemy, which meant slowly and methodically moving scout dismounts into observation points on the intermediate high ground. My dismounts found a few enemy positions this way and hit them with arty.

I would 'flash the bait' by having a dismount break cover and move quickly from one cover point to another in a short sprint. The enemy would usually strike at the lure with some fire that other dismounts could observe or see muzzle flashes or heavy weapon backblast from, giving me something to fire in the general direction of or engage with arty.

I can usually wrinkle my LAVs into concealing hull down positions. If they saw something and engaged it, in short order I would pop smoke and reverse into dead ground because my experience has been the heavy AT or RPG shot is going to be coming.

This scenario was a tough nut to crack but using the method above, crack it I did, with minimal losses. Slow, methodical and patience is the key. This scenario will punish the impatient player and the player who thinks they can 'hammer' their way to the objective area.

[Los]

Someone might have already said this, but always get down at the eye level of your troops. What looks wide open at 100' up might have little folds and undulations at eye level to take advantage of.

Los

[Falconander]

Spolier Alert

Spoiler

Spoiler

I was looking for maps last night to play and came across this one. Not realizing it was the one we were talking about until today.

First thing I did was pop smoke, break contact and head for tree lines to give cover to my armor. I realized from the Op order that help was on the way so my job was to stay low and recon.

My LAVs went to hull down and spotted the AT on the left ridge and opened up on them. I figured that would be a good place to start, since they (enemy AT) had a good view and were likely dead by now. I probed my scouts down the left side of the map hoping to go up the left side of the ridge. One team was plowed into my a tank shot. I figured good enough and hunkered down. I moved my AT unit into position but before he could get view of the tank my reinforcment arrived.

First wave went into the tree line in the middle of the map with a sniper and machine gunner covering the village to the right.

Second wave of reinforcements came and they occupied the small cluster of buildings at bottom middle of the map. From here I has eyes onto the first cluster of buildings in the middle of the map at the base of the hills.

By this time had moved armor to the overwatch on the left ridge looking over the buildings. One of them got popped by mobile mortar but I artied the hills and swept infantry up the hills in the middle.

I figured there were tanks between the forest and the far hills so I reconed out the far side of the forest to see the two tanks there. My JAV took one and arty KO'd the other one.

Satisified that I had superior firepower and good overwatch positions I started sweeping across the map with infantry bring up vehicles as I felt things were secure.

That bit about scooting your LAVs back is crucial. Use the trees to your advantage, had many a round blow up in the trees around my vehicles.

Later in the map a small force comes from off-map on the left ridge but your overwatch on that ridge should have about 3-4 vehicles and 2 scout teams plus a Jav. I turned and took to the trenches to hold them off.

Fun map and I think smoke and taking things slow helped a lot. Plus using area fire with arty using 3 barrels on the hills kept those guys at bay. Usually don't use 3 barrels but there were ? and icons all over the place. Area targeting with the Mech units also halped significantly.

[stoex]

More SPOILERS!!! (Same spoilers as in the last post actually)...

DON'T READ

LOOK AWAY

SPOILER COMING....

Wow, Falconander...today is a day of differing recollection for you and me. Reading your AAR on Hills and Highways, I'm thinking 'What Javelin? Did I have a Javelin in that one?' I'd be willing to swear I didn't....I remember wondering how I was going to take out the two static tanks on the right without Jav's. I ended up getting one with the TOW LAV and the other with an AT-4 from the clump of trees in the middle.

Anyhoo, I did the whole battle much like you did except for that JAV thing. And I really liked this scenario as well. Really intense and tactical, no rushing anything, and some surprises toward the end when I thought I was just about done (like the third tank in the village, and the enemies coming up the hill from both flanks, first left, then right...)

Great stuff!